Why We Can't Win The League

Get AVB the "right" players and you'll be writing a different article JOD. He's a winning-focused Manager but currently (honestly) only has a top5/6 squad, not even enough for top4 (yet)....*just saying

In some ways I agree with what you say, but I think yesterday can be put down to just one of those things. Although when I watched MOTD2 last night it really really *****ed me off when I heard Lloris shout for the ball before the first goal, only for Caulker to clear it straight to an Everton player. The truth of the matter is our players are a mixture of knackered and inexperienced. If you look at our back line they are playing every game - it's hard to maintain a level. There is no back up at all! Things will be a lot different when Parker, Kaboul and Assou-Ekotto are back. I really hope we see them return over the next six games. If we can get a minimum of 14 points from those games, our season will be nicely set up to push for 4th, and it will also put us in a healthy position when someone like Llorente or Moutinho look at the table before deciding whether to join!

Good article Jod and I agree in parts. It is a mentality issue but I do believe AVB will be able to get it right but he will need different players. The problem we have is that our current squad does not have the mental fortitude to actually BELIEVE they can hold on to a one goal lead in the last 10 minutes. At the moment they actually expect to concede at the end of games. We need new players to come in and show those that remain that it is possible to close out games and hold on to wins. It is all about footballing intelligence. This is something I have spoken about in the past. Our current players do not have the footballing intelligence to make the right decisions at the right time when they are under pressure in games. It is not something you can teach players quickly or easily. In fact some players will never be able to achieve it. It has nothing to do with skill it is all about the mind. The great England Rugby Union side that won the world cup had a fantastic mantra that we should take on as a club. They said that in terms of physical attributes and playing abilty the top 5 or 6 sides in the world cup were all the same. The only difference was the extra 10% (what they called the 'top 10%') that is in each player's head. You need a winner's mentality but more importantly than that you have to BELIEVE you will win EVERY GAME and you must EXPECT to win every game. The key is to stop making losing goals and games acceptable and ensuring each player understands that they have a significant and equal part in the repsonsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. Not easy and will need the introduction of new minds more than new talent.

It will take a bit of time for some players to get that 'know-how' to see out games the way more experienced players do. Lads like Caulker, Sandro, Walker, Lloris they are all young and are learning. Of course, the return of Parker, Kaboul and BAE naturally takes us up a level anyway, but the players out there yesterday will get there. Just takes a bit of time. As for the article, AVB has a definite winners mentality, seen across all games, all competitions. Its the difference between someone who puts himself out there as a winning coach of 4 trophies including a Euro trophy and a League Title by the age of 35 and has not made one single excuse since arriving at the club (AVB) to someone who can't wait to get back into a relegation dog-fight so its a no-lose situation for him (Harry). Its comparing apples and pears and am so glad we took the path we did in the summer. I am certain we will get there if this manager and team is given patience and support.

SRV I agree with everything you say. Our man has all the right qualities, but can I ask your opinion on what happens if we finish 5th or lower?

are we anything other than delusional to be expecting us to win the league at this time anyway? I feel that 3rd/4th may be achievable, but equally we could still end up in 6/7th place, such is the openess of the league

To win any title you need a general, whether its the manager, CB, GK or CM. I cant remember the last time Spurs had that sort of influencial figure playing for them, Parker leads by example, King led by example. who is there to shout at the players when there not pulling there weight? Both of those goals could have been prevented yesterday. The first goal conceded everybody was snatching at a clearance like 17 year debutant, and why are sitting so deep in every game? We need a player who is prepared to crack skulls in the dressing room when things get tough.

Hey Seb, i always said i would give the manager AT LEAST a year before any sort of judgement can be made (If its proven that the manager has all the right qualities - which i find it difficult to see that he hasn't - then i would give them at least 3-5 years). This is particularly right in this instance given the loss of our best players in the summer, the huge player change-over, the injuries, the change of system etc. However, i am becoming increasingly impressed with AVB as each week goes by. If i feel that the manager has all the right qualities and is giving it 100% in all competitions and loves the club and the fans and wants to build things for the long-term, then I am happy. What more can he do? No body can say whether we will finish 4th or not. There are such a myriad of different factors, internal and external, many of which are not under the manager's control. But i'm sure this season AVB will get us on a great run at 4th AND a great run at the UEFA Cup and FA Cup. What more can you ask for?

and im far from an avb fan but this isnt his fault either. We have suffered this mental weakness of conceding late for 30 years. Its pathetic.

Sherer4 yes it was on MOTD last night. Games go on for 94-95 minutes though so we have to learn how to play until the end, surely this can we worked on in training. Not playing stupid europa matches for a few months should help with fitness and fatigue.

Yes it does.

lol Sherer4...

