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Defoe and Ade looked great!

Okay, so many people got what they wanted and that was to see Spurs revert to a 4-4-2 and to play with both Jermain Defoe and Emmanuel Adebayor together. Firstly may I remind you how many fans complained about our playing an old fashioned and limiting 4-4-2 last season. Just wondered what has changed since? Last night it seemed to work out well. both strikers worked well individually and with the team as a whole, even if it wasn't totally obvious that they had a prefect duo understanding. what was clear last night was that having two strikers was double trouble for the opposition, but that opposition was hardly top draw in terms of quality, was it, so should we get too carried away?

Perhaps as a team our problem isn't really about whether to play two strikers, but whether we can play them with two out and out wingers as well? To their credit, all of Bale, Lennon, Ade and Defoe put in a good shirt when not in possession and are happy to drop deep and do their defensive duties, but even if we were to have our perceived best two central midfield players available, would we be confident of playing and beating the likes of City, United and Chelsea on a regular basis?

A team of Loris, Walker, Kaboul/Caulker, Vertonghen, BAE; Lennon, Sandro/Parker, Dembele, Bale; Defoe and Adebayor, probably wouldn't be a million miles from what many of us would pick as our best XI and that looks remarkably like a 4-4-2, but though looking great on paper, is it really solid enough against either the very best or against teams that will look to park the bus and frustrate?

To a degree, I don't really like to get too carried away with this or that formation, but prefer to look at a teams fluidity, flexibility, fitness and function. By that I am looking at how easily a team can adapt and counter an opponents strengths and exploit its weakness. Sure on occasions you will have to look at who fits in better and maybe drop a striker to bolster the midfield, but could that be equally effective by losing a wide man and expecting more attacking input from your full backs. For example would dropping Lennon and if fit, adding Parker with Dembele and Sandro make us any less of an offensive threat?

That question was nothing to do with a lack of ability in Aaron Lennon, who for me has had a very good season, but clearly we are either looking to fit 13 players into an 11, are unrealistic or simply need to ultimately bring in or develop players that have even more versatility or at least the qualities to play the way we ideally like. For example, could Lennon be better in front of goal? Could Adebayor or Defoe work the wide areas better? Probably a yes in both cases, but unless we can bring in the likes of Hulk, Remy or whoever, we might always have this argument and never really resolve it.

On the appointment of AVB many of us were either happy to see change and also accepting that we would give him time to make them. What is never clear is whether we would be better to slowly make changes based around what we felt was a wrong and outdated system or to bite the bullet and get the team to work towards a new formation and way of playing from day one and look to bring in players to fit that system. Problem any manager has is that they so rarely get the time to take a slow approach and unless big chance offers instant success, it is usually dismissed by fans who lack the patience or vision to understand what is happening.

In recent years, fans and media have become obsessed with this or that formation and usually whatever a team is playing is wrong. As a nation we have always reverted to a standard 4-4-2 and we hear our players like it, and we all understand it, but can't resist talking up a 4-4-1-1 or whatever, even if the change is change is minimal or we don't ideally have the players to play it well enough. To be honest, I would be very tempted to play both strikers at City and also both wingers, particularly if Sandro is fit again. City look fragile at the back and will also probably play two strikers. Of course of we play that way and get beaten, AVB will have got it wrong and should have been more cautious. I guess the real thing here is that we need to relax and accept that a manager is only right when he is winning and even then he could be doing better...




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The journalist

Writer: OxfordSpur Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Friday November 9 2012

Time: 11:41AM

Your Comments

Lund chaud
JattYid
It may have looked good, but Maribor are a) Not very good, b) Not English, c) Playing in Europa league. Defoe is not likely to score goals like that against Citeh, nor most of EPL
TonyRich
Dempsey is classed as a forward, so at 1st glance we played a 4-4-2 with Defoe & Dempsey when the team won at Old Trafford... but we didnt play a 4-4-2 as Dempsey dropped off and was a 5th midfielder... Ade was similar yesterday albeit with the ability to convert to a full-blown striker when needed within 5 seconds of winning possession and giving us 2 in the box to aim at. Ade also gives us AN OUTBALL WHEN UNDER PRESSURE by teams pushing for equalisers - something we patently lack with just Defoe up top, enabling many teams to score next after Spurs have taken leads, this happens alot... Ade + Defoe 'upfront' with Ade in the free 'Cazorla' role able to roam where needed, either midfield, in the channels or even dare I say it upfront and in the box when Bale or Lennon are attacking wide with pace.... this is most definately not a dated 4-4-2 and if we regress into playing a midfielder like Siggy or even Dempsey regularly behind Defoe, Spurs will now deserve everything they get this season
Viyyash-Ramosh
Tony - Until he does then the next thing Defoe bashers will say is that but he wont do it again and it was a fluke. I dont read other teams forums or anything but i wonder if other teams fans bash their heroes the way some of you do on this site? This is not a dig at you Tony as you have just stated a fact above but whenever i go to games i never hear abuse for Defoe,Lennon etc just on this site COYMFS!!! Caulker in for Daws, Sandro in for Hudd and as your were would be my line up against Man Cheaty they are vunerable lets go for the jugular
JattYid
I agree with TonyRich's tone. We were not good last night, far too sloppy all over and both Adebayor and Defoe (yes, I know he got a hat-trick) should be embarrassed that they only got three between them given the continuous service provided by especially Gareth Bale. Adebayor should be told nicely that he should phukking wake up now. Young Kyle Naughton should be smacked against the head for that back pass and young Hugo should be told to sit down and watch how Brad does it, while he still has a chance. How were we still not ahead at halftime? We should have dispatched this poor team after 20 minutes, not allow them to live with us for almost an hour. I hope someone there realises the opposition this weekend will be much stronger.
Shannon
I'd brink in Gallas and Caulker for Daws and Naughton and Sandro for Carroll. Tell Ade to drop off - as he did last night. Go at city down the flanks utilising Hudd's passing accuracy to free up the pace of Bale & Lennon - maybe even Defoe. We'll no doubt spend a fair bit of time on the back foot, but the threats of our pace should rein in City.
scoops50
Jattyid, only on this site would you wake up to negativity and player bashing, after a good important Euro win, a JD hat-rick and a rousing performance from both team and crowd. I advise to look elsewhere, this place is a nightmare. I really hope i am in Amsterdam in May on a famous night for our club. I bet even on that night there would be the usual culprits on here moaning and whinging about something or other.
StillRickyVilla
Shannon so glad im not your child as seems like he would get belt round me a55 every day! I dont understand your continued service and embarrased of misses comment tho as the game i watched i dont remember other than that Ade scoop round the post volley too many missed chances?
JattYid
I actually thought at first that Shannon's post was being sarcastic. Someone shoot me now!
StillRickyVilla
Ade and Defoe worked really well with Bale and Lennon. You couldn't put Lennon in front of goal - he's shot shy. I liked the interplay and passing and fluidity of the team yesterday and for me it was more about attitude than formation. Naughton and Carroll equited themselves well, but you'd really want Parker and Dembele in the middle with Kaboul and BAE at the back. Not that anyone played badly last night. I'm not a massive fan of Sandro,but only because he never passes forward. He's solid in a defensive role and is adequate as a back up for Parker. Incidently now Lloris has shown he's not perfect perhaps the pundits will let AVB choose his keeper. Lloris is for the future - the very near future - BF can't go on for ever. Overall I think Ade and Defoe up front is scary to any defence and that is what we need to put into the team the same fear factor as facing RVP and Rooney.
SPUDMAN
Jattyid, consider: What would the Newcastle strike pair have done with the balls flying in from Bale seemingly every five seconds? Or Rooney and RvP? Or Balotelli and Aguero? I know those are all exceptional players, but our guys need to buck up. We were up against a poor, poor side and it would have been nice to lay down a marker, not allow them to actually equalise and go in level at halftime. SRV, please don't go, its not negativity, just fact. And as for my child, I think he should have got belted around the ass more. Its probably too late now though, but I'll have a go. LOL.
Shannon
@Viyyash-Ramosh - 'Ade also gives us AN OUTBALL WHEN UNDER PRESSURE by teams pushing for equalisers - something we patently lack with just Defoe up top, enabling many teams to score next after Spurs have taken leads, this happens alot...' That is the most accurate statement i've seen all year. So much truth in that, its not even slating little JD, I think he tries, I think the weight training last year HAS paid off, but that doesn't change the defenders mentality when he has the split second to decide whether he's confident trying to knock it up to him. The image of Deoe waiting and Jan/Kyle/Other Kyle/Billy/Caulker and the defender losing the ball sums up our season, I don't blame any of the players, but equally dont blame the manager either. It'd be nice if some fans realised that blame doesn't always have to be place, we're doing bloody well to be where we are this year losing VDV/Modric and getting a whole new manager and set up.
Jimzoaar_The_Yid
At last a Spurs team, looking as though it was a Spurs team. We played a familiar system, we had two wide men going down the lines getting crosses in we wee keepingthe ball, attacking, we een carrie on attacking after the first goal, surprise surprise. AVB look very subdued for much of the ame sitting down rather han cavorting up an down the touchline, I wondered if he ha ha his arse kicked by Levy since the Wigan game, or the crowd reaction ha got to him. I know it is conspiracy theory but was there any significance in Klinnsman sitting cosy with Levy, could there be a DOF appointment in the offing. I was pleased not that it happened, but that the goal gaffe happened to Lloris not Friedel, otherwise the vultures would have really been circling, rather than the relative acceptance on Lloris's behalf. In fairness you woul have kicked the arse o an U14 Gker for that, it just wanted row Z ing, Lloris is a keeper not a MFer and should remember it.
Frank
Bale was unbelievable yesterday Shannon, but i seem to remember one cross across the box which was way to ahead of Defoe, another byline cut back which went way past Adebayor and several other floated/drilled crosses which were no where near Ade/Defoe. Im not bashing Bale for this but countering your argument of Ade/Defoe missing embarrasing chances. Even your Newcastle/Man City/United pairs would have struggled to convert those.
JattYid
Jatt your first post was spot on!!! TR is one of the better posters I feel, but he is a doesn't rate Defoe at all.

