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Are the Stars Worth it?

I may not be too old yet, but I have had the pleasure of seeing some of the top players in the world play for Spurs during their prime years.

Players such as Ossie and Ricky, Hoddle, Gazza, Lineker, Teddy, Ginola, Klinsmann, Berba , Docherty and more. We signed some of those players, at the height of their career, during a time when there was still some sanity in football. Today however, I suggest that we could never have signed Gazza, Klinsmann or Lineker. One of the big stories of the summer transfer window was the story of HULK. Not the Marvel character, but the 26 year old, Brazilian, Porto striker, who with presumably the world at his feet, for some reason chose to go to ply his trade in Russia with Zenit.

This may sound a little disingenuous to the Russian league, but why would a player like that choose to play in Russia at the height of his career instead of one of the bigger leagues. We all know that he had other options, at least us and Chelsea were linked. Similarly, we have been linked to Huntelaar in the past, but he chose to sit on the bench at RM and AC Milan instead. Why?

Our story was the usual, linked to lots of big names, didn't land any of them, but should we really be worried? Are the stars worth signing anymore? The emergence of the 'Sugar Daddy' clubs has completely changed the face of football transfers. Clubs like Chelsea, City, PSG and the Russian clubs are awash with money and are caught up in their own power struggle for football domination. Without any form of regulation, transfer values have soared, and wages have become obscene.

HULK transferred to Zenit for a reported £32M, whilst RVP is reported to be on Rooneyesque wages. Meanwhile back at Spurs Lodge we were negotiating with Porto over a £22M deal for Moutinho. This is a player who in 2010 moved from Sporting to Porto for a reported ~£8M. In two years, his value supposedly has increased by £14M. When the wages are factored, would this transfer have made any sense for THFC? Do the numbers stack up?

This story can be repeated for almost any big name signing, and Spurs are now in a place where they just cannot compete with the rich clubs for the big players anymore. Any attempt to do so will just result in financial disaster for the club. I cannot remember the last truly big named player we signed via a straight forward transfer. Ade was a loan/perm, VDV was a lastminute.com.

Players themselves have also IMO changed. There was a time when players wanted to play for the shirt, whoever they played for, now it seems it is only for money, and high profile. Does it matter that much to a player if he earns only K80 per week as opposed to K120? How much can anybody spend? Surely a player wants to play.

With this in mind, how does the club go forward and compete with the best? There is no way that I want to see THFC do a Leeds or Portsmouth, and reading the net spends of PSG (~£120M) and even Southampton (~33M) it is clear that if FFP rules are to have any bite, then these clubs and others could be in trouble. Southampton could be in trouble anyway, with that type of net spend.

I truly don't think that the stars are worth it anymore, and as much as the fans love a big named signing I don't feel that they provide value for money, and it is not worth the club being screwed over financially just to make a statement of intent. I feel we need to get back to the scouting and development that brought us Bale, Modric, Berba, et al. Many European clubs such as Ajax and Porto, sell their best, but they nearly always have quality to replace them with.

I would like to see THFC through good scouting and a strong academy, create the stars of the future, that way we will always have quality and will not have to pay stupid money for it. So, over to the forum, are the stars worth it? Are they affordable, or is it a thing of the past? Does anybody think that signing a star player is a statement of intent and is this important?

Written by Cleveland ARTSPURS




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Writer: Cleveland ARTSPURS Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Friday September 7 2012

Time: 12:47PM

Your Comments

what is happening to this site????
Big Ron
I mean that cinema ad taking over the screen
Big Ron
I remember writing something some time ago about the idea of having a Tottenham team walk out in our new stadium, filled with players that we had either brought through the youth ranks or bought in at a very young age and nurtured and improved them as players. much like we have with Bale and walker for example. as long as there are mega money owners and there always will be, we will never be able to truly compete with theur unfair and unreasonable spending, so we either have to accept second best and perhaps top 6-8 every season or look to bring through our own. That might still make us a best of the rest team, but at least we would get pleasure in seeing our bringing through our players. To counter that though, I would say how disappointed, though not surprised at the hugely unfair criticism jake Livermore has received this season, which perhaps makes my earlier comments wrong. I imagine there are few more loyal spurs players than Jake and I bet he is first in and last out for training, yet he is given massive stick by some and that is totally wrong in my opinion
oxfordspur
or is it just my mac that is affected?
Big Ron
what do you mean Big Ron?
spu 4 life
Oh i see it's an add for LAWLESS, just close it top right, i think it's a le scum link
spu 4 life
its an ad for "lawless" starting in the cinema
Big Ron
By the time our new stadium is built, Bale will be playing for real madrid and jenas will still be going out on loan.
spu 4 life
Though nothing to do with me, Sorry about the Lawless *****e, it is a set up from the promotors or something that has fecked up. only supposed to show once a day or something. Think it is only a problem on some operating systems and I know it is a real pain on Macs which I am using
oxfordspur
Big Ron is it a flashy mac, you know the ones people wear in the park, on late nights?
spu 4 life
Is this film any good, might be worth a look, vital lawless..
spu 4 life
Ox i couldn't agree more with what you just said. I think Jake is a quality player and still developing. I see him as similar to Darren Fletcher. I will support the lad and i actually like the way he breaks up play and makes the simple passes. I also think he has been the better of the 2 CM this season (Sandro). this is just my opinion. But i think some Spurs fans would look at him differently if his name was Livermoreo from Brazil!
JonnyArdiles
Sorry about the double post!!
JonnyArdiles
Ox i couldn't agree more with what you just said. I think Jake is a quality player and still developing. I see him as similar to Darren Fletcher. I will support the lad and i actually like the way he breaks up play and makes the simple passes. I also think he has been the better of the 2 CM this season (Sandro). this is just my opinion. But i think some Spurs fans would look at him differently if his name was Livermoreo from Brazil!
JonnyArdiles
Big Ron - I saw that. P*ssed me off that I declined and they still re-opened it a couple more times over the top of VS. Poor stuff from the site owners to let that sort of thing happen. I'm also on a MAC.
muttley
What bugs me about this subject is that MAN U have had the best of it for years and years will big signings, now they can't compete with City and Chelsea etc they're calling for changes. As a spurs fan we've had our share of big names, but the gap is widening. I think something should be done - Start by shooting the Agents and take it from there
SPUDMAN
Yeah, good point Ox and I agree with the sentiments of the article. Let's take pleasure in seeing our squad perform at such a high standard, despite the lack of dollar. Although, there's probably teams with less than us moaning about clubs like Spurs with all that money. That's professional football, I guess. Let's do everything to encourage true Spurs players, which for better or worse includes Daws, Jake, etc. It's not just English players though, it's clear who cares about the club.
SamParadise
Ox you are dead right and Im a cul-prate of the "slating Livermore" crew... It is wrong!! I guess frustration and optimism on my part, gets mixed up and comes out with the pointing of a finger. So for that I do apologise. However, he is not that good a player (yet) and should be squad player rather than 1st choice. IMO
scamps-spurs
I will be honest in my opinion about Livermore. He is a decent squad player, a player after one or two years with us, will be very dissatisfied with lack of first team football. I don't mind him staying as a squad rotation, but I can see him demanding first team football in a couple of years. I watched him, he can tackle, but most often commit the foul too, he can make simple pass, but once he tried the better option, he lose the possesion. Sandro at least close down opponents more urgently, support the attacks, try to build attacks from the back. Livermore will be O'hara version 2.0 in my opinion. You can say he is loyal, but once lack of first team football, he will not be as loyal.
what_sux
Good whole-sum article OX!!! (if there's ever such a thing) However you look at it... times have changed and we need to change with it or unfortunately be left and satisfied with Mid-table. Is any player on the planet really worth 50k a week? Its a sport at the end of the day but its lucrative and thats why its run as a business first and foremost... I think. Big signings mean more revenue in t-shirt sales, sponsors etc etc etc. its a snowball effect and if we can keep plugging away with finding hidden gems in amongst the chaos... Why not spend the money? You have got to be in it to win it and we have not done badly by not being in the Champions league if you look at the quality we have signed and have held onto.
scamps-spurs
this article will have frank 'spend money like water' having a go! like to know how he is in real life, bet he's as tight as the preverbial ducks anus.........................easy to spend other peoples money.
jabbatheyid
nice article by Cleveland ARTSPURS, hopefully proper scouting will be the way to go.
what_sux
Oh Sh!t... for some strange reason I thought it was OX who wrote this! Shame on you OX! lol Well done Cleveland ARTSPURS...
scamps-spurs
Even Chelsea with all their money found it difficult to buy Hulk because he is also partly owned by some investors. That is not allowed in England, but it`s ok in Russia.
dannylane
Cleveland ARTSPURS - I seem to remember Bent, Bentley and Modric being pretty high end transfers at the time. We was even on the verge of signing Arshavin for a record transfer.

I agree with your sentiments surrounding the sugar daddys but some players are just simply worth it. Lionel Messi, Eden Hazard, Iniesta, Christiano Ronaldo, The real Ronaldo, Thierry Henry and players alike are all worth their weight in gold. They perform to such high standards that their wage and transfer fee is justified, as it will propel the club into super status and perhaps pay itself of through advertisement, tournament winnings, advertisement and ofcourse sponsorships.

What you mustn't confuse is a world class player, with an overated one. Rooney, Benzema, Hulk, Moutinho are all a grade below the former mentioned. The parent clubs tend to THINK that they are of the same calibre but the obvious is they aren't. Spurs tend to look more closely to these second rate superstars and ofcourse the parent clubs will demand first class superstar money. The same could be said with the way we conduct our own transfers in the sales of Carrick and Berbatov who were never world class, but ofcourse good players in their respective positions for what they can do with a football.

Similarly to your Porto - Moutinho reference, Modric's price skyrocketed after some very good performances in the PL. This is the way of football. People buy players according to form and age rather than class. You only have to look as far as Michael Owen to see this but ofcourse there are exceptions as was the case in the Torres to Chelsea deal.