Sherer4, if games finished at 80 minutes then we would concede all our goals between 70 and 80 minutes. For me the winning mentality starts with the manager and works its way down to the players. It is also vital that the manager is supported by the board. When AVB came in I thought the plan was to look at young and hungry player. We signed Dempsey and Ade, one because he was all that was available when Levy tried his usual last minute do it on the cheap dealing and the other because he was cheap. They are both decent players but also both pushing 30 and clearly not AVB players. Unless AVB is supported by the board, we have no chance. The things that concern me most watching the games are the inability of the team to keep the ball and the panic that ensues when we are holding a narrow lead. I am sure AVB is working on this. I am desperate for him to do well and we must support him but he needs to change the mentality of the team very quickly otherwise the top four will become completely unacheivable. We have to keep faith in AVB but he must be supported by te board. COYS

This is going to be a bit long but I hope some of you will persevere through to the end and maybe it will help you to overcome the paralysing feeling of dejection which one gets of losing winnable games like yesterday. A friend once explained an important investment concept to me and what he said made such a lot of sense that I decided to make it the focus point of my life. He basically said: If you have an investment you might be sitting on a goldmine but in the beginning (year 1-3) things move along slowly and for this reason your investment might not look like much at that early stage. But because your investment is geared exponentially, in later years the growth will absolutely explode through the ceiling. The trick is to know how to calculate the growth on your investment and then to stick with that investment until it matures into your target value at the end of the term. The problem with most investors is that they become impatient with the slow start and keep on changing their investments which means that they keep on starting over and over and unknowingly repeat the 3 year slow period. Chopping and changing investments is the curse that keeps poor investors poor. Sounds a bit like Spurs with the way we chop and change managers. We might get some short term gains but we lose out long term by not being able to guarantee everlasting success. For that reason AVB must stay for at least 3 seasons even though I don’t like the man that much. I am living proof of the power of exponential growth because since I have been following my friend’s advice I am experiencing riches in my personal life of unimaginable and infinite proportions. Some people will remember me on VS as I used to frequent this site on a daily basis about two years ago (a very big Pav supporter – he could come in handy now for the indifferent Ade – just joking!) and I used to live and breathe spurs and had very little time for anything else in my life, least of all boring stuff like investments, gearing and exponential growth. Although in my heart I still support The Mighty Spurs with the same intensity as before, the big change for me came in the way I think about life, goals and prosperity. I realised that spurs was an obsession with me to the extent that I could not prosper in life because when they won I was invincible and motivated but the very next week when they lost I was dejected, deflated, miserable and inconsolable. Spurs were like an addictive drug. When they won, I wanted more wins and when they lost I couldn’t wait for the next game for them to win again and make me feel good again. The wins filled me with hope but they always had that uncanny knack to disappoint me when I wanted them to win the most. A bit like the Everton game yesterday. After my friend spoke to me I realised that I had absolutely no control over the club that I loved and followed with so much passion. Two years ago I too would have demanded instant gratification and success which would have meant the sacking of AVB because of his relatively poor start. But now I know that he needs time to put his methods, ideas and concepts in place. There is no such thing as everlasting instant success because instant success is exactly that with very little hope of being everlasting as proved over and over at the lane under both sugar and levy. Have a great day guys, got to go, investments to find and money to make!

82spursdebut DID YOU JUST SAY STEFFEN FREUNDS DOURNESS!?!?!?!?!?!?! the nicest and most cheerful man in football is dour!?!?!?!?! wtf... his smile lightens up any room and motivates any player! all together now! I LOVE STEFFEN FREUND...

Conceding in the last minutes has nothing to do with the fitness of the players, it's all in the mentality of the players. Many mention this being a Spurs thing for the last 30 years or so, I also agree. However I believe AVB is the kind of manager to assess the detail of the problem and try and rectify it. I once read "to succeed you need to experience failure!" Also the article mentions 'A team capable of winning the title would have ground out the win' - Just like Man City did yesterday?? When I look at the Utd team sheet my first though is "Nothing special", however Sir Alex has installed this mentality that we need. With Utd's current squad with Steve Bruce or Harry as United Manager, I would say they would struggle to make top 4, they certainly wouldn't win the league!!!

Neymar, unfortunately, the age of the internet has brought with it the age of instant gratification. In particular the over-analysis and nit-picking by fans (often with the benefit of hindsight) of every single aspect of the game is ridiculous. In reality it should be no more difficult than looking at the bigger picture, putting in place a proper long-term strategy, getting the right people in, and letting them build the club over 3, 5, 10, 20 years. That's the only way we can compete. Now over to you ENIC with the new stadium......

oh dear...viv'...your memory is a little lost !....don't worry i know that feeling too !!..lol....coffee helps..

Why We Can't Win The League? Well of course we can the League, but unfortunately it won't happen whilst Daniel Levy is running our club on behalf of the ENIC corporation. It simply won't happen! The money is there, as we have not one but two billionaires on the THFC board, as well several other business partners in the cooperate world worth billions as well. Money is not the issue, because the owners of our club have money in abundance. Unfortunately the billionaires who own our club have decided not to invest their money to a sufficient level in THFC where the club can seriously compete for that title. It's that simple! So the title is not possible under ENIC with the finance they have made available to the clubs coaches... But what about cup tournaments? Well unfortunately we run into another major catch 22 there, because none of the 8 coaches employed by Daniel Levy have been given the freedom to express and create their OWN TEAMS. Players are bought and sold at the club without the permission or approval of the clubs coaches by Levy. That old classic expression "too many cooks spoils the broth" sums up exactly what I'm saying! We the fans have to seriously ask our selves how a tiny up and down the Leagues club like Portsmouth can reach not one, but two FA Cup finals in the last five years (winning 1) whilst THFC through the entire Sugar/ENIC mafia years, going right back to 1991 have failed to reach a single FA Cup final? Couldn't be anything to do with Sir Sugar and his apprentice Danny Boy, Could it???