As for Defoe and Ade yes they looked good, and yes it was against Maribor, but you can only play against who's in front of you. I hope AVb plays that system alot more of home and away in some games, but obviously not on Sunday.
Ossie
Each of our strikers is a 4-4-2 striker. None have the combination of pace, strength, skill on the ball and cutting edge that a true lone striker needs. Yes, Defoe scored 3. Had had 5 glorious chances when finally he managed a goal. This is the real problem. All the created chances that go for naught. How many of the great Bale, Lennon, Walker etc crosses were met? This is the problem. Chances have been created all year long. We need to start converting these opportunities. Lazio were dominated by us. So were Panathanaikos. Means little if the end game is to throw in a cross for a striker who won't be there. 8 goals in over 1000 minutes. That's ok, but 5 are from 2 appearances. These stats should look eerily familiar. It's every year. We need better if we are going to contend. COYS
peterballb
Jatt, how many more Bale crosses will it take Defoe to figure out what he has to do? The have probably a hundred games together. Sorry. This has never worked. These crosses are wasted opportunities every game. COYS
peterballb
Agreed JattYid on the Bale crosses and the effectiveness of some of them. On another subject, re. our MFer selections. Last night young Carroll was excellent, his passing accuracy whether long, or short, was impressive, he got about the pitch, showed a great engine, sought the ball, had a hand in the goals, very impressive. I personally think he considerably out shone Huddlestone, who apart from one or two passes showed his usual frailties, lack of pace, lack of mobility, a failure to use his considerable physical attributes in tackling or ball winning, and "coasting" most of the game. Carroll looked to me a better bet to partner Sandro, at least until Dembele returns, his increased mobility must be avantageous both in attack, and when tracking back if we lose the ball, and his passing ability, particularly with his left foot, means Huddlestone wouldn't neccessarily be missed. I am afraid Huddlestone has gone backwards.
Frank
4-4-2 gives us another option, AVB has more amo. I don't think we are reverting to it thou, just that AVB made the right call for this game at home. I would also like to see all 3 forwards on the pitch in Ade, Defoe and Dempsey at some point.. Sigurdsson didn't get a game this time, he could work well with them both as well. Our coach needs to continue and have freedom to imply his own ideas as well, but this shows he can approach games in different angles. COYS.
SpursOne2
lol Peter, not sure we was watching the same game, I didnt see the first 5 chances Defoe missed before he scored and I was at the game.......lol, you finding it real hard to give credit where it's due.