Drogba in my opinion is still worth his weight in gold. It's still possible to sign "superstars" without spending masses but i'm equally happy to spend fortunes given the player targetted is the real deal, and not just a good player at the peak of his career.
RyanHotSpur
what_sux - Great comment and it is ofcourse why Arsenal have been able to spend so long in the top four without spending masses on players. Unfortunately it isn't possible to be a runner up for the PL title without spending masses of cash. Chelsea, City and United will always be up there with the best until A. transfer regulations are brought in (wage caps etc) B. Another team joins the sugardaddy bandwagon or C. Those clubs somehow manage to get bankrupt...
RyanHotSpur
OX - Livermore may well be loyal, first in last out at training etc, but getting top 4 and CL has nothing to do with "loyal". it's about whether players are good enough.
Hot_Spur
Hot_Spur - Although you are right, when you have a toss up between Huddlestone, Livermore or Jenas, considering Livermore is younger and puts more effort into training, i think i know who i'd select.
RyanHotSpur
What we need to do more of is buy players like Moutinho while they're still valued at £8 million.
flipper
Berbatov not world class??? There has rarely been better.
Hot_Spur
Unless you've got really good scouts 1 in 100 turn good, so in the long run you might aswell have spent 40 Million on Eden Hazard
RyanHotSpur
Hot_Spur - Please tell me that you don't seriously think Berbatov is world class? Some of the PL's elite would struggle to be classed in the world class category such as Andy Cole and Alan Shearer and your seriously suggesting Berbatov is world class?
RyanHotSpur
Ryan - he may not be now but he was 5-6 years ago. His skill and brilliance were often breathtaking.
Hot_Spur
We sold him 4 years ago for 30 million!!!!! of Course he was world class!!!!!! Even when he had a bad season he scored 20+ for United. Fergy did not utilise him the way he should have been because of Fergys blue eye Troll Rooney (who is also World Class!!!) ... Please Ryan... Have a break Have a Kit-Kat
scamps-spurs
Berbatov is world class - end of. Best touch in world football... rarely does a players style and skill encapsulate the word class quite so well. Usually agree with you on most things Ryan but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Berbatov, modric and king are the only three world class players to play at the lane since Klinsman... and possibly Ginola at a push. Then you've got to go back to Gascoigne and then Hoddle. Basically 5 in circa 25 years!
SanchezSpur
P.s Rooney is NOT, i repeat NOT world class.. most over rated player in world football... why? because he's english so he MUST be a superstar right? Wrong.. unfortunately for England. Wrong.
SanchezSpur
What we do have now is a world class keeper who isn't going to start... pffft. Ridiculous. Man of the match or no man of the match... Friedel shouldn't start against Reading.. Need to get him bedded in before the likes of Utd come calling. No point waiting, throw him in. He's a superstar signing and it'll give the whole team and the fans a boost... do it.
SanchezSpur
Forgot Linekar - best striker in world football late 80's/early 90's - ooops!
SanchezSpur
Sanchez - And if you go back a bit further than 25 years - Jimmy Greaves
Hot_Spur
King i'll agree, shame about his form, Modric i'll agree, never seen anyone dictate a game aswell as he does and supports it with a combination of dribbling and passing ability, Berbatov, fantastic player, never up there with my favourites of all time. I did want him back at the lane even now, but to be honest he isn't in my top 10 PL strikers of all time let alone world class.

I guess however it's a matter of opinion and how low you set the bar. It would be hard to suggest Berbatov is world class but Rooney never was.
RyanHotSpur
Bale and Berbatov are very near the mark players, but i think to be fair judged on their consistancy you can't call them world class. They had the ability to be world class, but you only had to look as far as Berbatovs attitude or Bale's selfishness/form to differntiate them from the rest.
RyanHotSpur
Dirty Sanchez... Rooney not world class??? Oh well, then i wonder why he as been in the top 10 goal scorer's of the EPL since 2005/6 season
scamps-spurs
Haven't seen much of Berba since he left spurs, I will be interested to see how well he does for Fulham. If he still has the deft touches it will be worth watching Fulham just to see Berba.
Hot_Spur
Thanks for the comments guys, and thanks to OX for publishing this article. @Ryan, fully agree about players like Messi and Ronaldo. They are top drawer, WC players and are an asset to any team. The problem is we would have no chance of buying them. If we got them young, we couldn't keep them. I wanted to find out what people thought about the making a statement of intent argument. I hear people say it here all the time, but is it really worth it? Does it really mean anything? Lerner made one when he bought Bent for 24M, FSG also when they bought Carroll for 35M. Crazy money for average players, Carroll is now on loan at W. Ham only 18 months after signing for L'Pool. DL takes a lot of criticism over his dealings, but you can see how hard it is to appease the fans with signings, whilst trying to get value for the club.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Hot_Spur - He will score bundles for Fulham if they're midfield still holds any strength without Dembele and Dempsey. Like i said very good player, but i wouldn't compare his form from 4 years ago to the likes of even some of todays world class let alone history. I'd sooner have had Falcao, Et'o, Tevez, Aguero, Cavani, and the list goes on.
RyanHotSpur
not to mention top 15 assists of ALL time in the EPL... (However I still cant stand Rooney) just saying
scamps-spurs
Rooney has been the key striker for a team that has won multiple premierships, won and been in multiple FA Cup and CL finals. Been nominated for multiple individual player of the year awards, from England to Europe to world level. A top scorer and creator. I think he is world class. Berbatov's career isnt as great and I can see why people might think he isnt, but technically, there aren't many better. I believe some of you guys have set the bar too high, to the point where you only see iconic, legendary players like Ronaldo and Messi as world class, a mistake ive made in the past also.
Guyver
Cleveland ARTSPURS - Indeed we have little to no chance of signing them. Like i said buying the fake superstars is dangerous. They never live up to their price tag (Bent, Bentley, Carol)
RyanHotSpur
Well said Guyver!!!
scamps-spurs
Guyver - Seriously that's not the case. Cavani, Drogba, Torres (at his best) Tevez, Falcao and we're only talking players of the now. If i look back in time and pull out the legandaries i can name you 100 players better than Berbatov and you'd find it hard to argue. He is very good, but not a world beater hence he hardly featured for United and wasn't even approached by the likes of Real or Barca.
RyanHotSpur
SanchezSpur You`re talking $hit .It can`t be your opinion when facts say otherwise
big cockeral
whilst I absolutely agree with the sentiment of the article let me just state that the sentence: ....."and Spurs are now in a place where they just cannot compete with the rich clubs for the big players anymore. Any attempt to do so will just result in financial disaster for the club".....absolutely wrong....sorry...ENIC are absolutely more than capabable of signing big name players for over inflated transfer fees and ludicrous wage demands....whether they want to or not is another question...if Joe Lewis had the same ego as Abramovich then Spurs would not want for anything....if an Oil sheik wants a scalextric set he buys Ferrari..if he wants a cowboy and indians outfit he buys Mancity.....ENC could fund the most expensive team in the Premiership...but they dont want too, why? because success is not at any price...success must be achieved on the cheap..........Joe Lewis is not interested in Football..period..he has been looking to off load Spurs for some time now....quote from harry Hotspur: (The reason for our inactivity and everything else is that I’ve been told Spurs have been sold to the Kharafi Family. They are from Kuwait and they tried to buy Liverpool once before. The main man there is the 29th richest person in the world. Deal is not done, but its close. Should be announced next week"..... it didnt happen but the intent was clear......the only reason why he has allowed the new stadium to go through is because he knows the Club may increse in value especially with a stadium that has yet to get the naming rights...Levy is Joe Lewis's accountant...Levy knows slightly more about Football than Lewis.......we are never going to buy big at this club, not now and not ever... as long as Joe Lewis and Levy are at the Top Table.........
OyVeh Maria
Ryan, I said I can understand why people might say Berbatov is not world class, it would be hard to argue that he is. You'd have to form a subjective argument based on his skills rather than look at his career achievements, but with Rooney, that's not the case. He's done too much in his career for him not to be labeled as world class.
Guyver
Ryan - Forget Falcao he is currently the best striker on the planet by a Country mile. However, some of the other's you mention, coincidently I was reading an article on Berbatov which included statistics only a couple of days ago, comparing him with the likes of Tevez, Aguero, etc and Berbatov's statistics came out miles better. I'll see if I can find the article.
Hot_Spur
Holy sheeeet... Big C tell it like it is homeboy!! lol... Its 4.30 here in cape town and Big C has put me in the mood for a Pint or 8!!!
scamps-spurs
Of course we can't afford the real top stars, we of course have a potential sugar daddy in Joe Lewis, a multi billionaire but he is not prepared to invest seriously in the football club. Having said all that you can still make good progressive signings without trying to break the bank, but you need a plan in place to 1) Know exactly what you want to do. 2) Identify the type of players you need, to put in place your strategy.3) Scout those that are available, at a price that you can afford. 4) Find out if they would come, and how much they are looking for in wages (tap up their agent). 5) Contact their club, carry out the necessary negotiations. 6) Sign the player, job done. If you look at for example the Newcastle team they have signed Kroll, Tiote, Cabaye, Cisse, Ben Arfer, and Demba Ba, all without spending megga money. We knew that we would be losing Modric 6 months agao, and should have been ear marking a list of likely replacements then. This is exactly the way Wenger works at Arsenal, he loses top players on a regular basis, but repairs the damage, and still qualifies for the CL every season. Firstly you need a club playing ethic, but you don't get that by the chairman hiring and firing 7 managers in 10 years.
Frank
Guyver - Lack of pace, lack of teamwork, lack of spirit, lack of ambition to win the ball back, lack of hair, take your pick. I shouldn't be able to say more than one of those about a world class player, yet i can name several.

It's a matter of opinion because it can easily be said "if you haven't won a fifa world player of the year award you're not world class" but in my books Berbatov is quite far down my list rather than very high up.

If we're comparing him to Spurs players of old, yes he is up there with one of OUR best, but simply not one of the best the world has ever had at any stage to offer.
RyanHotSpur
The comments regarding world class footballers is so stifling, that it makes me wonder if any of you know how to play football???
scamps-spurs
Hot_Spur - I'd like to read it however statistics can be cherry picked to suit an argument, which is why most debates surrounding football are never ending. If you'd like to compare Berbatov's stats at Spurs vs Tevez at United i'd say that was fair. Aguero hasn't been on the pitch long enough in a fit state to be able to make logical comparisons, but watching him play you only need to look at the difference in their skill sets.
RyanHotSpur
All those weaknesses Ryan and you can name several more, yet with all that holding him back, he earned £30m signing for 1 of the greatest teams in the world and was top scorer for them. So im sure you can see the argument from the other side. He's like the Mike Tyson of football, ie, he's exciting, flashy, undeniably talented, but his legacy will always be in doubt because of his mental weaknesses, lack of spirit and motivation. For the record, im on the fence with Berba..
Guyver
Ryan - Tes you can "manipulate" statistics if the author is so minded, however, since goal scoring stats are based on pure mathematics, they cannot be manipulated IF PRESENTED PROPERLY. Still looking for the article.
Hot_Spur
@Oyveh, you highlight an interesting contradiction that appears to "flow" through our club in that we do have a billionaire owner, but he won't invest in the first team like Ambramovich or the Sheik. It's like owning a Ferrari, but being too tight to buy the petrol for it. It makes me wonder what Joe Lewis would do if Spurs ever did get into any serious financial trouble.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
@Frank, what you said about making progressive signings is so true. It's the only successful way forward for our club under the current business model. Most people on this site are intelligent enough to see that, and I am sure that fans in the wider Spurs community are also. The problem is that DL and ENIC still seem to think that wafting a LLorente, Moutinho, or an Aguero under our collective noses is enough to convince fans that we are still dining at the top table of world football.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
re the article, id be ok with us never breaking our transfer record for as long as the current market stays as it is. But thats only if we are constantly producing or buying Europes top prospects, on an endless conveyor belt of talent, so that losing players like Modric won't have as much of an impact as we'd always have the next best thing looking to step up. As hudd was supposed to do when we lost Carrick. Easier said than done im sure.
Guyver
Cleveland, if you look at what Joe Lewis and his Tavistock Group ownes, THFC is hardly the Ferrari!
dannylane
Guyver - I hope your not basing your judgement on the 30mil paid by united who also happened to spend stupid money on Carrick. If you look at his whole career he had one good season in the PL which was with United where he scored 20 goals in 32 apps. His best years were at Bayern from 2003 till he joined Spurs but arguably that league is/was weaker at the time.
RyanHotSpur
Hot_Spur - Spurs goals are something like 12 in 33aps 15 in 31 aps, Manchester goals are something like 9 in 31 12 in 33 20 in 33 5 in 7.