To me it is evident why, despite Dawson's great commitment to Spurs, AVB was prepared to release him - because his clearances are rarely effective. Instead injuries have enforced his retention; AVB has worked on Michael, and his clearances are improving. In the Everton game, we kept a clean sheet for 89 mins for a variety of reasons, but one was that we made clearances accurately to a number of different target players who took up positions to receive them. As we edged closer to winning, this discipline began to erode, and Caulker began the slide to defeat by ignoring Lloris' call and returning the ball to the opposition. He did the same thing against Wet Spam recently - two lapses, two goals. Hopefully just about now, AVB will be patiently explaining to Caulker what he did wrong, and things will continue to improve. Earlier in the game Caulker tended to err on the side of caution and clear to touch under pressure, and this is at least better than giving the ball away. It is not, however, as good having the presence, as Lloris generally does, to FIND the pass which will ease pressure rather than increase it. It is saddening the way we, the supporters, forget good habits just like the players, and as soon as things go wrong we return to pessimism. But we do NOT have a poor squad we have a good squad which, with hard work and familiarity will get better. We must discourage 'lumping', and play the Spurs way, to feet or into space. Get behind the team - this was an encouraging performance, several minutes short of a great victory. COYS!!

pelebro'.....i'm starting to agree with you on enic / levy. I.e...i feel gutted that the new stadium completion date has been put back. The bricks should have been going down now........for the stadium to be ready for ...perhaps not next season but the season after.

82Spurs Freund never scored for us.

if anyone was to blame yesterday, it is Iago Falque.... he came on with fresh legs yet for both the goals, he was nowhere near the guy out wide (fullback ?) who had the time and space to put in dangerous crosses.... if Falque was there to harrie him and cut down the angle for the crosses the quality of cross would have been poor.... where the hell was Falque on both occasions ?

The Tailor. Your attitude is the reason England will never win a world cup. AVB is trying to educate the players on tactics and more complex positional/technical aspects of football. Spanish and German players are asked to make mental assessment on the pitch, and make appropriate decisions. Footballers aren't stupid, they have just been allowed to be lazy when it comes to learning about the game.

thanks t.h.f chris.....yes i was aware he was no great goalscorer...thought he might have got one though !!..lol He entertained with his rants on the pitch and did cover the ground well.....but that's about it. I'm sure he has got a decent smile and laugh....like to see it more though.

Shattered at yesterday's result......how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.We do this so often it has beome a habit and is so depressing.Man U never do this as yesterday shows...they always fight to the very last second and have consequently already won the Prem and its only the beginnng of December.We have to somehow instil a stronger detemination and concentration to see games out.yesterday totally ruined my 67th birthday hen we had three poits in the bag!

yiddyboy, When an ENIC Hotspur fan tells you to go and support Chelsea you just know you have the hit the nail on head! But seriously yiddyboy, why do you reckon poor little Portsmouth have reached 2 FA Cup finals in the past 5 years, (winning 1) whilst Sir Sugar and his apprentice Danny Boy have failed to reach a single FA Cup final in 21 years? Can you answer this very simple question, without saying something silly, like go support another team?

neymar,great read and right in what you say.only one proplem for me is footballers win the supply of food{money} win or lose.everton was there cause.fans really dont matter to these lucky in life humans.every one of them should be sick and not training today after that showing but o know they have to turn in or lose days pay of £10000.

The reasons why we can't win the league are legion, perhaps the lingering saga of the new stadium, the reasons for it, and the main perpetrators involved personify this, but what is more relevent is our inability to be "the best of the rest" consistently. One of the man reasons for this is our lack of fortitude, fighting quality, and simple dour resistance and refusal to be beaten. That fiasco yesterday, and in other games this season when we have squandered winning positions, have been typical examples of our inability to see out games, to battle, scrap and yes if necessary kick our way through the closing stages, and preserve winning positions. There are many occasions when we should forget the "pretty football" and "the Spurs way" for which we are righly famous, and revert to scrapping, and battling. Our general defensive performances are not good enough, as shown be our goals conceded total, and our clean sheet stats, both of which would put us in the bottom half of the PL table. We are in dire need of a leader, a warrior, a battler to galvanise our back four, to organise and kick arse to sort things out.

82spursdeut we could always sign VDV and have him kick the ball into the first def again? I dont know many teams that wait for a corner to TACTICALY counter attack...

I know that it was a throw away comment about winning the league, but there is a pattern. Since the bulk of the nineties, the title winners are either teams with long standing managers or teams with sugar daddies. We are neither. But the important thing is that no team has come from nowhere and won the league in years. You must be there or thereabouts for a few seasons, then pounce. The good news is that since Jol, the Ramos trophy and the Harry years, the right direction is there. I am not convinced about the AVB appointment, and have been disappointed with his performance thus far....YET for some reason we are fourth.... Have we created a culture of finishing top four? Arsenal have been a shadow of themselves for a few years, yet still finish highly - due to a culture of top four. Even Man U can look average sometimes yet finish top two. Can we keep it up? Well, we need Avb to learn how to use subs properly. Even if Lennon appears to be ineffective, he certainly occupying someone. Take him off when losing, and you are risking nothing. When winning, you risk your lead, and sometimes the game as we saw yesterday. Despite how many goals as Defoe has scored, he is expensive to the team ethic. Defoe should be the first man subbed if we are winning. We need to develop a way of playing when under the cosh. At present, we roll over and die....and forget how to play football. A good side uses the ball to relieve pressure. We do not.

yes Caulker should have left the ball for lloris...hopefully he will next time! But Vertonghens header was shocking...he's a very good player but needs to cut out the mistakes- the sooner we get a settled back 4 the better...