U complain about him only scoring 5 in 1000 minutes, where the top scorer of the league has 8 and only 4 other players have scored more
Ossie
peterballb - in the past 2 seasons how often have you seen bale hug the touch line like he did yesterday? hardly ever and when he has in the past i recall goals being scored, walker against bolton, ade vs chelsea, vdv vs stoke. Defoe was hardly in the team last season to be at the end of his crosses and yesterday he feel Defoe played off the shoulder brilliantly and converted 75% of his chances. We all know his stats and his flaws but anyone dissing the boi for what he did yesterday has got some really high standards on how a striker should perform
JattYid
It was not a 4-4-2, just because there were two players recognised as "strikers" does not automatically mean it was 4-4-2. The formation was not really any different to what we have been playing, the difference was Ade playing behind Defoe instead of Dempsey. Ade was outstanding, he was everywhere, making himself available throughout the whole game, doing the link up job we have been missing.
Hot_Spur
Anyone want to discuss the merits of Dawson last night..... He has hardly played all season and slots in and I thought was outstanding especially with his ..... dare I say it...... 50 yd passes. He didn't miss one. All perfectly to the foot or chest of our wide men. I still would have him in for Gallas every day. We had a leader on the pitch for once.
COYS R US
Only on this site would a guy score a hat-rick and get slated! According to the charts he has 1 goal in 2 games, according to just about everyone apart from on here he's on fire and i might be wrong but does last night put him top scorer in the entire country this season!? Must be at least Top 3. No, he is not the absolute best, but to keep hating on JD is ridiculous. As JattYid says, you never hear it at WHL (or anywhere else for that matter).
StillRickyVilla
JattYid - I have never abused any of our players, and I did not intend for it to be so. My point was poorly explained. I meant "Defoe in that system" will not score goals like that. The opposition left him open a lot more than general EPL teams would. I have given Defoe credit where it is due. He did good stuff vs Man U, and Chelsea - when I have previously doubted his ability to perform against big teams. I just personally get annoyed when people refer to Defoe as a "15-20" a season striker, when statistically he isn't (even if you only count seasons where he started 20 league games or more). He has got a blistering shot, but people describe him as a natural finisher - but why does he miss so many penalties? Defoe is Defoe. A guy who only has eyes for goal. A guy who is actually quite loyal. A guy who is very skillful on the ball. Has a rocket foot. Premiership quality, but I do not think top 5 quality because he waits for things to happen, rather than makes them happen. His hatrick was no fluke however, and cup football is right up Defoe's alley.
TonyRich
Lets see whether AVB learns from last night, or whether he will stubornly return to his more dour, defence orientated, computor generated, spread sheet, and clip board inspired formations
Frank
Just looked it up. JD is 3rd highest goalscorer this season in the entire country. Behind Van Persie and Suarez (another striker people on here say is crap?). As i say, only on this site.
StillRickyVilla
I have to agree with peterballb about converting crosses. No dissing of any of the two as they both had great games. But at times I wanted Ade in Defoe's position or vice versa to head them home. Also agree that what we gain by playing both Defoe and Ade, is Ades presence and height and Defoe's speed and killer finnish from his foot. If they both had this then we would stick with one upfront. But we do get more with them both together. I’m afraid I would still pick Ade over Defoe if it was for a formation with only one forward.
SpursOne2
If we were to try and replace who wouldd we ge in for a price that Levy wouldd be prepared to pay, answer we have already seen Andy Booth, Gregor Rasiak, Louis Saha. We allegedly make bids for the Rossis, and Llorientes, and Huntelaars of this world, but do we, because nothing ever happens. I would suggest that we put up with Defoes limitations because we don't have the nouse to find the bargain strikers i.e. Hernandez, Jelavic, Cisse, Ba, Fletcher etc.etc. and lack the financial will to sign the more expensive candidates.
Frank
SRV im sure if Greaves or Lineker would have got slated had they played now...maybe Lineker didnt apply himself as the **** never got booked lol
JattYid
SRV - Defoe is far from crap mate. I heard he is now 2nd in our all time top scorers now?
SpursOne2
Tony as i said above it wasnt a dig at you....btw correct me if im wrong has defoe ever had a proper season i.e 30+ starts?? Im not saying for one second that he would get 20-25 goals in a season, but no striker has a perfeck season (apart from Van *****ie last year) every striker will have 5-6 games spells without a goal, but defoe in his pomp would have reached at least 20goals if played regularily. Obviously im not basing that on fact just my opinion. I also disagree with your point where Defoe waits for somet to happen, remember his goal against Le Ar5e in 5-4 game? Iv seen plenty of times where he forces the issue
JattYid
StillRickyVilla - Defoe is the joint 5th scorer in EPL after 10 games. That is the only way you can realistically compare - just League games. Same number of games, same level of opposition. His goal rate is SO FAR good this season. If the guy gets 15+ in total by end of season, then I will applaud him.
TonyRich
SO2, I agree with your last post, and I was wishing Ade would score yesterday so he might have a better chance of playing sunday.
Ossie
SpursOne2 - This is like Defoe's 10th season in a Spurs shirt. Yes he all accumulated some goals across a decade, but actually his premier league goal record should be better.
TonyRich
JattYid - Defoe has had 5 or 6 seasons with 20+ league starts. If you count just those seasons, he is 1 in 3. Which ain't bad, but far from spectacular
TonyRich
COYS R US "We had a leader on the pitch for once". Glad to see that someone else appreciates what Dawson means to our team. He is a must against City and especially Dzeko.
dannylane
It would have been the icing on the cake for him Ossie, i was screaming for him but alas. Defoe deserved his goals thou, so credit where its due
SpursOne2
What the eck is wrong with 1 in 3 then!?!?
JattYid
SRV - I'm not the biggest fan of Defoe as you probably remember from the debate a few weeks ago. Yesterday I applaud his finishing, very impressive. There are two BUT's I want to throw in. 1) Maribor are hardly a team to score a hat-trick against and then get REALLY excited 2) I read above JD is ranks 5th in EPL terms, now bare in mind as EVERYONE keeps banging on about it, we have played the bottom 6 and from our 10 games. So statistically his goals will dry up or will he keep performing against the top. Let's judge after City and Arsenal away. Well played JD last night, credit where it is due. Don't get too excited yet as TonyRich mentions, lets judge him at the end of the campaign as with all from Levy and then AVB down to the playing staff
yiddyboy
Defoe is 1 in 2 games when you base it on minutes on pitch. If he played 38 leagues games for 90 minutes he would score 19 league goals I guarantee it. Remember for many many years he was playing 2nd fiddle to other partnerships, got subbed a lot, or was on the bench a lot. You have to take that into consideration. Not saying he is perfect by any means and it is disappointing he never developed he's all round game. But play him consistently and you know what you get - 1 goal in 2. Frank makes a good point, I wonder if we will miss that kind of strike rate when he's gone. Arse have currently shelled out fortunes on the likes of Giroud who's hardly scored. You will always be able to find fault in ANY player if you look hard enough. Lets just for once enjoy last night's performance and applaud JD for a well earned hatrick.
StillRickyVilla
JattYid - I never said that he "never" does that. I just think that he is unable to do it enough. I am not having a dig at him. Everyone has limitations. He just has a curious record. Why has he scored over 13 league goals in a season once in a 10-year premiership career? He is not started enough? Well, why? There must be a reason. Why when he was sold, he went for only 6m? Why Pompey, and not a top 8 side, let alone top 6? Why is his penalty record so bad? Why is his assist record so low? Why does he get offside so often? It is just curious.
TonyRich
StillRickyVilla - mate, you cannot guarantee it. Goals from the bench pervert the stats, so you cannot project it that way. If someone comes off the bench for last 10 mins in 3 consecutive games and scores 3, then if you project it, he is scoring 1 goal per 10 mins. 2009-10 18 goals in 34 - excellent record - just over 1 in 2. 2004-5: 13 in 35 ok record - but far from 1 in 2. This last one is a more typical Defoe season
TonyRich
Well said TonyRich. He's a good pro, definitely not International material. IMHO his not good enough for Spurs or at least where I think Spurs want to be!
yiddyboy
Oh and i don't go along with this modern fascination that the only thing that counts, the only competition worthy of anything is the b1oody Premier League. Its so arrogant and dismissive of all other nations, competitions, teams etc. I agree the EPL is the richest and has the best the brand marketing and is basically one big money-making machine. But football? We are so delusional.
StillRickyVilla
(1 goal per 10 mins projects into 9 goals a game, right?)
TonyRich
Thats your opinion i guess and i have mine. One thing i do know he is marmite on Vital Spurs but outside of here most prem clubs bar manchester would take him in a flash
JattYid
Tony, equally you can't blame Defoe for a few poor average seasons when he only playing 20 minutes a game! Its goals per minutes on the pitch that counts over the long-term! I think its around 0.6 per 90 minutes so its actually slightly over 1 goal in 2.
StillRickyVilla
I swear i have read these comments and stats a million times on various articles here lol
JattYid
Anyhoo. Excellent hatrick. I am not an ungrateful b'stard!
TonyRich
SRV - I think Tony Rich is trying to say, scoring 3 against Maribor isn't like 3 against Inter Milan. Different competition, different level. EPL is the fairest way to judge a player as the opposite is the same for all players in it.
yiddyboy
Viyyash-Ramosh The other thing about having Ade in the free role is that it keeps Bale out wide for a lot more of the game so we have a fast counter attacking pace again. I don't get the moaners and whingers on here. We won and we won looking pretty good apart from a couple of mishaps. The attitude was there and that is what was most important about last night. If we go out with a good fighting attitude and throw the kitchen sink at citeh on Sunday and can keep it tight at the back we stand a really great chance of beating them. Two up front, pretty obvious who they are IMHO LOL with Sandro (if fit) behind them Bale and Lennon out wide. I'm still not sure about the 'keeper though, I would probably have lloris as he would, I feel, be more able to deal with the fast runs bursting through our defence if they manage to beat the offside, but then the back four are used to BF and to have a 'keeper they are not that used to playing with in such a high pressure game might not work out that well. I can see AVB's predicament in this department, thing is Lloris is a better sweeper 'keeper. Problem is if lloris is dropped his confidence may start to drop as well. Ho Hum, best to leave the team selection to the person who knows best then, a certain AVB.
chrishove123
Shannon A lot of the balls Bale was putting in were not accurate enough, hence no one could get on the end of them, or he had no one to aim for so HAD to cross and hope someone would get there or lose the ball.
chrishove123
I think Defoe is our top scorer having passed Teddy Sherringham, for domestic games and only second behind, I think Martin Chivers, including Europe. For the JD haters this is really really (crap isn't it. He should be the WORLDS top scorer especially with the lack of minutes played last season. I just wish we had a striker who was that (rap when I was playing. A hat trick is a hat trick and you can't take that away from him, plus how many goals would we have scored last night if he hadn't of played, just think on that one JD haters. Probably NONE and then you would have been slating AVB for not playing two up front. There is no pleasing some people is there?
chrishove123
Why don't we judge Defoe at the END of the season. Same goes for AVB. END of the season so that we can see where we are going.
chrishove123
Chrishove, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm no Defoe hater, even though he's short, misses opportunities and has a childlike selfishness about wanting to be the one who puts the ball into the net. Dempsey is like that too, and I wonder if we can accommodate two selfish gits in the same side. Neither will pass to a teammate in a better position, they'll always shoot, even if its highly speculative. And it wouldn't be so bad if it came off more often.
Shannon
And one last though for today: Just because we lose doesn't mean we played badly, and just because we won doesn't mean we were great, though we have a right to be happy.
Shannon
dannylane Yeah agreed i loved the way he was marshalling the "troops" for the corners etc. and Shannon Defoe is a STRIKER not simply a forward like Dempsey. As a striker it is instinct to shoot on sight and be selfish, as stated earlier by someone, how on earth would lineker or even greaves be treated by most on here???
chrishove123
The issue with Defoe is against the best he goes missing .
Defoe has a certain level ,or standard where he is brilliant .But there is a limit to what he can do .
Defoe is not a great striker ,never has & never will be .Well done for the hat-trick last night .But the best can do it against the best ,anytime ,any place, anywhere .
I used to be a fan of Defoe but you can really see why manager after manager ends up benching him .He`s scored more goals coming off the bench than any other EPL player ,there`s reasons for that .
big cockeral
the point about last night was that it clicked. The combination worked, which is something we haven't really seen at the lane so far this season (though repeatedly at away games). Doesn't matter who the opposition is (for the record I think that Maribor are a lot better than a lot you lot give them credit for), as long as you ping quick passes to eachother, look in good shape and boss the game then it is a very positive, and this was down imo to 1. adebayor being back and replacing Sigs/Dempsey in linking the play up as the AM/deep lying forward, he is so good at that 2. Bale and Lennon finding the space and staying wide 3. tom carrolls movement, passing and fresh energy, I cannot rate that performance by the boy highly enough, he constantly moved to find space in a Xavi-like way, assisted a goal with a great first time pass and made some awesome passes to Bale and Lennon. Will be interesting to see how he does in England with less space and time but an immense prospect nonetheless!
wiltshirespur
Kyle Naughton put the French goalkeeper under pressure with a shoddy backpass and Lloris tried and failed to dribble past Beric, who relieved him of the ball and rolled it into the empty net. Lloris looked shaky for the remainder of the game, giving a clue as to why Villas-Boas prefers to start Brad Friedel in the Premier League, although the manager insisted the goalkeeper bore no blame for Maribor's goal. "Sometimes things happen like that," he shrugged. "It's more to do with what we want to do with the ball, we don't just want to whack it, we want to play it from the back. So we assume that risk. It could happen to any goalkeeper during any game. It will not affect my decision-making."
chrishove123
Look, this is just like after the Wigan game in November 2009. Everyone going on about how great Defoe was and that it didn't matter that he really had no chemistry with Keane, that Crouch was Crouch and that Pav was in Harry's I can't see you books. We need a striker who can maximize the opportunities that are there every game. We didn't lose to Wigan because we had no chances. We didn't lose to Chelsea because we had no chances. WBA, Newcastle etc. In other games where it should have been done and dusted by the half, we were still in 0-0 draws. Not for lack of opportunities. I am happy for Defoe. All I am saying is if he is our up top lone striker, we will want for goals. I am also saying that we will not be going in to City and Arsenal and getting 5 chances (header, scuffed shot, two crosses he did not get on the end of, a feed from Ade he miscontrolled and then the goal - that's 5 plus 1) as easily as we did against Maribor. Maribor and Panathanaikos should have been away wins. Loads of chances. Ade created tons yesterday. That was the missing link. We still need someone strong and clinical if we are to progress. But then, that's been the story for 5 years. COYS
peterballb
I couldnt go last night but watched recording at midnight(yeah, crazy!). The fans were brilliant last night. Sang non-stop. No stupid booing after Haribo's equaliser. And a good performance. Coys!
Gazzaron
Frank, there are always guys that can be had for a reasonable fee. Rossi has become reasonable because of injury, Llorente because he's out of contract etc. But we aren't going to get these guys. 5 windows ago I suggested Castaignos, Kroos and Arnautovic. Guess what? All three could be had still and all three have talent and, while young, compete and have experience. If you watch enough football, you can find the guys. Leandro would be ideal, but I don't see that we will beat out Barca, RM, Inter, AC and Chelsea and ManU unless to Spurs is where he wants to come. For me, it would be Castaignos. Affordable, strong, knows where the back of the net is and has so much upside potential. COYS
peterballb
chrishove123 - Lloris didn't look shaky after the goal at all. He kept playing his game of retaining possession. My idea of shaky would be row Z every time he received the ball. The only time he missed something was when their forward won a header before he could punch it. If that was Friedel he'd have still been on his line anyway. Sometimes I wonder whether I'm watching the same game as some of the posters on here!!!
yiddyboy
peterballb ONLY 5 years? LOL
chrishove123
yiddyboy i thought the same .If Friedel plays against Manchester City then it may be wise to watch it from behind the sofa .
big cockeral
chrishove123, why do we need tio give Defoe to the end of the season? He has had a couple of seasons in this league already. Best total, 18 goals with 8 scored in 2 appearances. This is Defoe. It always has been. Scores in bunches, then nothing for a long time. If he's accumulating tons of assists and helping others to score, fine, but as you correctly mention, he shoots on sight even if others are better positioned to score. Yes, three assists this season. 2 scuffed shots and an assist. It's just same old, same old. Not good enough. 15 appearances. He has scored in 5. 47 shots, 14 on goal. This has all happened before. I would rather see Dempsey with Adebayor because I believe they can both work off of each other. I do not see Defoe making Adebayor in to a better scorer. It will all go one way, which is fine if Defoe is making up for Ade's goals. That has never been the case with any partner Defoe has had. Crouch benefitted him, but his goals dried up. Keane, same thing. It has all happened before. I wish him well and hope he bangs in 30. It's what we need. COYS
peterballb
It was also mentioned yesterday that Naughton passed the ball back to Lloris' off foot which made him have to dribble to change to his shooting foot. Anyway. He wasn't shaky and his quick transition was in large part responsible for the advantage and subsequent goal, so you take the good with the bad. Any keeper needs to play every week to be sharp. The more they play, the better they look. Lloris is in most people's top 5 keepers in the world. I fail to understand why this is so difficult to fathom. In the MLS playoffs yesterday I watched 2 of the many young American keepers who are way ahead of Friedel as far as talent and ability go. They all make mistakes. They all also make saves that Brad would not get a hand to. We need a keeper to steal us games or we need our players to start scoring 3 goals a game. COYS
peterballb
Defoe's stats have consistently been 1 goal for every 90 minutes played. Last season he was better than that because Harry got it right. Impact sub. Running at tired defences with a second striker out there was the best scenario for Defoe. Other than that, .6 goals per 90 minutes in League and Cups. Pav had the same stats for his time at Spurs. This year, 5 goals in 12 appearances with 5 from the bench. Guess what? .6 goals per 90 minutes. It's just what the two are. ok. COYS
peterballb
Sorry, not 1 goal per 90 minutes, rather .6 goals per 90 minutes. Way ahead of myslef.