Look at Tevez first two seasons at City when he was at his peak. Much better player. Statistics don't lie you say?
RyanHotSpur
Statistically Berbatov is not world class. I can see as a Spurs fan why you would suggest such a thing as he was one of our best for a very long time. I liked Berbatov and i thought he had a great first touch and had a few tricks up his sleeve but to be perfectly honest he was far from what i class as a world class player. You might aswell say Michael Owen and Carlton Cole are world class if you're going to suggest Berbatov is.
RyanHotSpur
Dannylane, they may own over 200 companies in 15 countries, but to me Spurs will always be the Ferrari lol.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
"Are the star players worth it". How do you measure the value or worth of a footballer, or a house, or a second hand car, or a work of art. There are no standard criteria to work to, so the value is the best guess of somebody experianced enough to deduse what you can sell it for, therefore the true value is what the market is prepared to pay for it. That is the only objective measure, once we are reduced to opinion, and comparison, that becomes totally subjective.
Frank
Frank - I think you need to dig a little bit deeper than to bring economics into it. Is Andy Caroll in todays market worth 30mil of Spurs money? No. Is Aguero worth 30mil of Spurs money? Possibly. Is Falcao worth 30 mil of Spurs money? Yes.

It's not a difficult question unless you make it.
RyanHotSpur
Ryan - In Berbas ManU career he scored 48 in 108 appearances. That's gettin close to 1 in 2 which not many strikers better. HOWEVER, many of Berbas appearances for united were as a sub, that makes a BIG difference. The correct way to construct goal stats is goals per minute played, NOT goals per game. I don't have the goals per minute stats to hand but they are by no means below world class.
Hot_Spur
Cleveland ARTSPURS, you are right we are the victims of a "three card trick" every transfer window with the name game re. top players, phantom deals that don't materialise etc.etc. but it works, becuase we fall for it every time, or some of us do.
Frank
I don't have a judgement Ryan, im quite undecided, if anything I lean slightly more to your position. Im really just saying that he has so many obvious flaws, that there must be something special about him that would make 1 of the greatest managers of all time spend that sort of money on a 28 year old. Its this "special something" that people are focusing on when they label him world class. I can understand their point of view.
Guyver
Cleveland...as long as it`s not a Bentley!
dannylane
Ryan - don't twist my words. I did not say "statistics don't lie". Go back and read what I ACTUALLY said.
Hot_Spur
Ha ha ha, good one Dannylane,
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Ryan - the stats you are presenting are NOT presented correctly, read my post above "goals per minute"
Hot_Spur
I've found some TRUE stats, goals per minute. 2011/2012 season top scorers, well look whoo comes out on top - no not RVP - BERBATOV, Berbatov 80, Cisse 88, Balotteli 107, Rooney 110, Jelavic 111, Dzeko 115, Aguero 116, van Persie 117. Well how about that then.
Hot_Spur
Hot_Spur - You've just tied in his cup games against leyton orient and co where he managed to score hatricks. Let's simply look at his career vs PL opposition to see how world class he really is. We can look at minutes if you like i still don't think he is miles better. If he isn't playing a full game most of the season his club hardly regards him as world class.

Anyway bored of Berbatov now, great player but a waste of talent who ruined his career with his attitude.
RyanHotSpur
Hot_Spur - You're cherry picking again mate ;)

Look at his goals per minute for Spurs, assist ratio, pass percentage, etc. He is very good at finding the back of the net, that is all. That doesn't make you world class in my books sorry.
RyanHotSpur
Guyver - Yes he can put the ball in the back of the net. We need someone who can pass the ball very quickly at the moment. They may be terrible at everything else but i'm sure we'd value a player like that beyond his worth simply because it's what we need.

Berbatov's value IMO was not made solely based on his ability. Manchester stopped our progression to their benefit and signed a player that could put the ball in the back of the net given space. Do you think they signed him for anything else?
RyanHotSpur
In answer to your question Carroll is only worth what Liverpool can get for him, I,m not aware we are interested so won't be testing the water, but no he is currently worth a fraction of £30M. Aguero would most cetainly be worth £30M of our money, unfortunately Man City would not sell him for that, they would ask nearer £40M or more. Falcao at the moment would command the sort of fee we can only dream about, so the question re. £30M is totally irrelevent.
Frank
i think that's a ridiculous assertion Ryan and you won't find anything anywhere that would lead you to believe that. What were Man Utd scared of? A player in Berbatov who apparantly isn't world class? He's just another striker, so why would they buy him to slow our progress. Its a contradiction as well as a baseless assertion.
Guyver
And at 28 its not like he was at the beginning of his career. He was bought because of his talent, no other reason.
Guyver
Like i said a few days ago. With ENIC as owners we CAN'T compete. Thats just the reality. Doesn't matter how many trophies we sacrifice in pursuit of the modern day obsession that is 'Top 4 status'. Arsenal can't compete and they make CL every single year. Whilst ENIC are here and whilst the regulations allowing crazy sugar daddies to do what they do remain, we just need to do our best, compete on all 4 fronts, and have fun.
StillRickyVilla
Ryan - No not cherry picking, those are LEAGUE GOALS. They are also presented correctly. i.e. goals per minute which is the only fair way to present stats and CANNOT be manipulated. You cannot argue with mathematics Ryan - no not even you. :-)
Hot_Spur
IMO a world class player is a player that is worth the entrance fee alone .Yes you pay to watch the team but certain individuals really make you want to go & see .

IMO Berbatov was well worth the entrance fee ,he was world class ,sublime ,,,,so was Modric ,Rooney ,Gerrard ,Ronaldo ,Scholes, Beckham ,Vidic,Alonso,Van Persie,Henry ,Bergkamp,Petit,Viera,Lungberg,Tevez,Hart,Kompany,King,Lampard,Drogba,Terry,Torres ,Roy Keane ,Scmeichel ,etc etc etc ........... the list goes on ,,,then you have your on the verge & as good as Hazard ,Aguero ......
Ginola was world class on his day ,but he wasn`t a world class player .

World class players are consistently brilliant ,at that is what separates them from the rest ,consistency ,& the ability to make the impossible look so easy .

Berbatov wasn`t world class for Man Utd ,but he was for us & his country ,amazing .Rooney too is world class for Manutd ,but isn`t for England .I reckon England could win the world cup if Ferguson managed it ,gets the best out of English players .
big cockeral
Guyver - Not solely, but would add value as it would benefit the club. Surely slowing your opposition down in their progress is worth a couple of mil? Signing Vermaelen from Arsenal for example could make our chances of a fourth spot alot better.
RyanHotSpur
Guyver - Strangely they spent 30mil benched him most of his career at United and sold him for 4mil. That was either a very bad judgement of ability or the figure wasn't purely assessed on his skill.
RyanHotSpur
Hot_Spur - I don't disagree with the fact he can score goals. Does that alone grant him world class status? You don't ask for much do you?
RyanHotSpur
RyanHotSpur We weren`t even a threat to Man Utd & never have been so your argument is already flawed .
big cockeral
Hot_Spur - and truely i thought Berbatovs time at Spurs was better than his time at United and statistics would prove otherwise, but what would you agree with, the maths or your judgement of skill?

Like i said before, you can't solely judge a players ability based on stats, there are too many factors to consider to compare players so easily. If Berbatov played for Wigan or another team of that calibre, the stats would reflect a little differently. I rest my case as i have work to do.
RyanHotSpur
Ryan - My opinion of Berbatov has nothing to do with being a spurs fan. I tell it as I see it. I am not one of the many sentimentalists on here that think players such as Livermore and Dawson should be in the first team, based on sentimentality because those players are "loyal".
Hot_Spur
Whose the most talented striker Spurs have had since Jurgen Klinsmann ?
(who was also world class )
big cockeral
The days of 'competition' are gone. Its ALL about money. Anyone on here can basically write down the final PL table and the CL semi-finalists TODAY and be only a couple of placings out at most. Its boring. The only 'excitement' is whether we make 4th position or not to replenish ENIC's coffers with the CL money. Waste of time and boring. Better to have a few beers, go for the craic and get to games for the atmo.
StillRickyVilla
big cockeral - We was on the up but if you don't think it played a factor that's your opinion and the only person that knows for sure is Alex.

As for this argument it's pointless. It's one persons opinion against anothers which has no end. Judging a players ability on the "world class" matter is mostly always about opinion. Some will agree and some will disagree. With the players on the boarderline there is never a is or isn't fact.
RyanHotSpur
I think it would be a better idea to bring this question to a broader community outside of just Spurs fans. Big Cockeral i already noted he is the best we've had in ages, that still doesn't compare him to the likes of Pele.
RyanHotSpur
Ryan - no my assessment is not based purely on goals, although it could be argued that as a striker, goals are his job and if he scores enough he should qualify as world class. However, the stats above show the he was top scorer last season for time on the pitch so even though he probably isn't as good as he was 4 years ago, he's still top of the pile. Apart from goals, as I said earlier, my assessment is based on skill, brilliance, sublime touches, which were all breathtaking.
Hot_Spur
RyanHotSpur There`s a difference between being world class & being one of the best players of all time .