Players make mistakes all the time, some have consequences some don't. It is completely unfair to pillory any player for his bad luck. It is a team game, including the manager and he picks the team to play. The mental aspects are his responsibility too, engendering confidence and mutual trust, which is usually the difference between winning and losing when skills are fairly equally matched. For the first time yesterday I saw AVB make a thinking substitution. He wanted to take off Moussa who was tiring but instead of the obvious straight swop with Thud, he first took off Lennon to give Tom time to slot in and then brought on Siggy for Moussa. Did this apparent negative move change the team mindset even though it wasn't intended? Fine margins eh?

One of our problems under succesive managers is that when setting the criteria for signing players we seem to consider technical playing ability, silky skills, and to fill gaps in the squad, but it appears hardly ever considering their mentality, and their ability to cope in the caldron of the PL. Often we sign players (often from Europe) who lack the battling mentality, and physcal prowess required in England, where every successful club has a general, a warrior, a battler in their engine room. Where is our John Terry, Nemenjar Vidic, Vincent Company. We are in the same position as the current Arsenal team, "too many indians, no chiefs", the nearest we have is Michael Dawson, but unfortunately he hs the attitude but lacks basic ability. Any future sigings shoul be based not only on silky footballing sklls, but also on a "must win", "we will not get beaten" mentality, both are equally important. I maintain that yestrday's result ould not have happened to any other leading PL team, we are ust incredibly brittle wen the heat comes on.

shedboy2 I dont follow any religion yet even person with the slightest knowledge of how diff the PL is and the massive scrutiny from the media and pathetic idiots like yourself that AVB is doing just fine mate... you can dig yourself a hole and bury ur head in it if u like. Us AVB fans are living well above ground and you are welcome anytime...

Oh wait we lost and now it's smash AVB time... sorry to ruin the party...

So when Harry had VDV taking every FK and corner for 2 seasons u were happy 82spurs?

siggy's shot was poor.............it should have been on target...not touching the top of the bar. When he approached to hit it...i thought he gonna score here. But instead...........he clips the top of the bar, never looked like going in...never made their goalie work. That said......he is young and has potential and is useful squad member.

A few articles ago, Scotty was the subject of discussion. Well it may well be that Sandro is fantastic but who else would you like to be in your team or to bring on to rally the troops? We missed him last year when he got knackered and this year too.

vdv..is history...mix 26..................i'm talking how we can maximise our squad now. Cos'...i want spurs to win win win now.....cos' we have a talented squad. In swinging corners....are generally better at scoring a goal at a corner.....utilise our big guns. Speed for defensive cover.

TonyR, its difficult. Who knows re.substitutions? I don't. You don't. Was Lennon injured, tiring? Siggy did well when he came on and almost scored didn't he? We left the 2 Defoe/Ade up top until right near the end which was a positive no? He has taken Defoe off on the hour in the past and been criticised for that too!? Hudd for the absolutely finished Dembele seemed to make sense? So so many variables. You could go on and on debating these details. For every substitution we can in hindsight criticise we can go back and find one that worked out. Main thing is we are doing very well, joint 4th with a good run of games to come and competing this year for trophies with a Euro tour in the Spring. Things aren't that bad are they.

Mix - well for me personally I do not change my tune win, lose or draw (well we do not draw do we?). Points, position wise AVB is achieving what is expected....however I do not believe that we are performing at a level that can maintain it. A team that just wins and loses has something fundamentally suspect.

Love Totty - Agree mate, Parker would have been great for this game if he was available. Some of the jokers commenting on that article about him were so off the mark its unreal.

SRV - I am not saying things are bad. I just feel that they are suspect. When we win, it is often fortuitous. We take lead via deflected goal in game that we did not deserve to win. People come away demeaning defensive lapses, but in reality Everton shaded it. We did not perform well enough. Vs Liverpool, we were lucky to win that too. Our second halves are commonly poor. We constantly play Gallas?!?!? Defoe's scoring is masking problems in final third. I am moaning purely because I feel that we are good enough to be fourth on merit, and therefore stay there. At present I have doubts.

Shedboy, go on, be true to yourself and admit it, you would love AVB to fail so you can say I told you so. Aint gone happen mate, he will succeed. COYS

Let's get behnd AVB. I have been very critical of him but I am beginning to change my opinion. He has pcked a strong team in the Europa League and it hasn't adversely affected our fitness in the following Sunday game, which goes against the modern convention (it really all is in the mind). I do think he can be a bit negative with his substitutions - when we are defending a lead, we always need an outlet - but I think he is learning. It is absolutely vital that AVB is supported in the transfer market, not necassarily with the mega bucks super stars but with the young hungry players that were supposed to be part of the new era. Mourinho said the first thing he looked at when signing playes was their mentality.This means Daniel Levy not waiting until the end of the month to start dealing and not putting in insulting offers for players we have no chance of signing.

Ill give u that one Tony yes :). Like I said AVB is doing just fine yet we should acknowledge that by achieving "just fine" is a really good indicator considering the difficulty of our circumstances. No man is perfect but there are no as many humble men around and I get the sense AVB will be a legend one day at Spurs or elsewhere ...