Main thing was that we won a must-win game at home and dominated. This side has always been more comfortable with a 4-4-2 setup and I believe such a formation would really allow Dembele to dictate matches from the middle with the cover from the Beast that is Sandro. Carroll looked very good yesterday too, I thought. Some very incisive passes. He has very good vision and I still see him developing in to a Modric/Carrick cross. COYS
peterballb
But Peter article is about Ade and Defoe's performance last night, no1 is sayin Defoe is the striker we need to take us to the next step. And the games you pointing out, you can't honestly say the reason why we lost these games is because of Defoe didnt score, Im not sure who this striker is that scores every chance. I agree we need better, but to criticize a striker after scoring a hat trick last night ( the only man to score) is way beyond harsh!!!
Ossie
Any sense in that ?
big cockeral
But Ossie, there you have it. The only man to score. This is what the entire system relies on, Defoe to score. We have seen, year after year, that he scores in bunches and more often than not, does not score. As to the article, other than the title, it was not about one game. You like Defoe. That's cool. For me, he does nothing to make anyone else better and thus needs to put 30 in the back of the net in the PL. COYS
peterballb
peterballb because he is playing under a different manager with a different regime and a different philosophy which may well work in Defoe's favour, rather than be made to feel like an outcast. Also you can't judge ANYONE on less than half a season. You may as well say we judge AVB now and get rid of him because some people don't rate him.
chrishove123
So you really have a problem with AVB's system Peter?? I don't think the system relies on 1 person to score the goals, Ade, Lennon and Bale had chances last night.
Ossie
Peterballb, you are normally spot on but your judgement is way off on Defoe. You could analyse ANY Spurs player (with the possible exception of Bale), compare them with the best and say they are not good enough. You love Sandro for instance, but where is his positional sense, discipline, forward passing, vision and concentration? What i'm saying is you can find weak-links in ANY of our players if you look hard enough and compare them with the best out there. Look, we KNOW Defoe is not a world class striker. But the fact is he DOES bring pace, movement, tenacity and goals to the table. He's settled, knows the English game inside out, loves Spurs and appears to get on well with his team-mates. I wish people would take a step back and consider the positives before mindlessly bashing Defoe with total goal statistics from seasons where he was hardly playing!
StillRickyVilla
peterballb I personally, on Lloris's showing so far, don't think he is yet ready for the prem. Give him a bit more time to settle down and he will be fine but as I have said before this game he does look nervy to me, I feel that i do know a little bit about 'keepers and playing there and the mentality of 'keepers because i played as a 'keeper for over 35 years, a few years at a reasonable level but the last five or so at pub team level because I was playing until I was nearly 50, but 'keepers are a breed apart and they really are not that well understood by outfield players and are often marked out as mad or crazy and it is well known they have a different temperament to other players.
chrishove123
its a shame ppl always judge Defoe who's only 5'7'' and naturally not stocky like a Tevez or Rooney when JD is a lone-striker... its not his strength, but when you add a target-man like Ade (who also plays in midfield half the time) to OCCUPY centre-backs THEN THAT FREES UP SPACE FOR jd TO MAKE INCISIVE RUNS AND SCORE GOALS.... its wrong and quite lazy to just say JD can't do this or that, as its how the team plays and creates space for each other that is moot, and Ade is the best by a mile at creating space/chances for others either by a direct pass or indirectly 3-4 passes later... Ade AND Defoe please, not either/or..
Viyyash-Ramosh
chrishove123, you can judge AVB now, but you'd have to do it based on his entire record. Two plus years, a winning percentage that is more than decent, three titles. 10 League games is not enough to judge him on Tottenham. Defoe has played under 4 managers at Spurs, in several formations and his results have been the same regardless. .6 goals per 90 minutes played. He is not 22. We are not discussing a kid who just needs a run of games. He's had it. 126 goals in a Spurs kit shows that he has been here for some time. To say we have to wait until season's end is ridiculous. We've seen his best - 18 goals in over 28-90 minute games, or, dare I say it, .6 goals per 90 minutes. The same as Pav had that season where he scored 5 in 8-90 minute games. The only difference was the number of minutes on the pitch. AVB is with a new team. Defoe has played with Lennon, Hudd, Dawson, Bale, BAE and others on numerous occasions. Just like VDV benefitted from the strikers he played with while kneecapping their production, Defoe will never make anyone else around him better while needing to be the focus if we are to get the .6 goal per 90 minutes. 3 goals yesterday does not hide the fact that he scored 1 goal in his previous 600 minutes for Spurs. This is and has been Defoe. Why will it be any different this season? He is what he is. COYS
peterballb
Too many are defending our average players far too much .
But don`t cry like a bitch when we`re mid table .But be positive ? maybe some people know their $hit
big cockeral
I agree SRV. Certain posters have a blind spot when it comes to Defoe, and I wonder if it is the usual catch all nonsense that because he's English he is subject to greater scrutiny than a foreign counterpart. Also, I would like to praise Lloris. His reaction to that goal was the apotheosis of gentlemanly conduct. I could imagine many a 'keeper with bigger egos and less talent turning on Naughton for the hospital pass he gave him last night. His reputation, already high in my eyes, went up a notch. Villas Boas has got to decide whether it is right to diminish the reputation of one of the world's top goalkeepers, and place undue pressure on him every time he plays, purely to stretch the career of a goalkeeper who is patently not going to get any better, and, more importantly, is not as good as the man warming the bench now anyway. It is time this embarrassing situation was ended, and Hugo rightfully take the jersey. End of rant.
lordjohnny
peterballb OK fair point you can judge him on his past record. I misworde3d it, and just for all you nit pickers out there I will re-word it. You can't judge AVB on his managership of Spurs until the end of the season. Especially now when we have so many players out and so many of the players he has left at his disposal are the fringe players that even HR wouldn't play and are also ones that most people on here last season were screaming about getting rid of because they were not good enough for Spurs. To counter your question, why shouldn't it be any different. Already he is playing less selfishly, he is holding the ball up a bit he is running off the ball to create and open up spaces for others to run into and he is going back to defend. He has, under AVB, broadened his game in a short space of time, THAT is why i say he should be given until the end of the season, he IS a different player from the one we saw under HR.
chrishove123
Viyyash-Ramosh, that's all well and good, but until last season, where as an impact sub he scored more often than ever before on a per 90 minute basis, he has always been used in a 4-4-2 and has scored at the rate of .6 goals for every 90 minutes on the pitch. The problem isn't the goals he scores, it's the goals that inevitably come off of the stats of others as a result of them having to create for Defoe and see so many chances spurned. If you believe that Adebayor and Defoe will make up for Defoe, VDV and Ade's goals last season, I'm down with that. I just don't see Ade, in the VDv role scoring more than 5-10 and definitely don't see Defoe netting 30. It will wind up a net loss in goals for, and we need more goals and we need to convert all of these crosses.