The way you become one of the best players of all time is to be one thing "ahead of your time " .Pele ,today wouldn`t last 5 minutes ,but he was ahead of his time , doing the unthinkable then ,which is normal today ,Pele took a shot from the halfway line & missed ,Beckahma did it & scored ,all about being ahead of your time ,bringing new skills ,,Gazza was this ,so was Bobby Moore ,Charlton,Maradonna,George Best , ,Lothar matthaus ,Maldini , Van Basten etc etc ...Messi ,Ronaldo & Iniesta now they are 10 years ahead of everyone else .They are better than world class ,they become legends .
big cockeral
Hot_Spur - I agree with almost everything you say, but he is on par with Paolo Di-Cannio for me and that's a compliment seeing as he scored one of the best volleys i've ever seen. It's a matter of opinion pal but i just don't think his consistancy makes him a world class player. I'll agree with you to the extent that he had 1 world class season at Spurs and likewise 1 at United. That's the most you'll get out of me i'm afraid.
RyanHotSpur
As Big C has said. he had the ability to make the impossible look so easy. That kind of ability is the hallmark of all "world champions" and "world class" sportsmen of all sports.
Hot_Spur
Shame Fifa didn't think so ;)
RyanHotSpur
What do you mean by that?
Hot_Spur
IMO the term World class gets a little distorted when one 'rates' the players from your own club. All suporters rate their player more than other clubs supporters will. We probably would never rate Walcott above Lennon simply because he is Arsenal. That was just an example.

I find it interestin when one set of supporters dislikes a player and then that club buys said player, many supporters will now rate that player .

Also I think the term World Class is over used .

Roll on our evolution though, hopefully with three points at Reading.... COYS !
ro6ertj
Anyway, I would take him back in a flash. There was a rumour that spurs tried to get him late Friday but Fulham beat us to it. May not be true, just media talk.
Hot_Spur
Please can someone explain to these pro-Palestinians protesting against Israel hosting the UEFA Under-21 European Championships next year, holding it outside our ground, it has nothing to do with THFC, Yes we have a ''Gazza Strip'' his shirt, shorts and socks he was wearing in the cup final vs Notts Forest. That's it...
spu 4 life
Scouting and Academy (in that order) are the way to go forwards especially for clubs like us on limited resources. As stated above Porto always seem to replace quality with quality and this is down to having a top notch scouting system especially in South America.
El Jefe
Raging AKA Former Tottenham manager Harry Redknapp is back in football after accepting an advisory role at League One outfit Bournemouth.
spu 4 life
As for Moutinho going up £14m in 2 years, didnt Dembele go up £10-12m in the same 2 years?! Pretty much the same to me. Also Dembele is a star transfer within the Prem as he looked ***** hot at Fulham and was linked to a few top clubs like Utd and Madrid. Could be said to be a mini coup that we got him, indeed we had to pay his release clause to get him - so shows it was not easy and am sure Fulham wish they had set it considerably higher now! Lloris is another mini coup, French No.1 and got for a relatively expensive £12m or so when all things added up! Verts is another - the article talks of Ajax and we just nicked their captain and best player for under £10m - anyone doubting he will atleast double his fee if not more in the coming season's and the same goes for the other two?! It shows stars can be got for relatively good prices but need to shop around and be ruthless similar to what Levy tends to be!
El Jefe
MOUTINHO, AVB and Cash in the bank LEVY - Today comes via The Metro, which claims that despite a deadline day failing to sign Portuguese midfielder Joao Moutinho, Andre Villas-Boas and Daniel Levy are working to complete the signing for the January window. Although sources aren't linked, The Metro does give a tasty idea of how Spurs might clinch a potential transfer early: "Spurs are still willing to pay £25 million, and will give Porto extra if they sign an exclusivity contract, giving Villas-Boas the first option to buy Moutinho when the transfer window re-opens in the New Year." We haven't seen many excluvisity contracts given in transfer negotiations, but it would be a way to get in Moutinho early in January for a potential move, rather than facing another bidding war and transfer deadline hand-wringing. The Metro further claims that Chairman Levy will fly to Porto within the next two weeks to finish the deal. Obviously, after August's saga Moutinho is a well-known player, and he would have a major impact at Spurs. But do you think this is really happening, or just more speculation from the tabloids?
spu 4 life
As for Hulk, great player and a superstar but cost an absolute fortune and in a much inferior league last season got 16 goal's. Cut to Demps, playing in a much superior league and well established in it and got 17 goal's last season all be it playing a few more matches and cost only £6m! Although not a superstar by any imagination, the number's do speak for themselves both on and off the pitch as does the Prem experience he brings!
El Jefe
@El Jefe. Vertonghen is the type of transfer we should be doing, yes I agree with that. His TF fee was affordable and he has undoubted talent. The only questions is will he adapt to the PL. I think he will. He could easily double his value within 2 years. Good business for us. The downside is that one of the big boys will come in for him if he is a success and we start again. His fee doesn't represent the same kind of risk that say the Moutinho signing would for us. 22M and probably on high wages, if he flopped or got injured, that would be bad news. I don't understand why Moutinho's fee has gone up so much in 2 years, he hasn't really uprooted any trees. I can understand why RM paid 80M for Ronaldo, but Moutinho at 22-25M. I don't know. Same with Dembele really. I don't know how much Fulham paid for him, but at the moment it is all potential. I don't think that his goal and assist stats were anything to write home about for them, however he is a good player and seems to have found a position that suits him. I think he's a good signing and will do well for us.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
spu 4 life - Could be media bollox, how would they know what Levy might do in two weeks? However, if AVB wants Moutinho badly enough, it could happen. I think he would make a huge difference, he can provide that important link between defence and the forwards and he hasn't got to learn AVB's way, he already knows it inside out. Also it not just what Moutinho does, it's what he would allow Dembele to do i.e. play a more forward role where he would terrorize defences.
Hot_Spur
Cleveland - With respect mate but why does everybody base a players ability/worth whatever on goals and assists?? Dembele, just like Modric, Xavi, Pirlo, was playing a deep midfield playmaker role. None of the aforementioned players score many goals. it's not their job to score goals. Fulham payed 5 million for Dembele, they trebled their money.
Hot_Spur
IS THAT THE MOST RIDICULOUS POLL IN VITALSPURS HISTORY ??
big cockeral
@Hotspurs, Unfortunately, goals and assists are the only quantifiable productivity factor for a player there is it seems. Too much fantasy football I think. I agree with you that it's not all about that, but that is what people remember. 5M bought and 15M sold for Dembele = good business for Fulham though.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
+++++++++++++++BREAKING NEWS +++++++++++

World class manager Harry Redknapp is now managing Bournemouth HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA back where he belongs HA HA HA HA HA HA HA :):):):):):):):)..................................................................................................................(yes i know) ......
big cockeral
Cleveland - Not true mate, there are many other types of stats on the internet for midfield players, passes. tackles, etc etc. which are quantifiable. On your reckoning Xavi, Pirlo etc are crap players coz they don't score many goals.
Hot_Spur
Cleveland - Good business for Fulham money wise but frankly I think Martin Jol would rather have kept the player. I watched Fulham vs W Ham and they weren't a patch on what they were against ManU. They're missing him terribly
Hot_Spur
BigC - If he does for Bournemouth what he did for us, they won't complain. For all his faults he got us of the *****.
Hot_Spur
Hot_Spur That is true ,Harry did well for this club .What i don`t get is why he let it all go to his head & become this big headed arrogant**** . If he would have kept his feet on the ground & loved the fans as much as himself he would have done alright here .But nobody can deny the amount of luck he got .
Maybe you make your own luck because under Harry we won games when pants ,but we also had spells of brilliance .The points harry picked up were not always deserved though
big cockeral
Oyveh Maria, agree with many of your sentiments and I don't doubt that Spurs were being offered up as there was a fair amount of talk in North America that Steve Nash and a few other sports personalities who are Spurs fans were trying to put together a group to buy the team. While I would wholeheartedly support such an endeavour as they all know sports inside and out and would understand what type of player/personality helps you from a marketing etc standpoint, the idea of some rich sugardaddy who just wants a toy to play with for a while scares the bejesus out of me. It's not win at all costs, it's sustainable winning. There is no quick fix to Spurs short of dumping someone's personal money in to the pot to be served with dinner. There is no return on that. It's not a sellable product at value and in the end you take a loss and leave someone else to strip out all the assets to look after debts. That sets a franchise back 5-10 years at a minimum and you may never recover. I would be very worried if that were to occur.

I also think it is very unfair to brand ENIC as "cheap". I would suggest that we are prudent and expect proper value for money. Waiting to get 2-3M more for Modric and waiting to pay 2-3M less for Lloris may all seem brinkmanship but in the end that 5M is often the difference between a 2M profit versus a 2M loss. The numbers the other day that I saw had us bringing in about 2M in total more than we spent. In other words, we lived within our means. Had we signed Moutinho we'd have been 20M in the hole and once again are likely to see salary increases of 10-20% which would all result in a huge loss. Even CL next year would not dig us out of that hole let alone buy more players. Player salaries and transfer fees have to come out of revenues and if we don't bring in 50-60M more, I fail to see where we can spend that much more. Yes, Abramovich and the Sheikh can do it as can others. But does anyone on here think that Southampton can afford a 33M net spend or PSG 125M? It is all potential suicide for the clubs. That money will likely not even be covered by the PL monies. They will wind up in the hole and if they go down, it will be at huge losses. Pompey didn't get market value on any of their players. I just hope that UEFA don't have to watch bankruptcies across Europe before they decide they should enforce the FFPR. COYS
peterballb
@Hotspur. Didn't Dembele start his career at Fulham as a striker? It's not until recently that he has been dropped back into CM. His goals and assists as a striker for them wasn't that good. That's what I was referring to. Dropping him back to CM is probably a better use of his talents as shown in the Fulham Vs ManU game. I remember we did something similar with Paul Stewart. Anybody remember him? We signed him as a striker, and he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, then we dropped him into CM and he was a revelation there, then we sold him once he came good. It's all about finding a player's true position.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
On Moutinho, they could do a pre-deal now though the third party ownership still needs to be sorted out. Personally, I do not think that will be done as we will want to see where we are at in 4 months and we'll want to make certain that Moutinho is what we are missing. I believe Dembele can do the same job so I don't see the point if he works out. Isco and Fabrice is still where I'd be looking. COYS
peterballb
peterballb The reason why Moutinho didn`t join was down to the Tevez & West Ham fiasco .They had to pay Sheffield UTD well over £10 million in compensation as the the Tevez transfer was proven to be illegal .Hence no more 3rd party ownership in England .