I was gutted yesterday, but the fact remains that we were a couple of minutes away from a well controlled performance and a very good result. Altho I can see the reasoning in protecting the lead and the players (Dembele recently injured) by the substitutions, I do wonder if the removal of Lennon, who'd been doing a lot of unsung work tracking back and taking Peanut out of the game, allowed him and Jelovic (?) to coast in at the back post. Walker seems to need that extra protection around the box, and when that was removed he Gallas had their same problems again. Shame about the Caulker mix up too. It should be remembered this is a very young team at the back, and altho we looked a bit rocky at times, it only looked like panic stations at the last moment. I think 1-1 would have been a fair result.

IY- I'll be true to myself...and say I hope he succeeds because he seems a decent, intelligent man. As long as he has the squad's support we have a chance. Do I think he's an amazing manager - no i don't, do I think he has some great tactical knowledge? no more than other managers....can he buy a player and build a team, I like everyone else really have no idea...as for wanting to say I told you so...I was shouting to the roof tops in 2003 that the gov't were sinking us into a black hole only to be told that more intelligent influencial people knew what they were doing...saying i told you so really doesn't have any satisfaction...

we can't win the league because we sell our best players (sometimes to the teams above us!) and don't replace them with equal or better quality...

Shedboy, the great thing is we have somehow got hold of a manager who was the most sought after young manager in the world 12 months ago. And not only that he is highly highly motivated to be successful with us. He is 5 years ahead of where Jose Mourinho was at his age! FIVE years! I personally never understood the negativity towards him although that is thankfully on the wane. Yes he is still inexperienced but he has limitless potential. If all the fans really get behind him the next few years could be something special. Lets not hound him out in a few months over a few gutter-press perceived weaknesses.

True SB2, even under ENIC we have brought in some really excellent players...without the hyper-inflation nonsense, but retention is the key. New stadium, regular CL qualification, global commercial appeal, tradition - all these things in time are the building blocks to the virtuous circle.

the reasons I really like AVB - he utilises the whole squad, treats all the players with respect and operates a meritocracy where he has also brought through younger talent like caulker and carroll. big improvement all round. he actually works on tactics, prepares the team for who they are actually going to play next, works on set pieces etc, also a big improvement from harry. perhaps most importantly players are actually clearly improving under AVB, it is obvious that he analyses weaknesses and works with individuals to improve on them. Defoe is a better player now than at any point in his career to date. He is still way too selfish but his overall game has improved in a way I never thought possible. Lennon, dawson, sandro, caulker have all improved. AVB puts in the work where Harry never did, it will pay off if he is given time

Modric never lost us the game yesterday, neither did ENIC or Levy or the new stadium, giving the phucking ball away lost us the 3pts, you know that thing you have to keep hold of when you have it.

so many late goals are scored in football, its the nature of the game that the losing team will push everything forward as time runs out. the problem for us is that now we have developed a pattern of conceding so the players will worry about it more and it creates a self perpetuating cycle. it is not easy to fix and it takes years of winning to develop the kind of mentality that united have. the mental strength comes from results more than the other way around. I think that AVB will work on the individual errors that led to each goal etc, and the return of dawson, kaboul, parker and benny will do a lot to shore up the defence and hopefully we will see fewer capitulations in the second half of the season.

Jod, who said anything about us winning the title? I must have missed that one, or was it Harry the Pikey? I must say I want to give AVB the time and chance but he like a lot of managers make some strange decisions. I really didn't see any reason to make the subs he made yesterday and whenever you take off two forward thinking players for two less forward thinking players (less lesser players) you are very likely to invite the opposition on even more and the risk is you concede late on. In this aspect of management he appears to be worse than others who make the same mistake. He needs to re-think this as it has now costs us around 9 points this season thus far.

Guernman, if we are constantly working on tactics, something is going wrong. In terms of goals conceded we have conceded 25, if you scan the PL table only Fulham (13th), Southampton (15th), Wigan (17th), Readig (19th), and QPR (20th) have conceded more and we are also well down the league re. clean sheets. Together with these stats there is the fact that we concede regularly in the last 10 minutes (currently 8 points lost). If this is meticulous tactical preparation, selection, and substitutions, perhaps we shouldn't bother, and just trust to luck. I still say that AVB' complete lack of playing experiance hampers his judgement, gives him less situations to draw on. I know it has worked for Wenger an Mourinho, but they are the exceptions to prove the rule.

happy for this discussion Jod. My last post yesterday after the loss was said: someone posted 'if the prem league games lasted 80 minutes we would be in 1st position' what can we do to change losing points in the last 10 minutes of a game. Some say get in new players or will be okay when BAE and Kaboul comes back,some say play the high line. I think the prem game has changed in the last few seasons, it has got faster and more end to end and a lot more goals per game and to hold on to a 1 nil lead is almost impossible. 14 of the last 77 prem league games have been 1-0 or 0-1.

Rob-EFC, you need a new stadium way more than us. From where I was in the Bullens Stand I had two sodding great pillars in the way. Worse than having to listen to all that Scouse talk. :) Has to be said though, there was more movement from the pillars than Defoe.

Rob-EFC, how nice to have a supporter of another club to come on this site to make sensible, level headed posts! Top man, hope Everton do well, settle for 4th behind us?

jonathan1, I am really warming to you. And sorry again for yesterday's unnecessary ouburst, as I said it was the anger in me after we threw away the 3 points. COYS

Ok, all together now "YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARRRRRE, NEGATIVE AVB HATERS, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!

fact is we missed bale so much yesterday, I couldn't count the number of times our players looked to the left only to see noone there. 442 requires width for me and we just didn't have it yesterday. adebayor, bale, dembele and defoe all had poor games so to nearly win was an astounding feat!