I am not slating Defoe. I am saying it's same old, same old, and just like everyone got carried away with Defoe's production after the Wigan game (on pace for 38 goals) they are getting carried away here. The difference was Ade who unlocked the defence which benefitted Defoe and the more "Spurs comfortable" 4-4-2. I still believe Dempsey and Ade will offer more as a partnership than Defoe Ade. My opinion. COYS
peterballb
chrishove123, I expect we will see more of the Defoe of the previous 6 appearances than what we saw last night. Last night was, nonetheless, a continuation of the missed crosses theme. They are still being thrown in by Lennon and Bale and he has already had a hundred matches, if not 200 to get an idea as to what they will do. Bale's crosses are almost always with the same pace and in the same area and sent in quickly. Lennon's have much more variety, but yet, Defoe seems to get Lennon much better than Defoe. We'll see. No one on here believes we don't need a Leandro like striker. COYS
peterballb
lordjohnny Don't get me wrong, I really rate Lloris but i am still unsure about how ready he is to step in as no. 1 just now. I know he needs game time with his back four and what better way to give him that time than to play him in the cup games. I do feel that he is the future for us but not just yet. Yes BF ISN'T going to get better, but until he starts to actually lose us games with his blunders he will be no. 1 in AVB's eyes. and yes I know he won't pull off any match winning saves because he can't any more but i think give it until about 2/3rds the way through the season and, that is if he does figure in AVB's plan for the future, he will be instated as our no. 1. But until then we have to be patient because we are NOT privy to what is going on in training and behind the scenes or any talks that AVB, BF and HL have had, so NONE of us are any the wiser than anyone else. All we can do is wonder and speculate on rumour which some on here like to make up and conjecture.
chrishove123
peterballb A lot of Bale3s crosses were ineffective due to them not being accurate enough, it's all well and good banging them in but they have to be accurate, some were too far in front some were too high and he even crossed when there was no one there so how is ANYONE supposed to score off that? Also how many strikers in the Prem are 30 plus per season, precious few and we can't afford or refuse to afford the transfer fees and the wages for such a player rto come in.
chrishove123
If Defoe hadn't have scored three last night we would have lost 0 1 because Ade never looked like scoring and nor did anyone else.
chrishove123
Catch you later guys, off to do the dreaded fortnightly shopping. ARGHHHHHHH
chrishove123
peterballb
Don`t hurt Defoes feelings ,do you actually realise how hard his life is ? pathetic mate ,talk about kick a man while he`s down .
big cockeral
Was it me or did Bale look uninterested in the celebrations last night? He was outstanding but doesn't look a happy bunny!!!
woodyn17
Jermain was clinical last night, so well done for that. You cannot critisise any player who scoes a hatrick, no matter who the opposition are. However, I'll admit that I've found Defoe to be a source of frustration over the years. However, this year, apart from a few bad days (every player has them), I've been more impressed with him than ever. With this being one of the few games they have played together from the start since Adebayor arrived, I was impressed with the partnership last night, and even more so about the potential it has. Ade is a better all-round player, Defoe is the better finisher: Could be the makings of a beautiful partnership
SpursEagle
chrishove123- Lloris not ready? NOT READY? He's France's No 1, not some rookie plucked out of the Isthmian League by Tony Parks. How much did we pay for him? Any other prominent international who was captain of his national side in any other position would not be expected to sit out so many games and be regarded as No 2 in that position. Jaysus, Villas Boas has got to put him in, for the longer this goes on, the worse it will be for the manager, who is making an unnecessary rod for his back, and placing undue pressure on the keeper, as even now, everyone is waiting for any error to justify his exclusion, which is totally unfair.
lordjohnny
Peter..... As always your stats are spot on, if football were played on paper you'd be a great manager. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for the viewer, football is played on the pitch and no amount of stats is ever going to change the fact that Defoe is currently the best finisher at the club. A couple of weeks ago you stated that Ade playing the in the Dempsey role with Defoe up front would, in you opinion, be a mistake. No doubt you scoured the net for negative stats on Defoe before coming to your conclusion and could if pressed have reeled them off in your usual fashion. Hows this for a stat for you, Defoe and Adebayor have only started together 8 times and of those 8 games, we've won 7. Pure luck I guess, I look forward to reading your stat laden response.
Jeez, I swear some on here would rather we lose when Defoe starts as it gives them some sort of sad little "I told you so" buzz. Much as I don't rate Adebayor, I never fail to praise the guy when he performs and as I said last night. His control in the build up to our 3rd goal (note I said 'our') should be regarded as as much of an assist as the pass Bale made for JD to tuck away.
thfc1882whl
woodyn17... I noticed that too, maybe it was the knock on the chin he took and the fact that the ref was letting some cynical challenges on him go unpunished. Thought the ref was looking to send him off at one point.
thfc1882whl
The crosses from Bale have been the same for years. It's up to Defoe to get there. Because Bale almost always goes to the by-line, there is rarely an issue of offside. Defoe just has to get there. Dempsey did it as you may recall against Lazio (wrongly called back). Defoe tennds to get ahead of the play and does not allow himself the opportunity to adjust. Granted, not much time, but since we all know what's coming, so should he. We need these opportunities to be converted on. That's all I am saying. We can't continue to rue all of these missed chances. The team will not play well every week or deserve to win every week, but if your keeper steals a few, if you execute corners and free kicks and you convert more opportunities than most, you will be in the top 4. As wingers, Bale and Lennon are probably the best pairing vis-a-vis chance creation so far this season. The assist totals show that these chances are not being converted. COYS
peterballb
Lord J. friedel is no 1 until loris earns it, which he hasn't done yet. He will so have some patience, and some respect for Brad.
SpursEagle
thfc1882whl, funny that, I never look at stats to create an argument. I use stats to see if what I am appreciating from the games is what's actually happening. People slated Pav. Useless donkey. Then I show that the useless donkey scores as often as the great little guy and I am bad for it. .6 goals per 90 minutes on the pitch is not enough. I count 9 times they have started together in all competitions. Defoe in those 9 has 8 goals and one assist. Adebayor has 5 goals and 2 assists. Defoe's assist was in a game Adebayor did not score and one of Adebayor's 2 assists was in a game where Defoe didn't score. Thus, this partnership, has managed to create at most 1 goal. Both strikers can score in their own right. The last 5 joint starts, Adebayor has 0 goals and 0 assists. These stats, no matter how useless you wish to consider them, show that the two together benefits Defoe who will score at just above his normal rate, but greatly diminishes the returns for Adebayor. The end total does not add up to the same amount. My opinion was the same vis-a-vis VDV. Always looks good for VDV but worse for the lone striker. The sum was a diminished return.