Hulk went to Russia because over there the 3rd partner ownership is allowed .If Moutinho was a 100% owned Porto player he owuld now be a Spurs player .In England it`s frowned upon
big cockeral
But BigC, here's the rub, if Porto wanted to sell him, why would they not have taken care of the third party issue before. They knew he wanted to go to England and they knew we were in for him. Surely we knew there was third party ownership. I just don't get it all. Then again, I'm not necessarily buying all that was printed given that the player went with his team to Algarve. Hardly what one would expect from a team planning to sell a player in the next few days. I still don't think Moutinho is the answer and I don't think we'll regret not signing him. COYS
peterballb
peterballb If you own 85% of your house & your wife owns 15% of the house ,then you cannot sell the house unless she agrees to everything .You can`t do anything without her approval .Porto wanted to sell but ...............In England they can`t keep that 15% no more ,everyone sells .
In Russia only the 85% sell their 85%,the 15%carries on as normal
big cockeral
peterballb Then why was told to get on a plane seperate to his teamates ?
big cockeral
oh ok then i will do another...


...........Adebayor...............Defoe...............
..............................................................
...Bale..............Dembele...........Dempsey..
..............................................................
..................Parker/Sandro.......................
.............................................................
...BAE.......................................Walker....
..............Verts...........Caulker.................
............................................................
...................Fester/Froggy.....................

THE WAY FORWARD LADS........

DEFOE & ADEBAYOR HAVE TO PLAY TOGETHER...
Yidmarks
Players want what we all want - financial security, and the ability to spend their twilight showing off their medals and telling their grandchidren how great they were. Can you blame them when megabucks are waved before them and they can get medals whether they play every week or not. Berbatov would have been a Spurs legend by now had he stayed, forever welcomed and adored. Now he is a footnote in MUs history but does he care? Maybe he will in ten years time when depression sets in as happens to so many we're led to believe. Not that I'd wish that on anybody. Sorry this is a bit maudlin, but it really upset me this year when the PL and CL were bought by you know who.
Love totty
BigC, there are so many conflicting reports. Not one had him in London or anywhere but with his teammates. I don't doubt there was a plane at the ready, BUT, with third partyownership rules, there never was a fee agreed if the third party never agreed. As you stated, all or nothing. There was nothing. No deal. I'm still not fussed. He is at his maximum value and there is no guarantee he can settle in England and perform here even to the level he did in Portugal. He has some very good games. Some Europe games come to mind, but he also goes completely missing in others. He is nowhere near the quality of Modric. He is not a replacement. COYS
peterballb
I seem to remember that Pompey got a lot of £ms for ther players sales, yet the money vanished.. even HArry asked what happened to the transfer sales on players he signed and were sold for a profit. .
Block D Spurs
If our club is lying to us then our club is as good as dead .

If you think you`re club is lying then does that not put you in an awkward position ?

Yes they are a business but no way were they lying about Moutinho ,it`s propaganda gone wrong .Propaganda is a powerful weapon to fool the masses ,this was not propaganda
big cockeral
Block D Spurs Harry was getting a percentage of Pompey player sales .Why do you think they bought & sold so much ?
big cockeral
Yidmarks, don't agree on that. I'd have Dempsey behind Adebayor in a more advanced (as I always believed it should be) VDV role. Bale and Lennon out wide. Dembele and either Parker or Sandro in front of the back 4. Walker (or Naughton if Walker does not sort himself out and quick), Dawson (until Kaboul is back or Caulker but Dawson for now), Vertonghen, BAE and Gomes or Lloris in net. Friedel is done. He is incredibly slow to his left now and awful on anything across the face of goal. Yeah he does not let it go through his hands. That said I can't help but feel that three of the four goals conceded (give him a bye on his 18th penalty conceded in a row) could have been saved by a shot-stopping keeper. Just how I see it.

4-4-2 is the way to go late in games and that's when Defoe should come on to run at tired defences. Dempsey needs to play, but not at the expense of Lennon, rather at the expense of Defoe who would then come on for either Dempsey or Adebayor depending on which one seems to be making better inroads. 4-5-1 rather than a 4-4-2. COYS
peterballb
peterballb It was the fifa rules that scuppered the Moutinho deal not EPL
Are you aware of them ?
big cockeral
My take on the Moutihno deal. I think that there was a fee agreed, and the club wanted to sign him. It was reported on the BBC probably early afternoon. THFC may or may not have been aware of the 3rd party issue, and may have thought that it could be sorted, however as we know, it wasn't. Moutinho flew to the algarve with his team mates as by that time, everybody probably knew apart from SSN that the deal wasn't going to happen. No conspiracy, just my opinion mind.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
wow, vertonghen scores from a free kick and bale forces a great save from a free kick, two spurs players accurate from a set piece, strange days
Guernman
No point discussing the Moutinho deal when we don`t know the facts. Everybody is guessing. When a third party ownes % in a player it`s a nightmare. If there is different rules in different countries, it`s even worse. FIFA should sort this out but we all know how they work. For Tottenham and Levy`s sake, I do hope we knew about the situation with Moutinho before the last day of the transfer window.
dannylane
BigC, any club worth their salt does not put any information out there officially unless there is a reason to do so. What would ENIC gain from confirming or denying the Moutinho issue? The deal was not done. Levy rarely does business in the rags in an official capacity. I don't doubt that they throw up test balloons so to speak, but they do not speak as Spurs. As to the rules, s. 18 would seem to suggest it is illegal which makes me wonder how Portuguese clubs can do so. Are they not subject to FIFA? COYS
peterballb
peterballb ... talking about the time of the deal ,,, the deal could have been done by 1:00am but fifa rules say it had to be done by 12 am . Don`t you remember the Dawson & Reid deals ? done wat after 12 ,this one had to be done by 12 due to fifa not the epl .
big cockeral
BigC, the entire system is a convoluted, incomprehensible mess that is further complicated by the respective Leagues. There should be one set of rules and it should be limited to deals done before the start of the season and then in January. My call would be for a uniform, transparent system. Not going to happen. The owners, agents, players want nothing to do with that. COYS
peterballb
peterballb .....We will see in January ...but if people want to be Spurs fans then it`s their choice .I don`t put half as much in football now as players are & money are ruining the game .Sky sports is the most i go now with about 7-8 games a season ,used to be 20-25

You only get exploited by Spurs when you allow yourself to get exploited .
big cockeral
Moutinho got 2 assists for Portugal tonight!
El Jefe
Look at the Adebayor deal. Is it 3 or 4 years? Telegraph says one thing and Sky says another the day later. Did he really get paid 4M as a signing on bonus from us and 8M by City to get lost while City was still to top up his salary for the next 2 years. Do the math. Pretty darned good raise, if true. It's one thing I really like about American sports, salaries are all know as are potential bonuses. CapGeek or NHL numbers will tell you the salaries of players in the NHL and in the lower leagues that are the property of a parent team. The public are informed. Teams no longer have the ability to abuse players. It's all known. When Steve Yzerman got "X dollars", Joe Sakic knew what he was worth and vice versa. There is a lot to be said about transparency. If we saw the salaries that the players were on and our club's revenues were grossly outstripped by salaries, we'd have every right to be calling out the owners for doing such deals. It all becomes a shell game otherwise. COYS
peterballb
Peter agree wholeheartedly about using Defoe as an impact sub and playing Demps behind Ade. I would go with Parker and Dembele in the middle, Bale and Lennon on the wings. At the back BAE and Walker full-backs, with Verts and Daws at CB until Kaboul gets back. Caulker needs to be eased in, use league cup games for that.
El Jefe
berba was world class he played well with robbie keane so was he world class, and berba with man utd he was world class flop, so ur post was flawed
123spurs
If Real Madrid wanted Moutinho they would have got him - the fact we didn't only shows that we didn't start the negiociation process soon enough. Anyway done now so we just need to hope that Dembele can really step up.
MrSpurs
Robbie Keane was $hit ,as was Shay Given ha ha ha ha ha ha ******** useless
big cockeral
El Jefe, so I suppose he's now worth 5M more.

As to the article, players are rarely worth it, in the end. Very few have the cache to actually be able to carry their costs. Ronaldo and Messi are guys who influence every game they are in and sell shirts worldwide. Haven't seen an Aguero shirt in the streets of Toronto. Lots of Messi, Beckham and Ronaldo. These shirts are bought for the player as much, if not more, than for the team. How many non-Spurs fans are running around with Bale shirts? Balotelli is more likely to sell than Aguero, IMO, when it comes to a worldwide market. That's today. Tomorrow it'll be someone else. Still unlikely to be Bale or even Modric (outside of the Croatian community). It's just reality. Team sport. I think way too much emphasis is put on the individual players and not enough on the team. Inter were ok, not great. Mourinho came in and they were great and won the treble. Mourinho left and they were crap. All in three years. Players were the same. Ethos of the team wasn't. It's all about the team. Stars make it easier. Messi on WBA doesn't get them the title. COYS
peterballb
MrSpurs, while I like the idea of what you said, the same would have happened if RM had been in for Moutinho. They weren't going to pay Porto what they were asking any more than they were going to give us what we wanted for Modric. Porto wanted 32M. We wanted 40M for Modric. The only teams that can do that are teams like Chelsea, City and PSG etc that don't give a sod about the balance book. RM went all in for Ronaldo because he is all that and his name carries a lot with it. They didn't lose on him, but I'll bet they expected to win more because of him. Reality is players will come to us at a price and wage we are willing to pay only when the option of CL and higher wages is off the table. Mind made up or otherwise, the two minds only meet when the expectations and realizations are common. Early in windows, it's pretty tough when it comes to the quality of player we are looking at . COYS
peterballb
Funnily enough this summer a distant cousin of mine in Spain asked me for a Spurs shirt with Bale on it. Only reason likes Spurs is because of Bale and thats why wanted the shirt. Him being linked to Barca, Madrid, etc has raised his profile quite a bit I think and will mean more people following Spurs just to see how he continues to do. So have to agree Peter, perfect example of people wearing the shirt because of a player and not the club!
El Jefe
Then again as a youngster I was attracted to Spurs via Gazza and the FA Cup win in 1991 and stayed true ever since!
El Jefe
peter - Yes it's about the team but the 11 players that make that team have to be of an average standard to win things. Putting Messi in WBA wouldn't win the PL but they might finish a couple places higher. You wouldn't win the PL with 11 of Livermore standard but you would with 11 of Modric standard. Yes it's about the "team" but the team still has to have 11 players of sufficient quality.
Hot_Spur
HotSpur, no argument there. We need a team of above average players being managed by a coach of even higher quality who also has subs to go to who are also above average. That plus a little luck and you can win. What you will never do is win without a team ethos regardless of the individuals. The talent level of the PL no longer permits that scenario. COYS
peterballb
Players can be worth it as they are commodities .
Say you buy a player for £15 million for 5 years ? that`s £3million a season .If he performs well every season then that £3 million will be more than paid for every year ,sponsorship & merchandise alone .
If after 3 years you sell him for £25 million you haven`t gained £10 million profit .You`ve gained all the profit from before plus the £10 million you`re quids in .But in some cases you sell a player for £10 million ,but lose £20 million in lost revenue & that`s why Levy does so well .It`s not all about sell for this & buy for that .If you buy a player for £20 million that money gets borrowed from the bank with interest ,so that £20 million player will then cost you £23 million .Ever had a mortgage ? same principle ,players are mortgages .

levy is good for this club because X & Y always add up whatever the equation .Not perfect but look at Rangers ?
But i also know the bank balance is in AVB`S favour so Levy can get spending in January & next summer .
big cockeral
El Jefe, that's fair enough but is not the norm. I followed Olympique de Marseille when I was in Nice as much because they were exciting and well available as because of one Chris Waddle. Never bought a shirt though any more than a Staltieri one for his German club because I am Spurs. I'm sure your cousin got the Bale shirt as much for Bale as the possibility of him going to Spain. I hope Levy exploits Friedel and Dempsey as much as he can to garner more of an American audience and to further push UA to flaunt our stuff over on this side of the pond. COYS
peterballb
Big C, but if you bought that player for 15M, paid him 100k/week the real cost is 40M. Yes sponsorship, trophies, table position etc all add on but that's split between all players and the brand. So it is probable that we either broke even, made a small loss or profit on Modric, all things considered. I do agree wholehearty that Levy and ENIC do a great job of keeping transfers and salaries at about revenue levels. That is not a small feat. COYS
peterballb
If Levy had put in place a proper plan when he first arrived at Tottenham then we might be in a better position both on and off the pitch.
MrSpurs
But it`s those special players that make the difference .
Missing out on 3rd cost Spurs around £50 million .Chelsea winning the champions league gained them a minimum £70 million . Winning the championship play off can gain you £50 million easily ..........