We just played Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool, West Ham, Fulham and Everton and are still in joint 4th place. After those fixtures, many (ie Frank) expected us to be mid table, but we arent, so the goal posts are moved yet again and the new argument is that we have lost too many points (8) and should be 2nd? 3rd? So AVB is being criticised for not being top 2 with this injury ravaged squad, which is imo inferior to last season? harsh!

ah yes guyver I'd forgotten all the morons droning on about how we'd finish mid table this season under AVB. they've gone rather quiet haven't they?

Well said Guyver - Some of the delude fans just like to argue and pick fault. There are even some that seem to think anything other than a win is failure. Off topic but are we all impressed with the instant turnaround at Q-P-Argh, argh, argh, argh argh???

Guyver - the squad is different to last year, worse in some areas better in others, but still more than capable of 4th given the state of rivals. In fact it is only the unexpected poor results of them that has kept us in it so far. You might call that a negative view, I see it as objective. 4th is the realistic target and the one to be judged against.

Italian Yiddo, I knew you'd see the light. I've made enough over the top posts myself straight after games! We have to keep calm and believe we are on the right track. We have a young progressve manager who needs time and support (are you listening Daniel Levy). Give AVB what he wants in January and we will be on our way.

Italian, I am not sure he is rotating any more than harry? I guess there's some stat out there which would answer the question. I am all for AVB but equally all for him learning from mistakes, which he has done to a degree such as Naughton at left back is a risk. You might well be right in the fact this game was a toughie for Townsend, I just love players who have the capacity to drive the oppo back...it's a weakness of mine. Was a frustrating day/game.

LOVE this thread, everyone's posting quality comments, VitalSpurs is back!!!

Yiddyboy, how can you possibly liken anything I say, do, or believe in, to Messrs Lewis and Levy and the way they operate (or more accurately fail to operate) at THFC. I can't understand how you make the link and I find it offensive. I have gone though my life with a series of ethics, values, honesty and integrity totally foreign to those two persons (I nearly said gentlemen), and I dont wish to be associatted with either under any circumstances. I have even paid my taxes as well, rather than buggering off to the Bahamas out of the way.

So was I Frank, just, & so I know a lot about the great Bill Nicholson mate. As for AVB, his lack of playing experience is irrelevant to a greater degree, it would've been useful of course. But as we know, an awful lot of really great players are unable to coach to a decent level, not many have consistently challenged for or won honours, so its not that great an advantage. Some of the really best managers have been average players.

As for AVB's time at the Chavs, everyone seems to have forgotten he was tasked with overhauling an aging squad. When he tried to meet that brief, he suffered a revolt by the players he was tasked with replacing & Abramovich caved in rather than back the guy he appointed.

You ask how we know wjhether AVB can build his own team, well we know as much as we did when Bill came in don't we? Nobody could have forseen how great he was going to be. AVB will probably never be another Billy Nick, but unless he's given time, resources & our support, he can't hope to get anywhere near those achievements, no one can & thats my beef. No one seems to want to give the guy a chance, anybody with an agenda seems determined to get him sacked. That ginger tw@ on TS is banging on about him AGAIN today with yet another dopey poll. I just wish they'd give it a rest.

And that's enough for them to get a kicking then is it Raging? I hope all those who have a go at our manager & players are all 100% perfect at their jobs for 100% of the time, if not, they're hypocrites.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Otherwise, shut the phuck up!

OyVeh Maria, did you actually see the match yesterday? I thought the team done ok, very, very close to doing very well. How many teams done a lot better there? Read Rob-EFC post on the match thread.

You're getting a little hysterical Spuds. No-one should expect perfection or even judge capability on individual games. The points total is all that will matter ultimately when judgement time comes.

Guyver - I consider Dempsey, Dembele, Vertonghan, Caulker, Lloris, Naughton and Siggurdson rather good additions to the squad. Much as I loved VDV he was off the pitch more often than on it. Modders is unquestionably missed and injuries to Parker, Kaboul and BAE are unfortunate but our rivals have had their problems too.

OyVeh,speak for yourself. I went up to Goodison, left home at 9am and got home at 10pm, at least £100 worse off, gutted about the last two goals of course, but not moaning about AVB or the team performance. It was not a great game,but a decent game and a draw might have been the fair result. I also went to several away games at the end of last season, a stronger team "managed" by your mate Harry and his two sidekick jokers, and I paid good money to watch absolute rubbish performances (remember Villa at the end of last season).And then had to listen to Redknapp's crap afterwards.

This is the best debate we've had on VS in ages. Everyone is entitled to theirs opinion and I agree with a lot of what OyVeh Maria says but I do think AVB realises where we are going wrong and he is intelligent enough to change things. The January transfer window will reveal a lot about AVB's plans and whether Daniel Levy will support him. If we end up with the usual last minute trolly dash we have no chance of progressing.

matt ....I'll give you that but yesterday was not our finest hour but we were still 1-0 up with only injury time to go ffs......and yes I remember the Villa result all too well we were down to 10 men and we drew 1-1...we were'nt 1 -0 up with just injury time to go were we? I wish we had been cos we would have closed that game out

It comes down to the same attitude we have had for a while under different coaches and we cannot finish these games out. We don't have that never say never attitude. We have had different players and different coaches and none of them have been able to change this mentality it seems. Do you really think I care if AVB/Mourinho/Pep/HR or any other coach would be here and they had lost that game I wouldn't be upset? I don't care if AVB is coach I have accepted that but to concede 10 goals in the final 10 minutes and score none in 16 rounds of PL matches is nothing acceptable.