That said, roll with the stat of 7 wins out of 8. Play them. If we win 7 of 8, I'll happily accept it. The goals just have to come from somewhere and I don't see Defoe all of a sudden upping his game to be better than he has been in his previous 343 PL appearances. Be happy to be wrong. At some point though, stats, IMO, become significant enough to draw a conclusion from them. I will also say that again, yesterday, no one was near the crosses. If not the striker, who in God's Green Earth is to be on the end of them? Should we just tell Bale and Lennon to stop wasting their time? I don't need stats for that. It's what I see with my own eyes game after game. COYS
peterballb
So when City score 4 past Friedel maybe the penny will drop ?
big cockeral
SpursEagle, what of the respect owing to a top 5 in the world keeper? Friedel would not be in the top 5 American keepers at the moment and not one of those that are in contention for the US National Team are anywhere near the level of quality that Lloris is. Does respect not go both ways? You don't bring in a top keeper to sit him. Would Buffon be on the bench? Casillas? Out of respect for Brad? Come on. COYS
peterballb
AVB is a pro, put yourself in his position. After Tottenham, Freidel will probably have to retire and that can be any day now. But that means lots to Freidel cause he will probably will NEVER play at the highest level FOREVER/finito; while Lloris has years of playing ability to come with us. AVB is being sensitive with this case/Friedel, even if this cost us a few points, considering that he is still able to perform and Lloris can still be patient a wee bit more. Otherwise, AVB, if he had a heart of stone, would have Lloris starting and drop Friedel who, even though is a tough man, could still get hurt by this treatment. Put yourselves in Freidel's position too [this is the end of my career, let me enjoy it a bit more and i'll do my best]. Deschamps can squeal all he wants for now, it makes no difference as in the near future Lloris will soon be No 1 and this will be all forgotten. He'll prob later squeal that Lloris is being overplayed...yeesh.
dcruzer
...But I have a feeling that AVB will start Lloris for the game against Man $hitty, cause he'd want to shut up Deschamps before the international break, or Le Arse to use his hot form and regained confidence after the break against a big team.
dcruzer
Whay are people acting like their patience in football ?
A players career last between 10 -15 years ,he has to make the most of that .
Expect the last year with gareth Bale by his body language .

How many projects do Spurs have to have ?

Hugo Lloris did not come to sit on the bench with a mid table side .How arrogant are we ? Yes he should fight for his place ,but friedel is shockingly $hit & IMO one of the worst keepers in the league .
Is Lloris up against Hart ?
big cockeral
The difference in the Chelsea game was that Cech made two top notch saves. Friedel didn't. It's the difference between CL and Europa. Top keepers steal games. Friedel will not do that. He just won't throw it in to his own net. He won't come for crosses and corners, he will still lack push to his left and will continue to concede goals. Against Chelsea, we needed two saves. Three of the four goals were savable as I have seen keepers (De Gea, Cech, Hart, Lindegaard, Mannone) make such saves this season. Hart made about 4 in one CL game that Friedel would never have gotten to. It is the difference. Gomes makes such saves but has reliability issues. Lloris makes top saves as well. The two also save penalties. Friedel has conceded his last 18. COYS
peterballb
I haven't read all the comments but did watch the game. Amazing that just because we played Adebayor and Defoe it must therefore be a 4-4-2. Amazing that if Dempsey had played exactly the same position as Adebayor it would have been a 4-2-3-1. Perhaps someone can remind me exactly how often Adebayor was up front in the whole game?
muttley
dcruzer, you are presuming that this is not having a negative effect on Lloris. He needs to be playing every week and in the big games. What if he throws his toys out of the pram at the end of the season? I have to say, if we were getting Lloris just for the cups, why not leave him where he was for another year on loan. Let Friedel go at year's end and hopefully boost the market value for Gomes who has two years left and has said he will be returning to Brazil at that time. Any value Gomes had is gone. Cudicini has none and Friedel is done. If Lloris does not appreciate all this, we could have no keeper next season. Lloris is the future and should be the present. Give him butt splinters and he'll wind up no happier than Pletikosa. COYS
peterballb
dcruzer, you are presuming that this is not having a negative effect on Lloris. He needs to be playing every week and in the big games. What if he throws his toys out of the pram at the end of the season? I have to say, if we were getting Lloris just for the cups, why not leave him where he was for another year on loan. Let Friedel go at year's end and hopefully boost the market value for Gomes who has two years left and has said he will be returning to Brazil at that time. Any value Gomes had is gone. Cudicini has none and Friedel is done. If Lloris does not appreciate all this, we could have no keeper next season. Lloris is the future and should be the present. Give him butt splinters and he'll wind up no happier than Pletikosa. COYS
peterballb
We haven't the quality of players to embrace what AVB wants to do and until he gets those players I think he should stick with what the players are comfortable with. With an addition to midfield and another striker and a winger we can embrace AVB plans but not yet.
thfan
Okay, you can call him whatever you want, world class, top 5 in the world etc etc ... The truth is, he hasn't earned his place on what I've seen, and Brad has been great for us. If you can't respect that, then I'm sorry for you. And this is coming from someone who is NOT anti-Lloris. I just feel too many people have bought all the paper talk and from what I've read here, some guys here would walk onto any job in the mass hysterical, over reacting French media. Lloris WILL BE no 1. He's gotta prove it first though.
SpursEagle
lordjohnny Yeah NOT READY. He has done NOTHING top convince mew that he is any better than BF at the moment and as everyone on here knows I am not a fan of BF's at all. I just caqll it as I see it, and as someone who played as a 'keeper for about 35 years or so I think I have a touch more insight into 'keepers than most. IF he were ready do yopu not think he would be -playing. There is a VALID REASON why he is not playing and neither you nor I are privy to it, so stop saying AVB has GOT TO put him in. Do you know how he looks or is in training? Do you know how well he has gelled with the other players? Do you know how well his English allows him to communicate with the rest of the team? If do please enlighten us all, until then everything you say about the situation is bollox and you know it because you nor I nor anyone of us on here know what is going on and what has been agreed between the three of them. Until you DO know you have nothing to say about it that will make sense about AVB HAVING to play HL. There are plenty of more expensive top world class players who just couldn't hit the ground running in the PREM.
chrishove123
peteball.... I see your points but you are thinking in 'straight lines' when you clinically extrapolate that Defoe scores 'x' goals per minutes played and Ade scores 'y' amount.... you dont account for the the TYPE of chances and space JD gets when Ade's diverting 6ft+ centre-halves away from the 5'7'' Defoe, the way the team has a proper outball under pressure from attacking teams with Ade, rather than 50yd highballs to the diminutive Defoe, the way way the wingers can stay wide cos there are now TWO players to aim passes to in the box, etc..... the counter-attack under pressure is far more viable when Ade is in the team to aim clearances which miraculously become successful long balls outta defence when they are won by Ade and he makes it stick until the cavalry arrive in the OPPOSITION'S half.... there are so many synergies that occur with Ade in the team with a clinical and even half liberated (from strapping centre-halves) Defoe... we played very well early last season when Ade 1st joined eg. Liverpool game
Viyyash-Ramosh
...... and check out the assists Defoe got on a per minute basis last season too, if you think he doesnt help in others scoring.... it may well surprise you just how many assists he got last season, even when playing on and off..
Viyyash-Ramosh
Oh by the way the reason Bale was yawning and looked "disinterested after the game could well be down to the fact that he has just had a baby and he is suffering from a lack of sleep, not because he is p1ssed off or wants to go, maybe if people looked at the WHOLE picture they wouldn't start all this bull$hit about players wanting out. Just a thought.
chrishove123
Viyyash-Ramosh on top of the runs he makes to open gaps for others to run into.
chrishove123
SpursEagle, what more does he need to do? He has been the team Captain and number 1 for France for a while. He is regarded by most experts in Football as a top 5 keeper, in the world, and is on all top 10 lists I have seen. You can't earn a spot unless you play. On international duty he has saved 2 penalties in the last 4 games and made top notch saves in the three games I have seen for France of the past 4. He has 2 wins, 3 draws and 1 loss and has had 2 clean sheets so far for Spurs conceding less than a goal a game. I would suggest to you that you expect Friedel to lose the position and it has nothing to do with Lloris earning it. It would be like saying that if we brought in one of the top 5 strikers in the world, he would have to sit because Defoe is ok. You can't be charged with errors if you go for nothing. Brad constantly allows the opposition to heap unending pressure on us in games where we are trying to hold a slender lead. WBA, Norwich, Chelsea even ManU we were getting killed because our keeper does not come out and claim all these crosses and corners. He also slows down the attack and gifts possession when he kicks the ball deep. lloris generally throws the ball which was why we hit Maribor for the one goal. The more you come for, the more likely you are to make mistakes. The converse is that the more you take and deal with the less pressure your D is under. COYS
peterballb
Viyyash-Ramosh, on the contrary, that's exactly what I am saying. The sum of the parts will always be less. Defoe may well get better numbers but Adebayor's will get worse. The issue is that Defoe and Adebayor accounted for 28 goals last season. Playing as they did yesterday, do you see 28 goals from the pair? Defoe has only once managed 18. Adebayor was rarely in a scoring position yesterday. I agree that Adebayor must be in the team for the reasons you mention. Defoe, by my count, scored on his 6th chance. It's rare in a PL match to get that many chances in a game, let alone in half an hour or so. That's not clinical, it's wasteful. Let's see what comes. I expect that AVB will go with his system for the next two Pl matches so it'll be one striker up top. If that's Defoe, we'll be absorbing major pressure. I'd love to see AVB go with a similar lineup but with Sandro and Dembele in the middle for those two away games. Yes, risky, but it will put the opposition under pressure. COYS
peterballb
I don't understand your logic Peterballb, if Ade has scored 5 goals in 9 games while partnering Defoe, how has his (Ade's) goals been "greatly diminished" when Ade at his absolute BEST is usually around a 1 in 2 striker anyway.. Also how did VDV diminish Ade's goal return when Ade had his 2nd most productive season in his entire career with VDV spending half that season playing behind him. Also partnerships between 2 players in football include more than simply directly assisting each other, which seems to be the sole criteria you use for determining whether a partnership is effective or not. It can also include creating space for your teammate with clever movement off the ball, indirectly assisting your partner by supplying the wings with the ammunition, ect ect. Ultimately, the proof for how effective a combination of 2 players is, can be found in the results, both individually and collectively (team results).
Guyver
Viyyash-Ramosh, Defoe got 1 PL assist last season, didn't he? Adebayor 11 and Dempsey 6, if memory serves. Suggesting Defoe is a playmaker is not consistent with anything I have seen and the stats back that up. He'll score in bunches and he'll run around a lot, but when I hear that he is setting up goals and defending, it's just plain fiction. The ManU game. He babysat their CB's as Scholes pulled the strings right in front of him. Was he where AVB wanted him? I don't know. I just know that I have played enough sports to know that I'd have dropped down and taken Scoles out of the game. He was useless up top trying to defend the lead. What outlets did he bring down? What time did he buy for his defenders? None. If he had dropped down he could have marked Scholes right out of the game. That would have been useful.