All of a sudden bidding 22 million for a player isn`t so bad when CL football is at stake .Even your league position gets you more money the higher you finish .Harry & his arrogance cost Spurs alot of treacle last season ,why do you think Arsenal are so happy with Wenger winning phuck all ,he brings in millions with league position /.
big cockeral
Big C, I don't think those numbers are correct. I looked at all of the revenues from TV to table position and it did not even equal what Southampton have spent. That's assuming no costs and no salaries. Yes, 50 some odd million if you win the PL but certainly not for 17th. If Southampton go down, they are done like dinner. ManU, 2 years ago made 60 some odd milion from finishing runners up in the CL. More than Barca because of points in the group stages and TV coverage. Chelsea has nowhere near the TV ratings that ManU does so I doubt the 70M stat. When bonuses etc are all paid out I'd be shocked if it was not all at a loss. They needed to won CL and PL to break even was what I read. COYS
peterballb
vertonghen free kick was quite a strike, nice left foot he has on him :)
Guernman
peterballb you get £50 million for winning the championship play off final ,not the championship itself .Alot of that is sky money
big cockeral
Vertonghen used to take free kick for Ajax when they were within striking range
Hot_Spur
Every EPL club gets around £30 million a season just from SKY .So even armchair fans are contributing to their club ,just by sitting their watching it ,think adverts come cheap ? sponsors ?
big cockeral
I see Lloris has come out and said he expected to have to fight for his place as brad has been playing well
Hot_Spur
yea but deep down Lloris knows the fight will be about as challenging as taking candy from a baby.
Guyver
Vertonghen is another option for mid field if needed, he plays there for Belgium
Hot_Spur
Friedel only got man of the match because he was so busy .Which is shameful against Norwich at home .
Being a good keeper is organising your defence & not letting it get into chaos ,command your box .Gallas can ***** off aswell ,.both too old

Lloris your Tottenham Hotspurs needs you
big cockeral
Big C - If Friedel played in the next match, made 10 world class saves and saved 4 penalties, you would still say he was crap. :-)
Hot_Spur
Guyver - Not sure it'll be quite that easy if Brad keeps up as he has been but Lloris knows he will be No 1 at some point so I don't suppose he's too bothered.
Hot_Spur
you must be deluded if u thought RK was crap while he was playing with berba. yet again u get personal just like with good ol harry getting where this club want to be.u are a broken record on here. you try an wind me up by the shay given crap, but u fail terrible just like england team
123spurs
wow big c never new that if u borrow from a bank u have to pay interest thanks for heads up, do u work i bank, i bought a car and borrowed so does that mean my car is a mortgage, thaanks mr obvious. well done peter, big c never mentioned how much the player was earning, big diff id he was on 100k or 35 k,
123spurs
123spurs phuck off pikey .
big cockeral
Hot_Spur I just don`t rate him that`s all .I also think he`s all over the place ,the defence needs sorting .
big cockeral
Morning all. Thanks CLEVLAND great article as usual and OX? Totally agree there's a tipping point and it just becomes abuse without a damned piece of thought behind it. BIG C? Glad to see your still taking your happy pills.
underyid
Yea thats what I meant Hot_Spur, when your no1 rival is 41 years old, its just a matter of time.
Guyver
u mad bro lol
123spurs
they are english pikey's in england aswell just to let you know
123spurs
I aint your bro ,& FFS three & tree are 2 different words
big cockeral
at least i dont have to listen to that coops kid any more abusing me
123spurs
Lets hope Lloris is not the next big thing in goal to go flat a la Gomes! Then again Gomes was not proven at international level like Lloris so I guess there is much less risk.
El Jefe
to and two are 2 different words
123spurs
i think Lloris will struggle in goal for us.
123spurs
I've just been watching some videos of Dembele, he looks worth every penny of 15 million. He's strong, rides tackles, never goes down if he can help it, makes beating 2 or 3 opponents look easy, got the ball glued to his foot, and some of the passes he picks out are a dream and he's so quick. He's going to terrorize the opposition. Not a prolific scorer but he doesn't need to be, if Ade and Dempsey get into the right spaces Dembele will give them the sevice. I can see the Belgium national team being a world force in a few years, they have a strong squad of young players.
Hot_Spur
For now...AVB just needs to jigsaw the puzzle...see what works and can become brilliant....hopefully he can use Coulibaly, Pritchard, Ceballos, Falque, Tom Carroll, and Lancaster....these boys have real potential.
dcruzer
Dembele reminds me of (vintage)Gerrard or Toure. If his explosive style can have anything like the impact those 2 players can provide i'll be more than happy.
Guyver
dcruzer - Potential maybe but potential doesn't win titles. It's a tough, ruthless league and you have to be ruthless to survive in it. It's a fact that very small percentage of youngsters that have "potential" actually make the top grade. They may become championship players but most do not make premier players.
Hot_Spur
That was one of the things I always admired about George Best, when tackled he always did his utmost to stay on his feet and chase the ball, Dembele is the same. So refreshing to see in this day and age where most players fall over if you blow on them.
Hot_Spur
Guyver - I think Dembele is a much more skill full dribbler than Gerard though, he is awesome.
Hot_Spur
and his passing and shootings not as good, but his engine and dynamic style is similar.
Guyver
I think is not who you can bring in, another BIGGER concern is when you cannot hold on to players you develop. That is what hurts! Your times we were one players could look to, now, we are mediocre with mediocre mentality fans who are happy to sell Modric and follow Spurs as a corporation not a football team. COYS
kosovo_spurs
Agreed Hot - watched some video's of Dembele and looks pure class. Hopefully playing with a better calibre of player at Spurs will also help improve his game, especially his end product - which is what Jol always said at Fulham that he had to improve to become one of the best around! Also agree that Belgium has a very tasty team/squad and it is their golden generation from the looks of things - will be interesting to see what they can do with all those good players at their disposal. Also watched all of Demps goal's from last season and liked what I saw, all types of goals inside the box and out, using both feet and his head, scoring a couple of direct free-kicks and also scoring from corners! Very, very impressive so one can only imagine what he could be capable of with us given the one would assume better service from the likes of Bale, Lennon, Ade, Dembele, etc. Starting to get a much more positive vibe than I had a few days ago! Also reading that we might go back in for Moutinho and Damiao in January is also very pleasing - apparently Damiao had an offer he liked but Inter rejected it for the moment! Hopefully we can negotiate hard with Porto over the coming weeks/months and get Mouts for cheaper than what we would have had to last week!
El Jefe
BTW no need to look any further than Newcasrtle who have put together a very good and competitive team without a single star player. All players costing under £10m a piece!
El Jefe
I agree El Jefe ,in the next transfer window or now i would sign some scouts who actually know there job pay them good money and they will pay you millions back !! .
Edinburgh Spur
I feel that some on here are setting themselves up for massive disappointment by bigging up our summer signings to a level that they will struggle to reach. We made only one really good signing this summer, Vertonghen, all the others, bar Siggy, were panic buys that may or may not deliver the goods.
Llorris wasn't at all impressive during the Euros but we were desperate for a keeper and beggars can't be choosers. Shame that Tony Parks and Harry ruined Gomes as he was credited as the reason that PSV won the title when he was with them.
Dembele, nobody else was after him, looked a bit greedy on the ball and lazy off it from what I saw of him at Fulham last season. The skill is there but whether AVB can turn him into a team player remains to be seen.
Dempsey, hard working and you can't question his effort but all that work will catch up with him very soon, in the same way it has with Parker. A short term, shortsighted panic buy in my opinion. Not going to score too many this season given our lack of creativity in midfield.
AVB will have worked nothing short of a miracle if we finish above 7th this season because I don't expect any major signings in January unless a last minute bargain interests our director of football Daniel Levy.
thfc1882whl
I prefer to have own grown players that are Spurs through and through but sadly how many English players make the top flight and compete at the highest level.

IMO this is where the money should be injected in bringing in a whole new way of training and developing own grown players. Bring in the best coaches, scouts, fitness coaches. Go to other countries and see what they do and work on that so we can have a high percentage of own grown players making it through.

We are not going to compete with other clubs now as transfers fees are stupid and wages even more stupid. Players and agents ahve the power and clubs that are owned by rich tycoon*s have the power over the rest of us.

Players see it more as what they can earn and win than playing for there beloved team and in some cases some players don't even have the passion of playig for a beleoved team it is just a job BAE.

Even when players do start of wanting to wear a particular shirt it isn't long before their heads are turned and they are chasing the big money and silverware. Many of us says on this site we would play for free for our beloved Spurs or at least for a decent wage but that is because we are fans and not in the world of the football riches. I'm sure we would be tempted if we were in that world.

I don't think any of these players are worth the money clubs pay for them and pay them to play but I guess if we are to compete for silverware it costs and we get drawn into the mayhem of the world of football. However, I do think the gap between clubs have lessoned at the top and every game in the PL is difficult so maybe there isn't such a need for a team full of stars, over expensive players maybe it is about balance. However, unless things change in England and we start to compete at ground root level and start producing our own talented players at our own clubs we will continue to do as we did last night, watching England play is like watching paint dry. We have not progressed as a national team and this is reflected in the PL which is full of foreign players that are coming here for big money transfers and big wages.