Raging, you said last season that if we lost Modric we would descend to mid-table.So why is it AVB's fault now.

Raging, your dislike for AVB is clouding your judgement. Give him a chance, when he has more fit players available and a chance to bring him some new aces in January (Daniel Levy permitting) watch us go. You simply have to give any new manager some time. I'd like to know what you said after the West Ham game. Surely not something positive!!

"What really scares people is that the Spurs manager might be successful with his idiosyncratic and more scientific approach."

We mock what we don’t understand, which is why Spurs boss Andre Villas-Boas is still to win over a hostile media and sceptical supporters.

Spurs supporters are naturally pessimistic as we've had more false dawns than a coachload of trannies. We are hamstrung by our dictum that we must win in style, and, unfortunately, post Mackay, (yes, Dave) we don't have enough of his robustness and sheer will-to-win to ally to our flair and thus produce a team capable of consistency and the title, while still modeled on Spurs' principles. Given the intervening 50 odd years, we do get a little testy on the subject of winning the league, as I for one have heard it all before. A more interesting question is whether we would eschew our style for a little more, dare I say it, Woolwich pragmatism?

94 miles to travel home and needing petrol !!! - i've just had the most amazing journey home, filling my car up at the new spurs service station, i was almost home and dry, only for my car to stop and run out of petrol after 80 miles.

FACT OF THE DAY: If all premier league games had finished on 80 minutes this season Spurs would be top of the league. Surely ++this stat just disproves the article. All we have to do is learn how to do it from 80 minutes onwards without getting arrogant and we are top. Just a few minor tweaks in the squad mentality from, "This is as good as it gets". To, "We can win the league". I don't think it will take him long, because the players are obviously listening to him to have improved, so when he addresses that fully it will be sorted.

Thfc1882, you are so right. If ENIC and Levy do not back AVB then the whole project becomes pointless. i do not expect Levy to spend mega bucks. But I do expect him to pursue realistic targets that I am sure AVB has identified rather than put in phoney bids for players we have no chance of getting only to succumb to the usual last minute panic buys.

jacobslad, because AVB is giving chances to all the squad players, and Carroll didn't do too well against Panathinaikos.

thfc Lennon also looked exhausted so thats why he came off.

thfc Lennon had a poor game and was ineffective for most of the game He was on several occasions in the second half reduced to walking at times. I dont understand why a manager should not substitute a player having a poor match, it makes sense to me.

Should have got berbs back.His 2 years at the lane up there with the best.

JOD Im sorry but you're edging on the mental side... 88 seconds is what defied our game, all kicked off by an RARE error by a young CB who has an amazing future ahead of him. Caulker panicked, had he not then Lloris would've gathered & nullified the pressure & countered. Everton's tails WOULDN'T of been up & we'd of sen out a 1-0 away victory. However due to that ONE mistake, it shook us, our defence panicked, we lost.

I applaud AVB & his tactics had been spot on, well until he removed Lennon instead of JD & moved Dembele to the right. That was the only real mistake, but had Siggy's shot gone in it would've been 2-0 & Everton would've hid... A lot of what if's but ALL very true, so to bemoan AVB & our lack of winning mentality is harsh & untrue. As Gary Neville pointed out on TV tonight, we've conceded 9 goals & blown 8 pts in the final 10 mins of games this season. Now had we been more stable (we would've been had BAE, Kaboul & Parker were fit, therefore allowed the new signings to settle better) we'd be sitting 2nd in the League, YES thats right SECOND ! Its just more concentration in the final 15mins, its NOT rocket science, just better individual discipline for those on the pitch in the final 15mins. Deal with that & 3rd WILL be the MINIMUM we achieve this season, do that then next season we WILL compete for the Title.

IAVBIT ILIT COYS

I believe that we CAN win the league in the coming years. We can do it. COYS!!

Matt and Jonathan, my only argument here is that we shouldn't be conceding 10 goals in the final 10 minutes of a game over 16 matches! I don't care if Pep or Mourinho were the coach nor if it was Harry. This is something that is very disturbing and it's something that is costing us a lot of points.

We as fans have the right to criticize things that are blatantly obvious. Why are we pessimistic as fans? Because these are things that constantly seem to be happening and the team is rolling over and not fighting it out and it is the coaches responsibility to take care of these issues! I'm only critical cause I want the best out of this team and I feel that the team doesn't fight for 90 minutes. Everton beat us simply because they put their heart out there even when they didn't look to get anything out of it. We tuck our tail between our legs and simply seem to give up when things don't go according to plan and this needs to change. If SAF lost a game in this manner can you imagine that locker room after? I can tell you a lot of players would be riding the bench next game because of this. I understand we may not have the same depth in the team but some players need to understand if you don't lay your heart on the field you will be riding the bench for someone who will!

Or you prefer to keep them private. whats that saying? Haters will broadcast your failure, but whisper your success..