Anyway, 2 huge games these next two weeks in the PL and we really need to get at least one result. Whoever AVB puts out, I'll back them and hope they succeed. It doesn't mean I'll agree with it though. COYS
peterballb
''....Defoe in those 9 has 8 goals and one assist. Adebayor has 5 goals and 2 assists. Defoe's assist was in a game Adebayor did not score and one of Adebayor's 2 assists was in a game where Defoe didn't score. Thus, this partnership, has managed to create at most 1 goal....''....peterball the above has to be the most ridiculous statement today..... basically youre saying its only valid for strikers to score when the other assists and nobody else... so forget how the TEAM benefits on the whole, forget how the outball to 6'5'' Ade (and not 5'7'' Defoe) is far more productive in keeping leads as well as extending leads thus WINNING games, forget how the wingers dont have to 'come inside' to be strikers thus ruining our natural team-shape... etc, etc..... the fact is the TEAM scores more goals per game, and protect leads better with Ade and Defoe playing.... 8 wins from 9 games is testament to that, glaringly so.
Viyyash-Ramosh
Defoe may have got 1 assist in the PL, but how many games did he start and then fitfully so.... most PL games are against sub-Europa Lge teams and as Defoe got several assists over all the games he played, cherry-picking stats from his PL games when he mostly was 'partnered' by the non-athlete Vaart who left him isolated upfront most of the games played, is pitiful... Defoe WITH ADE especially in the team is very productive with goals and assists
Viyyash-Ramosh
I dont care about France, or the French League. I care about us. And for me, he's looked nervy, and has shown is is as prone to errors as anyone (and that is not a criticism). For me, he hasn't earned his place yet. look, I respect your passion in wanting him as no 1 (and in my opinion he will be: and when he is I'll accept and support him as such having earned it), but the treatment of Brad on here is out of order, and where my problem does lie. Before Friedel came, I used to get slagged off by fans of other clubs about Gomes. Not one person has slagged me about the Spurs keeper situation since Friedel arrived. For me, that says it all. The only slagging of Friedel I've come across is from Spurs fans, especially here. Draw your own conclusions, or don't, I don't care. But your treatment of a man who gave us pride back in the 'Keeper jersey is pretty shoddy to put it mildly. Okay, Friday night beer time with my extremely patient lady! Good night all and COYS
SpursEagle
.... and your summary of Defoe used as a lone-striker, as in the Utd game, just shows how silly it is playing him as such, so I too agree that Defoe is NOT a good lone-striker.... but when he is 'partnered' by someone like Ade who can flit from midfield to the penalty-box within a few seconds and thus divert/dilute the attentions of both centre-backs) then Defoe is a different, and far more deadly and productive striker...
Viyyash-Ramosh
I do see how Defoe has potentially had a negative effect on Demps and Siggy, who were both playing with big target men at their former clubs (Graham, Zomora/Pogrebnyak) but we won't know to what extent until Siggy or Demps are started with Ade.
Guyver
chrishove123- I'm curious. What is this GELLING business? I hear so much about it these days from all sorts of mouth-breathing know-nothings who spout trite meaningless drivel, that, given your huge experience of 35 years in the game, you may have the answer.
lordjohnny
....sorry to keep quoting you peterball....he issue is that Defoe and Adebayor accounted for 28 goals last season. Playing as they did yesterday, do you see 28 goals from the pair? ...'' there you go again in horrendously distorting the truth.... the 2 may have got 28 goals last year, but how many games did they start together in ?.... youre right that Ade wasnt in scoring positions much, BECAUSE that was not his main role, which was to link the play between midfield and pen-box and to bring others into play effectively thus enabling the TEAM to overall score 3 goals (irrespective of who got them).... but didnt Ade also not score at a near 1 in 2 game rate last season (as well as providing a dozen assists or so) ?
Viyyash-Ramosh
lordjohnny Oh wonderful just because you don't understand something someone else says they are moth breathers, well maybe you ought to get up to speed with The vernacular, or are you one of these mouth breathers that you are on about, because people who insult others by calling them derogatory names such as mong mouth breather etc. are usually guilty of being such a person themselves who's only defence is to insult others with their own inadequacies because they are not intelligent enough to be able to hold their own in a coherent manner during a conversation between civilised people.
chrishove123
Moth breathers LOL I obviously meant mouth breathers, I don't know anyone who has breathed a moth. LOL
chrishove123
lordjohnny Maybe you are either too old or too young to be able to keep up with modern day English......
chrishove123
lordjohnny Maybe you are either too old or too young to be able to keep up with modern day English......
chrishove123
Can we win on Sunday?? On paper I guess not but we have been good away. COYS & WIN X3
Madaboutspurs
Peterball, you seem to have forgotten that it is a TEAM game.
chrishove123
Madaboutspurs maybe not on paper, but the way citeh have been playing, in reality I think we could squeeze a result out of it.
chrishove123
LordJohnny focusing on single words and acronyms again!!?
Guyver
Chrishove123, when have I ever said it was not a team game? Matters not where the goals come from, but if you don't score you won't win. So, where will the goals come from? Our strikers have 7 goals in 10 games (Defoe, Dempsey and Adebayor). Surely we need at least a goal a game from the strikers and contributions from the MF on a regular basis and set pieces etc just to sneak top 4. 37 goals from Keane, Defoe, Crouch and Pav got us 4th in a 4-4-2. Switch to 4-5-1 with no players that could play up top alone and the totals for the strikers and VDV dropped to 31. Bring in Adebayor last season, a player who, while not ideal, had the presence necessary to make up the difference with Defoe as impact sub and the strikers netted 39. Back to fourth. If Ade plays behind Defoe, as he did yesterday, I believe his totals will decline. Dempsey certainly will not have an impact as a MF and Defoe will score as he always has. I believe it will not be enough. Lennon is not a goal scorer. Nor is Dembele. Nor is Sandro. Where, if not the strikers, do you see the goals coming from. If Bale gets 11 again, that will be fantastic. Can we expect that from a winger?