England last night were woeful against such a poor team. There was no flare no outstanding talent and the punters do their best to make it upbeat. Those players are average compared to many other international teams.

Our so called big players Gerrard hopeless, Lampard woeful, Rooney hasn't proved his worth on the internal stage yet. It's all so flat to watch.
thfan
Harry is not the Bournmouth manager he is advising.

I am really hoping AVB can get some sort of flowing football back at the lane and some points on the board.
thfan
For those who keep thinking about Newcastle signings, the current Newcastle scout is the former Tottenham scout kicked out during the last regime.
what_sux
what_sux but did you really need a scout to sign the players Newcastle have? After all a lot of them were full international's already atleast the one's playing in the 1st team regularly are. I guess that all being foreigner's there was a need to know they would adapt to the Prem so I guess that is where good scouting comes in, but they were hardly unknown youngsters or un-tried on the international stage.
El Jefe
El Jefe - In the case of Dembele, I suppose it depends on the kind of "end product" one expects. If he is playing a deep mid field role i wouldn't expect him to score a hat full of goals, but if he is providing the more forward players with the passes and opportunities then I would call that a good end product. Can't really expect a player to consistently run from deep, beating half the opposing team on his way to their penalty area and score. trouble is that too many people connect the word "midfielder" with "goals". Midfielders have different roles and that doesn't seem to be widely understood judging by the number of people that criticise Modric for not scoring a lot of goals.
Hot_Spur
When you look at the population of England why can we not find up and coming talent? as I said even if we find potential talent are we capable of bringing them through to the highest level like other countries?
thfan
thfan - It is a fact that only a very small percentage of youngsters with "potential" actually make it to the highest level, English clubs do not have anywhere near the setup that the likes of Barcelona and Ajax have. Of the young players that spurs have with so called "potential", we will be very lucky if just one of them turns out to be a top PL player. Most will probably make it to Championship level or perhaps even bottom half of table PL players but not the higher Pl players that we want. When the new facilities are fully up and running and a larger quantity of "potential" can be brought in we will have a greter chance of finding one or two "gems". The vast majority will eventually be sold to other clubs at a profit because they are not "title winning" quality. In that way the facilities benefit the club but don't expect to make a title winning team from "home grown" players, that will never happen. Even Barcelona cannot do that, they still have to buy some of their players.
Hot_Spur
thfan - This situation is not a fault of the coaching, it's just a matter of "talent". You cannot make a top player from somebody who doesn't have a certain level of natural ability, unfortunately not many have sufficient level of natural ability.
Hot_Spur
day all...feeling good today...jamaica 50 celebration.....blazed the olympics.beat nz at cricket and now for the 1st time beat usa in wc qualifier..mostly drew with them...dempsey scored their only goal by the way
rovinella62spurs
Hot Spur Not certain why that is; but why do people criticise Modric for not scoring a lot of goals, his link up play is what brings out the best in him, his assist to assist; Certain Dembele will bring his own game to the table, his 45mins got him 50% of his goals in all games for Fulham last season for us vs Norwich; Dempsey is the goalscorer 23 from 46 games; so we have three players who will score goals Ade; Defoe; Dempsey; it's which one is AVB going to start with, if his playing his 4-2-3-1 system, which always turns into 4-5-1, because we do not play narrow, with Lennon and Bale, this is what has upset the apple cart in games at home drawing both, we don't get enough players in the box, Ade can move to any part of the pitch to link up play, Defoe is not able to do that, I can't speak for Dempsey i have not seen enough of him, but he will score when he get's his chance. We just have to get the system working and things will come good.
spu 4 life
Watched Portaloo Juniors vs Istabogaroll from Columbia last night, dirty messy game and it was a bit shi7, to say the least, but they are not the best sides going.
spu 4 life
spu 4 life - Exactly, a lot of people just don't understand the role Modric played for spurs, they think "midfielder" should mean lots of goals. SOME midfielders do score a reasonable number of goals but they are more forward playing attacking midfielders. Modric was not an attacking midfielder, he was a playmaker, a distibutor, a general who dictated the pace and direction of the game. Pirlo plays a similar role for italy, he was immense in the Euros but he scores very few goals and most of the ones he does score are from free kicks and penalties.
Hot_Spur
Hot as long as long as helps create for the likes of Bale, Ade and Demps and gets the odd goal himself aswell, will prove to be money very well spent. His excellent dribbling skills wil take opposition players completely out of the game opening up space not just for himself but for others aswell! Cannot wait to see him in full flow for us especially once we get our starting midfield and attack on the pitch and they are fully trained up and fit.
El Jefe
Just watching an old clip of the Spurs crossbar challenge and JJ of all people nails it bang on! Zokora also showing some nice flicks in the lead up to his kick. Dear oh dear oh dear, shame they could never produce any similar skill during matches!
El Jefe
It is a fact unfortunately that Spurs have a poor record for finding top young players in London, never mind the rest of the country. If you look at the number, and quality, of players we have brought through in the last 15-20 years and compare with Arsenal, West Ham, and to a lesser degree Chelsea, we are definately the poor relations. Not only does it save money in bringing through your own players, it makes money, sometimes big money, if and when they move on. There must be a reason why we miss out, and end up filling the championship and league 1 with our rejects.
Frank
El Jefe - When Jenas first arrived he did have some good performances, if I remember correctly he was with Notts Forest as a youngster and showed real promise. The went to Newcastle and continued to play well but didn't like it there. Moved to spurs and played ok until Harry arrived and then went downhill. I suspect Harry gave him his famous "confidence boosting" treatment like he did with a few others. Shame really, I think he is really better than he performs, it's just a confidence thing.
Hot_Spur
I think we need to take a step back and look at what has happened inbetween our successful run and now. I think it's safe to say the January transfer window was the one we needed to address key issues.

We had only Adebayor providing the goals and as he was on loan he was only ever a temporary fix due to his wage demands. Luck would have it we signed him in the summer but we also complimented that with Dempsey, who has impressed over the last few seasons. That's good right? Maybe not the Hulk and Falcao we were all after, but it helps towards the cause.

Next we was calling for backup for Lennon or an improvement on Lennon. It didn't come then and still hasn't come now. Dempsey has been known to play on the right side of the final third at times but he certainly isn't replacement for a RM. This was a position i hoped would be filled by Remy (although not worth 20mil in my books) or possibly Dzagoev. Hopefully January?

Then ofcourse we complained about a CB and a GK which we addressed with very good players in Vertonghen and Lloris.

The depth in the squad is an ongoing problem and isn't one we can fix in the short term, but what has crippled us is the Modric sale. I know Moutinho is no Modric but i can't help but think if we signed him or another playmaker before the deadline, we wouldnt have had such problems as we have shown up to now. We addressed the issues we had in January, but it's clear Modric has left a massive gap, that Jenas, Huddlestone, Livermore, Sandro and Parker just cannot fill.