Yes a premiership season is "38" games and if AVB lose's a 13pt lead over Arsenal, doesnt win a single away game in 2013 all while trying to secure the Portuguese national team job, im sure he'll receive a lot more hate than he is now. But as it stand's, he's doing well with a squad I know you don't rate as highly as last season.

and for the positives-We can still finish 3rd with bluescums and redscum struggling.Bale,Scotty & BAE available for next game,AVB winning over many fans,Dempsey proving his worth,Jan transfer market opening & easy run of games ahead.Top4 sud be cemented!!

As for the poll...what numpties have voted? The defence did a really great job under the cosh. The midfield and attack were non existent, apart from Sandro, and Caulker together with Gallas were excellent. Of course there is huge bias here and people struggle with reality but any neutral could not but notice how well the defence played overall. I thought that until the last few minutes this was the best TEAM performance of the season. Against a fit, strong, fighting, energetic, spirited attacking ambitious team we held out well. In the end we were just beaten by our failing all season...which has not been addressed by the coaching staff/manager...dropping too deep. People criticise the high line but that is a strength. When we abandon that then we ask for trouble, and get it in almost every game

Most of these late goals we concede is down to our forwards in ability to hold up the ball and buy us some time, I thought Ade had one of his worst games ever for us on Sunday. Nothing he did was of any use, he actually looked a worse target man ten Defoe did?? We do need a Rooney or tevez type player upfront, someone that Defenders have to half murder to get the Ball off. Keeping possession stops the other teams scoring, a good forward can buy us time forcing fouls from CBs marking them. This is also the key to Braking up opposing teams momentum. Our problems are our forwards concede the ball far too easily to defenders so our defence is always on the Back foot when we are trying to run down the final minutes in Games. COYS

Oh and is it coincidence that Big C only makes one post when he is someone who is normally full of opinion and at the same time Ragingspur turns up with quite a few posts? Hmmm!!

yiddyboy - Funny you say that, i always thought Big C and Horny Helen were one in the same ha. Strange... :-)

SpursOne2- yeah it was a kick in the knackers but that's football...imagine how happy we'd all have been the other way round!! It was a close game decided by a couple of mistakes and playing an old CB....

pelebro -Who's is your ideal sugar daddy owner? Look at Chelsea, do you really want Spurs to be run like them? Look at City, is that really the answer? Yes, we were title contenders but like the idiots that we all are that never materialized and we sank quicker than the Titanic. Oh and we better ball players in VdV and Modric, why did we sink? Because Levy didn't spend £50m in January, get real man. Levy is a business man, Spurs is a business NOT a toy!

pelebro - The new training facility is here and the stadium is in place to be built. They have provided us with that. We can argue about the time it has taken, but the fact is you have to take them off your list above. Its great news for everyone, players staff and fans alike. Plus all the development down here in the area. I'm pretty much with you on applying pressure for Trophys. And i never like the amount of managers we have gone through instead of setting up for stability. But credit where its due there fella. Plus, you want to even more change from the top down when we have already had major change. So how many more years will that add on? I think this 'new era' we are trying to follow we need to stick with for now. Levy i hope provides us more players in Jan/Summer if he means what he said about taking us onwards. If we go through the motions and continue to improve, get more experience then we may be in a better position to invest...or you might get your wish, you never know

lordjohnny - Best bet is to turn up at games and chant 'ENIC OUT'. Maybe 36,000 non flat cap surfers as you put it, will join in eh?

:-)

RagingSpurs argument that no matter changing teams, changing coaches etc., we don't have that fight-tooth-and-nail mentality to close out games. Sorry, but most teams with the exception of Man U EITHER play beautiful, fast-paced football like us, OR play efficient, crunching, ugly but tenacious football. It's very VERY difficult to have both. In fact most "flair" players, the Thierry Henry's, the Berbatov's, they are highly skilled but not the bulldogs that battle for every scrap. We have a lot of skilled players and a couple of bulldog beasts in Parker and Sandro, and we have to maintain that number of skilled flair players to sustain our brand of exciting football. BUT, with injuries, we're then susceptible to late tiredness and lapses in concentration.

yiddyboy, you write "Would you prefer own club to be run like a toy to a spoilt brat?" Have you not noticed yiddyboy, that we already have our very own spoilt little brat running our football club, named Daniel Levy. Yes big Joe Lewis has given 'Sir Sugar daddy's' apprentice his very own personal football club to play with. Real life Fantasy Football! Only problem is Danny boy is not very good at all at Fantasy Football, with the worst trophy per season percentage of any THFC chairman in over half a century. But that doesn't bother our Danny Boy in the slightest. He will be back playing fantasy football with our club in the January window, buying and selling and hiring and firing, and knocking down buildings in the local Tottenham area, in preparation for Big Joe to sale up, when price is right... And then Big Joe will buy his spoilt little brat Danny Boy, his next little corporate play thing...

yiddyboy, you write, Unfortunately pelebro and co, you are all from the Abramovich school of thinking..ie "Instant success" Is it not your hero Danny boy who demands instant success from his coaches? I mean he has already got himself through 8 coaches in 13 seasons. Is it not therefore Levy who is from the Abramovich school of thinking, with his nasty backing stabbing style of hiring and firing coaches? Only our Danny boy has an empty trophy cabinet, whilst the nasty Russian keeps his full! As for your claims that real Tottenham fans like myself demand instant success from our owners. Well it's been 13 seasons and counting yiddyboy... Is that "totally afar from reality" as you put it. Have the 13 years not happened? Was it all just a dream, a kind of surreal ENIC nightmare??? It's time to wake up my yids... ENIC OUT!