As to, can we win Sunday? Absolutely. City have not blown me away yet. Aguero, Balotelli, Nasri, Dzeko, Tevez all seem to be suffering from the weight of he defence of the crown and the need to win the CL. Their CL play has been average. They are beatable. We need our keeper to make top notch saves (Hart will) and we need to bury our chances. Every game is winnable. COYS
peterballb
SpursEagle, and what I have seen is a much more composed, commanding keeper who has his defence much more at ease. I guess we both see it differently. It does kill me though that we buy one of the best keepers in the world to sit him behind a keeper not in the top 5 of his own country. I'll continue to go with what I see. Name me one game Friedel has stolen us? I can name about 5 in the year Gomes backstopped us to fourth where his brilliance was the difference. Steady hands to be sure. He justvstands there on his line a deals professionally with what comes to him. I was there for Norwich and WBA. Hart would have taken the pressure off. Friedel just kept soaking it up until he got to pick the ball out of the net. Sure, we should have converted our chances at the other end. Then again, one great save each game and it would have resulted in the same. 2 wins in lieu of draws. COYS
peterballb
Viyyash, if Ade's role is what he did yesterday, his totals will suffer. Defoe, as ever, will score at the clip he always has. Who will make up for all of the missing goals? That is my question. Defoe has 5 in 10. Scores about 1 for every 10 shots. It's not good enough. He will not have the space against City or Arsenal that he did yesterday. We need about 2 goals a game to get top 4. Strikes will have to come up with half of that. COYS
peterballb
peterballb Yeah the defence was so at ease they thought that a really casual backpass that cost us a goal was the order of the day. LOL
chrishove123
Good to see the team in a confident mood. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/nov/09/jan-vertonghen-tottenham-manchester-city
chrishove123
Peterballb....... Do you have the ear of Mr Levy because you seem to reel off the stats like a fully fledged member of opta. Fair play to you if it's straight off the top of your head mate, I suspect that you trawl for stats more than you care to admit but I'll take your word for it if you say that it all comes from memory. Either way, using stats to select players is exactly what Levy did with Dempsey and if ever there was a reason not to take the 'Moneyball' route, then Dempsey is it.
Viyyash-RRamosh is spot on with his assessment of the two players working in unison and of all the variables that come into play. There are so many possible scenarios that stats become just numbers on a piece of paper every time an attack develops and matches are never won on paper. If you prefer to believe what your eyes tell you, then surely your eyes are telling you that without Defoe this season we'd be bang in trouble with only Ade and Dempsey to rely on. COYS
thfc1882whl
Simple fact: Don't drop Defoe or Lennon until we have someone better to replace them. Simple fact 2: we don't have anyone better! Keep playing them, they are the heart and soul of our team. I love them..
T.H.F.Chris
so it all freidel fault when we loose on sunday no matter what happens deluded ppl on here HH was right, if Lloris was so called world class surely he could of kicked ball clear with hes right foot
123spurs
completely off topic as usual but i had a thought that i needed to share with my fellow "yids",(yeah,i said it). not sure if this has been mentioned before. will this peter herbert clown try to prosecute every one who goes to a hip-hop concert and uses the n-word?.... idiot!.....nice win.coys!
g. roberts testes
I have a strange feeling we can get a big result on Sunday!
HuddersfieldYiddo
123spurs..... Personally I thought that the easier option for a left footed player was to sweep it into touch on his right side as it rolled across his body. This would have taken it away from the advancing player and could have been done with one touch from his natural foot.
thfc1882whl
thfc1882whl Or maybe another (better?) option would be for him to learn to kick with his right foot. As a left footed 'keeper I had to. Does that mean I was better than lloris is. LOL
chrishove123
I would actually like to bring someone else into this conversation though and that is Bale. Where was he? We could see that Naughton had got himself surrounded by their players. We could tell it was a bit of a naive ball from Lloris and we could see Dawson trying to step out and make an angle to receive the ball from Naughton. Where was Bale though, where was Carroll or Hudd and where was Walker to accept a longer ball if he was in line with his other defenders. This is the challenge with Spurs at the moment. It's as if the lot of them have a common sense gene missing from their game. They are definitely not playing for each other and we're seeing a lot of schoolboy errors.
muttley
Without Ade we have no-one to hold the ball up and the ball will keep coming back. Then we'll lose. Simple as that.
Henry Baker Brown
Adebayor in form brings a lot to the team, and I've always felt that he makes Defoe a better and less frustrating player to watch.
LizardSpur
I didn't watch training this week...but this would be my team for man.city. friedel,walker,dawson,caulker,vertonghen, lennon,sandro,huddlestone,bale, adebayor,defoe. subs; lloris,naughton,gallas,falque,carroll, siggurdsen,dempsey.
82spursdebut
I accept that Lloris is our No.1 keeper going forward, but we must accept that he was calpable for Mirabor's goal. Yes it was a poor back pass, but Lloris's decision making was equally poor, he should simply have put his foot through it. I know one thing for sure, had Friedel made the same mistake, he would have got hung, drawn, an quartered on here, and the vultures would have been circling, but Lloris who has now dropped 2 big clangers, against Norwich in the CC, and now Mirabor, and gets away scot free, some are so fickle.
Frank
peterball.... the bigger picture shows that with Ade AND Defoe in the team (I won't call it a pairing cos theyre not) the team overall scores at a faster rate AND seems to be able to sustain leads far better, thus winning games at a remarkable ratio... all the stuff about Ade scores less when deeper is bumkum, cos Ade brings others into scoring positions as well as hugely helping us sustain leads and winning games.... you dont factor in his role in DEFENDING leads, he may well be a bigger factor in defence than any of the official defenders in the team.
Viyyash-Ramosh
Hi my fello Spurs followers. Have you heard the "Football" pundits on Gillette Soccer Saturday having another "go" at AVB. They are such a bunch of *ankers. Then they discuss Liverpool and don't sa a word about Rogers. Where are Spurs in the league to LIverpool....Just another bunch of Harry lovers with so much bias against AVB & our great team..... Your comments appreciated.....
PaulYoung1962
most of the mouthy pundits are either failed managers who haven't a clue eg. Phil Thompson or ppl who've never even managed eg. Charlie Nicholas and le Tissier..... they lack in-depth knowledge of any specific team and go with generalities and cliches recycled in the Media over and over.... keeps them off the streets I suppose, so be grateful.
Viyyash-Ramosh
Frank Totally agree Lloris was culpable, he should have just booted it out of touch or upfield. These two mistakes of his are very reminiscent of Gomes who would have been castigated for doing what Lloris has done, same, as you say, with BF. THAT, much as I hate to say it is why I'm afraid we are going to have to stick with BF for the foreseeable future. Two MAJOR clangers one of which he was exceedingly lucky to get away with (Norwich) and the other which led to a goal. AVB is totally right to play BF instead of HG. He mat be able to do it for France but he has done nothing to make me think he should start for Spurs as number 1. I WAS really excited when we snaffled him but that excitement has turned to well he had better put on a show or else he will never be OUR number 1 as he just doesn't seem up to the job yet. I hope he does make it but i am starting to have my doubts. For the 5th best 'keeper in the world he sure is prone top schoolboy errors.
chrishove123
Hmmmm looks like it could be a real toughie tomorrow if these three are back for citeh with a point to prove. Manchester City trio Joleon Lescott, Maicon and David Silva are hoping to return to action in Sunday's Barclays Premier League game against Tottenham. Defenders Lescott and Maicon – the Brazilian was an unused substitute in midweek – and playmaker Silva are all back in training after spells on the sidelines.
chrishove123
chrishove-You've got a bit of a thin skin then when I react to your original comment that everything I say about the situation is 'bollox'. When someone does that, expect to get soem clog in response. I **** hate mindless cliches by the way, and 'gel' is near the top of that list. 'Coalesce' would be a breath of fresh air. D'oh. I'm at it now.
lordjohnny
Frank - Lloris has made more than two clangers. He has fumbled and dropped the ball twice, he made a mad dash to the left of his area and failed to get the ball leaving an empty goal exposed, he was probably at fault for the first Norwich goal, he made a mistake against Villa which should have cost us a goal, what else has AVB seen in training?? The Brad haters just ignore all this and think they know better than AVB. However, I do NOT blame Lloris for the Maribor goal, that was 100% Naughton's fault. Yes ok he should have just booted it but the ball should never have been there in the first place. Those that are saying Lloris put Naughton in trouble with the throw, that is NOT TRUE. If you watch a replay you will see that Naughton was NOT under any pressure at all when he received the ball. He dallied and allowed opponents time to close him down. When he received the ball, Vertonghen was available, he also had time to turn and pass along the touchline to Bale. He failed to do either.
Hot_Spur
I doubt Bale is too worried about Maicon returning from injury..
Guyver
just spotted Ledders and his boy at the O2 Arena for the tennis, sat next to that Victor Meldrew actor!.... Maicon back is okay, I still remember what Bale did to him at the San Siro 2yrs ago.... its cos Kompany and Nastisic/Lescott will be centre-halves (all big feckers with pace too) thats its imperative to play Ade to mix it with them, or Defoe will be invisible this game..
Viyyash-Ramosh
Bale not only crucified Maicon at the San Siro, he doubly crucified him at WHL.
Hot_Spur
Hot_Spur, it can't be 100% Naughtons fault. Could Lloris have dealt with the situation and prevented the goal? Yes, of course, so he must take his share of the blame, im sure he'd admit to that as well.
Guyver
lordjohnny If you read that comment again you'll see it's not aimed specifically at you. I included myself in it by saying we ALL talk bollox on here LOL. OK we shall skip GEL and COALESCE instead shall we go with combine fuse meld or integrate . LOL
chrishove123
Fellaini is so good, hope we get him and put him with our Dembele and Sandro and that will be fantastic. He can swap position with Dembele because these two Belgians are that versatile.
what_sux
fELLAINI IN THIS sPURS TEAM WOULD BE A DISASTER.... WE'D END UP LOOKING LIKE A BUNCH OF THUGS....
Viyyash-Ramosh
Three all from 2 0 up and then the scum missed a penalty HA HA HA HA HA
chrishove123
Guyver - Naughton is 100% to blame on the basis that it was his initial mistake that caused the problem, the ball should never have gone anywhere near Lloris.
Hot_Spur
Guyver - To put it another way, although Lloris perhaps could have done better, that does not subtract anything from Naughton's mistake.
Hot_Spur
Hot_Spur, if a midfielder loses the ball cheaply in a dangerous area and the team concede a goal because the GK makes a mess of a tame shot, both players share the blame (maybe not equally). Most goals conceded involve more than 1 defensive error. That's what we saw against Maribor, 2 poor decisions that lead to the goal. Naughton shouldnt have played it back, but once he did, Lloris could have easily decided to clear it, as most top GK's would do and have done under those circumstances. Its not the last time Lloris will have to deal with a dodgy back pass, its part of football, hopefully next time he does better.
Guyver
***This won't be the last time Lloris will have to deal with a dodgy back pass................
Guyver
 

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