I've been known for writing off the youngsters at Spurs, assuming they'll turn out to be nothing more than our next Dawson or Huddlestone but maybe Carol does deserve a chance. I'm looking forward to the Reading game however. They will show alot more grit and determination to win a point or three which will definitely be a test of the lads mental capacity.
RyanHotSpur
Hot by the time Harry arrived he had already put in a multitude of *****e performances. Never really hit the ground running IMO and just went from bad to worse. Scored a few goals in first couple of season's but that was it. Anyway gladly we have now moved on and have a better calibre of midfielder at the club.
El Jefe
Talking of Academy players, Judas should have got us £20m and Leds would have got even more had he not had his well known knee problems as had he been fully fit through-out his career doubt he would not have left us for a top 4 club. Just those two sales would have paid for a new Academy in itself. Hopefully Caulker can be the next in line on a defensive front and lets see what comes of young Carroll and Coulibaly!
El Jefe
Would be good if they do but don't hold your breath.
Hot_Spur
Need to be given a proper chance though. Judas and King were lucky as they came through at times when we were very poor and thus they got the chance to cement themselves in the team more easily, mistakes were not as punishable as they are now as expectations are much higher these days than they were. Guess its like playing the lottery, just got to keep trying. The bread and butter though has to be a top scouting system in place to pick off the top talent as it comes to fruition. AVB having worked at Porto should know very well what a top scouting system is all about as Porto are excellent at discovering top young players above all in South America. James Rodrigues is the next in line and then there is another already in the wings called Iturbe!
El Jefe
Really depends on the player. You look at Chelsea spending 50 mil on Torres and you would say money spent on star power does not equate to success on the pitch. However, you can also look at Ronaldo (latest indiscretions aside) and say that the 80 mil that Real spent on him has been worth every penny. It all depends on the player and their strength of character.
WhiteHartHotspur
El Jefe ..... Sorry mate but I'm going to find it extremely difficult to take anything you have to say serously in future after your completely unsubstantiated and ridiculous comments regarding Ledley King. There was nothing lucky with either Ledley or Campbells progression into the first team. The only factors that differed were that one was a downright liar and the other was Ledley. Ledley is exacty the dort of player that Spurs should be looking to produce. Forget your 'scouting network', we now have a training facility that is purported to be the envy of europe so why shouldn't we be producing playerss that can make the 1st team and challenge for the trophies that we deserve. Scouting networks, whilst needed, only ever allow us to give a bigger stage for players looking for that one big deal. If you had anyunderstanding of theway we do business then you would realise that 9 times out of 10 we only buy with a view to the sell on value and not what is good for the long term progression of THFC
thfc1882whl
thfc - Calm down mate I think you are over reacting to El Jefe's post. My understanding of what he meant is that it just so happened that King and Campbell just happened to be at the right stage of their career at a time when it was easier to get into the first team than it is now. He was NOT suggesting that they wouldn't have made it anyway, or that they didn't deserve to make the first team, just that they possible got there a little sooner than they might have done at a different time due to the rather low strength of the team at that moment. That is not being disparaging to the players concerned, just stating a fact of circumstances. As for scouting networks, you can't just "forget scouting networks", they are necessary. It is a fact that only a very small percentage of youngsters with "potential" actually make it to the highest level, English clubs do not have anywhere near the setup that the likes of Barcelona and Ajax have. Of the young players that spurs have with so called "potential", we will be very lucky if just one of them turns out to be a top PL player. Most will probably make it to Championship level or perhaps even bottom half of table PL players but not the higher PL players that we want. When the new facilities are fully up and running and a larger quantity of "potential" can be brought in we will have a greter chance of finding one or two "gems". The vast majority will eventually be sold to other clubs at a profit because they are not "title winning" quality. In that way the facilities benefit the club but don't expect to make a title winning team from "home grown" players, that will never happen. Even Barcelona cannot do that, they still have to buy some of their players.
Hot_Spur
Hot - got it in one! THFC if you read all my posts you would see I rated Campbell at £20m at the time he left (which even by todays standards is a lot of money especially for a CB let alone back then) and I rated King (barring knee problems) even higher, so I think that shows how highly I rated the pair and I also said I hoped Caulker would be the next big thing after those two from the CB production line! BUT it was easier for Campbell and King to get into the team and stay there because we were proper ***** back then! Campbell started off as a striker scoring in his first game against Chelski if I remember correctly. Then moved to midfield then finally to CB! Now we are worried about throwing Caulker in at the deep end because it could affect him badly and us aswell in terms of getting top 4, back then it was not like that. As for scouting again Hot hit the nail on the head, we'll be lucky to produce 1-2 top players every so often - the rest of the team/squad has to be bought hence the importance of a top scouting system especially as we cannot go out and uy the finished article for top money and top wages. Porto stay at the top in Portugal for example even being a selling club (like us) and they are not reknowned for their Academy, its simply down to having a great scouting network. Sporting on the other hand have a great Academy and produce the likes of Sousa, Figo, Quaresma, Ronaldo, Moutinho to name but a few and yet win nothing in Portugal! Also just because we have a brand new state of the art training facility does not mean the crem de la crem of youngsters will want to come to us immediately!
El Jefe
Also unfortunate as it might be, the simple fact of the matter is that we are viewed as a stepping stone club at the moment whether we like it or not! We might aswell embrace it and take advantage of the fact rather than feel sorry for ourselves about it! We get good players who help us progress (2 top 4 finishes) whilst they also progress and then we make a tidy profit on them when they want to leave (note not us forcing them out for the profit but we'll take it)! The next step is to build a team/squad of such to the point where they no longer want to leave and we can fulfil their ambition's and ultimately our's but that is going to take time. Even City with unlimited resources and full use of them took a few years to get to where they are now!
El Jefe
BTW - Academy wise - we may have a brand new state of the art training facility but our reputation of producing young kids is pretty poor at the moment. Arse, Spam etc are year's ahead and as a parent you want your kid at the best school possible and rep counts for a hell of a lot. Arse for example have a rep of not only producing but also of giving a chance to young player's in the first team - fast tracking them in! We are competing in the same cachement area so not going to be easy at all!
El Jefe
Appologies El Jefe, a little (ok a lot) hasty of me, should have read all your other posts before jumping to conclusions.
Regarding your academy post, I've got a mate whose two sons were at the Spurs academy and both left for Charlton because the set up there is better than ours.
Once again mate, sorry for the harsh post. Note to self, try not to post when getting in from the pub and only reading half the story!
thfc1882whl
Are the Stars Worth it? - How true, i don't know, but Ronaldo says he wants half a million a week, 26m a year in a new contract, that's why he is so unhappy, yeah i would be as well!!!!
spu 4 life
What all these players forget... it is us the fans who are making big payments to their wages.. game tickets, merchandising, TV subscriptions, and then the clubs transfer profits, etc.. IMO...It has got to the point where it has to stop.. and we will see a drop in transfer fees and costs, hence wages for these guys... It was all very good before the worldwide recession, now the average fan / supporter just can't afford it.. Ronaldo should take a month to work in a factory or retail shops, public service job etc.. see how the real people live..
Block D Spurs
No worries thfc, hope it was a good night!
El Jefe
Academy wise, thats a shame about your mate's kids but like I said above other clubs have a better rep and thus get the pick of the up and coming youngster's. Like everything else associated with the club it will take time, we need to build a rep based around the new facility. Hopefully if it can produce 1-2 top players every so often it will pay for itself. Also by coming through the Academy a player should hopefully feel more loyalty to the club (perhaps even be a fan) and want to stay as opposed to wanting the big move elsewhere if makes it.
El Jefe
thfc1882whl
Don`t forget Sol Campbell was a centre forward who was put into central defence out of desperation ,the rest was history .King was always going to make it due to his bad ass performances for the England under 21`s ,his talent was so easy to spot in from an early age he looked class .

But it also true the better the team the harder it is for youngsters to break through .Even Man Utd ,Chelsea & Arsenal too have stopped bringing them through the ranks ,in the 90`s they were falling off a conveyor belt .
big cockeral
I noticed that Lloris's agent already is speaking of Tottenham as a team to leave after a bit to go to a bigger team. Is this the way to start at his new club?
Total knobhead
TK - it's in agent's interests to do transfers. End of day it's Lloris own decision not the agent. Ignore it mate, verbal diarrhea
Hot_Spur
I see Jenas is being linked with Leeds - whilst its good that he is being linked away I doubt they'll be picking up his wages or paying any sort of loan fee. So effectively we'll be getting nothing for him whilst he's away! Hopefully he'll do something ood if does go on loan meaning we can get something for him in January as opposed to letting him go on a free next summer! Think the most likely prospect is that we'll have to release on a free come the end of the season!
El Jefe
TK - like I said above at the moment we're seen as a stepping stone club, so not really surprising these comments. Atleast you might argue they are upfront about it and not setting any illusion's about his stay with us! Hopefully though we keep improving to the point where we can keep hold of our best players and build a quality team/squad. I think Llois could prove a very shrewd buy as that of Verts and Dembele but hopefully when the big boys come calling if they do make it we can turn them away AND actually continue to add instead of dismantling!
El Jefe
Keep trying to get onto the site and faced with adverts blocking the screen...now this site is off limits don't want the junk on my computer Cheers all
Forever Spurs
If i were AVB i would stop messing about. The pressure is mounting and i believe in him and i know it takes time, but others are not so patient. I don't think Friedel is worth his place. I think Hugo should start. Play our best players. Hugo, BAE, Walker, Vertonghen, Gallas, Sandro, Dembele, Bale, Adebayor and Lennon. I would even think about dropping Gallas.
asherthesmasher
oops Dempsey should be in there behind Ade.
asherthesmasher
Agree we are a stepping stone club... because the reality is....until we get the new stadium, and regular CL, title wins, and cup silverware, income to support the wages, and transfers (see my post above) .. so we just have to accept it.. as much as it is hard to take...
Block D Spurs
ash - agree with your team except would swap Sandro for Parker and make him captain. Parker has to be in the team.
El Jefe
Very hard to take Block, because even though we make very good profit on these players, it is a massive shame to see them leave because firstly they are of a winning pedigree and secondly so entertaining to watch because apart from the obvious of winning we also want to be entertained at the same time after all thats what fooball should be all about!
El Jefe
Funny thing is we have only really lost Carrick, Berbatov and Modric in the last 10 years or so (VDV was not really lost, as we decided to sell him even though probably wanted to go), 3 players. Them down the road have lost a hell of a lot more in the same time frame and still always ahead of us, even last season when we should have been home and dry! I think we have potentially made atleast 3 top/major signings this summer in Lloris, Verts and Dembele. These are players who I can see us having problems to hold onto in a couple of years given their quality when the bigger boys potentially come calling. The good thing is that they are 3 and if we stregthen further in the next couple of windows with top quality (a la Moutinho and Damiao) we could potentially have an excellent team well capable of challenging for top 4 regularly at a minimum! Suddenly such players will look aroud the dressing room and see quality all around them and this is something that would go a long way to keeping them from the overtures of the bigger boys around!
El Jefe
Total Knobhead I am worried about our new GK signing because there doesn't seem to be any positivity coming from him or his camp.

I am also a little worried at the fact that Gallas is being played before Dawson when it has been quite obvious that Gallas and Vert are not suited. Im also worried that Dawson was shown the door when it is quite obvious that Gallas is not reliable, Caulker is still unproven for us and Vert has not settled that well. I am also worried that there doesn't seem to be any flow or style to our play and that Bale has been very poor and still not doing what we fell in love with him which was taking that LW and terrorising defenders and scoring goals. I'm also worried that Ade hasn't shown us anything yet and still doesn't seem to have an fire in his belly and that we are relying on Defoe as a lone striker. I'm worried that Modric hasn't been replaced and we still don't seem to have that creativity.

I was so optimistic and still try to stay optimistic and am prepared to give AVB time but if we don't improve within the next two games then I will be become very worried.

As it stands be it only three games in I see us struggling like Liverpool and Brendon Rodgers has been given an impossible task there and we are not as good as Arsenal even though they have lost RVP and we are miles behind Chelsea, City and Utd and we are not as good as one or two other teams at the moment so top four as it stands in not in our reach.

Lets hope this worry is just an delusion in my mind and I will be proved wrong and AVB will turn things round and we will start to play some attractive football and start to pick up points.

One thing we don't want to happen is for teams to not be bothered about playing us because that in itself loses us points. Often teams like Utd gain points purely because they are feared just like we were seen last season at times. We need teams to know we are good and not whimps.
thfan
When Carrick looked around who did he see? Berbs the same? Apart from ever loyal Ledley,what other top notch player that would fill them with the excitement of knowing they were going to be playing with them on Saturday afternoon? Last season there was King, Modders, Bale and VDV and perhaps Ade. Now there is Lloris, Verts, Dembele, Bale, Ade and perhaps Demps. If we can add to this base in the next couple of windows with similar quality we could well be on the ayto something very exciting ourselves.
El Jefe
thfan - I agree that 4th is beyond our reach at the moment. I can see us getting 5th and hopefully some decent cup runs. The important thing is to establish an exciting base from which we can build on in the next couple of windows. It is a season of transition but hopefully can be a positive one and we can keep improving not only on the pitch but also in the signing's we make off it. Hopefully this time next year we will be strong enough to mount a serious challenge for top 4 again!
El Jefe
thfan - There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Bale. I've said it on here before, he gets P****d off with putting crosses into the penalty area and nobody anywhere near to get on the end of them. We need Pav back, he was good at that. It stood out in the WBA game, first 20 minutes Bale put 2 super crosses along the front of the 6 yard box and Defoe was 10 yards away, so they went begging. After that Bale got disheartened and started wandering infield looking for the ball. Hopefully with Ade and Dempsey on the pitch Bale can get back to what he does best and his crosses won't go begging. El Jefe - I think 5th is a bit optimistic mate. As it stands, lucky to get 6th I think but that may change IF Levy gets his finger out in january.
Hot_Spur
Hot - as I see it the main competition for 5th is Newcastle and Liverpool. Newcastle's defence and Liverpool's attack are nothing to write home about so thats why I think we can get 5th! If Levy gets his finger out in the next 2 windows then next season I reckon we will challenge top 4. Hopefully Bale sticks around though and is not the next big one out of the door.
El Jefe
Southampton could be a threat :-)
Hot_Spur
Should be challenging next season regardless. That's 3 transfer windows to fix any problems with a squad that finished fourth.
RyanHotSpur
Trouble is the problems weren't fixed
Hot_Spur
 

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