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Why We Can't Win The League

Sorry if the title upsets anyone but the Everton game encapsulated for me all that is wrong with 'The Tottenham Way', why it doesn't win you titles.

Having taken the lead with a slightly lucky goal we had fifteen minutes to close down the game and play out to full time. A team capable of winning the title would have ground out the win, we couldn't. Everton were the ones who kept going, not just equalising in the dying minutes but winning the game.

Its not the first points we have dropped from a winning position this season and it won't be the last. We can talk all we like about the quality of players, but as Moyes men showed its also about the attitude of the team. If you don't have the concentration, determination and discipline then the skill counts for nothing.

For as long as I can remember we have folded when the going got tough, there is a mental strength that has just never been there. Maybe its because of our history, the double side was so good they could win on skill alone, that won't happen again. But unless and until we develop the kind of collective mental strength that Ferguson's sides have always shown we will never be able to actually win league competitions, I don't care who we sign.

Written by jod




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The journalist

Writer: jod Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Monday December 10 2012

Time: 8:32AM

Your Comments

Get AVB the "right" players and you'll be writing a different article JOD. He's a winning-focused Manager but currently (honestly) only has a top5/6 squad, not even enough for top4 (yet)....*just saying
@Mq
Excellent performance yesterday. AVB's tactics were spot-on, completely nullified all their normal attacking threats, Everton fans were streaming for the exit with the time ticking down to 90 minutes on the clock. So so close to being the perfect away performance at a ground that NOBODY gets any joy. So heart-breaking to lose 2 goals in injury time! You can bet your life that AVB and the coaching staff will be analysing in great detail how we have conceded late on a number of occasions this season. We'll get there. Apart from the obvious heart-ache of the result i'm really happy with where we are going. We have a good run of 5 PL games now where we start favourites in all of them. Time to cement 4th?
StillRickyVilla
In some ways I agree with what you say, but I think yesterday can be put down to just one of those things. Although when I watched MOTD2 last night it really really *****ed me off when I heard Lloris shout for the ball before the first goal, only for Caulker to clear it straight to an Everton player. The truth of the matter is our players are a mixture of knackered and inexperienced. If you look at our back line they are playing every game - it's hard to maintain a level. There is no back up at all! Things will be a lot different when Parker, Kaboul and Assou-Ekotto are back. I really hope we see them return over the next six games. If we can get a minimum of 14 points from those games, our season will be nicely set up to push for 4th, and it will also put us in a healthy position when someone like Llorente or Moutinho look at the table before deciding whether to join!
Sebthespur
What I find most frustrating is the way AVB overcomplicates everything. He wants to show how clever he is and ends up blowing leads. Football is asimple game played by simple men I'm afraid and if you complicate it you confuse them. He needs to stop trying to be clever and we would pick up more points.
The Tailor
Good article Jod and I agree in parts. It is a mentality issue but I do believe AVB will be able to get it right but he will need different players. The problem we have is that our current squad does not have the mental fortitude to actually BELIEVE they can hold on to a one goal lead in the last 10 minutes. At the moment they actually expect to concede at the end of games. We need new players to come in and show those that remain that it is possible to close out games and hold on to wins. It is all about footballing intelligence. This is something I have spoken about in the past. Our current players do not have the footballing intelligence to make the right decisions at the right time when they are under pressure in games. It is not something you can teach players quickly or easily. In fact some players will never be able to achieve it. It has nothing to do with skill it is all about the mind. The great England Rugby Union side that won the world cup had a fantastic mantra that we should take on as a club. They said that in terms of physical attributes and playing abilty the top 5 or 6 sides in the world cup were all the same. The only difference was the extra 10% (what they called the 'top 10%') that is in each player's head. You need a winner's mentality but more importantly than that you have to BELIEVE you will win EVERY GAME and you must EXPECT to win every game. The key is to stop making losing goals and games acceptable and ensuring each player understands that they have a significant and equal part in the repsonsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. Not easy and will need the introduction of new minds more than new talent.
SpuriousLife
I do wonder how many players there are that really have that win at all costs mentality in todays game? It isnt just spurs that have this issue, but almost every side in the game
oxfordspur
It will take a bit of time for some players to get that 'know-how' to see out games the way more experienced players do. Lads like Caulker, Sandro, Walker, Lloris they are all young and are learning. Of course, the return of Parker, Kaboul and BAE naturally takes us up a level anyway, but the players out there yesterday will get there. Just takes a bit of time. As for the article, AVB has a definite winners mentality, seen across all games, all competitions. Its the difference between someone who puts himself out there as a winning coach of 4 trophies including a Euro trophy and a League Title by the age of 35 and has not made one single excuse since arriving at the club (AVB) to someone who can't wait to get back into a relegation dog-fight so its a no-lose situation for him (Harry). Its comparing apples and pears and am so glad we took the path we did in the summer. I am certain we will get there if this manager and team is given patience and support.
StillRickyVilla
How do you work out we nullified their attacking threat, they kept cutting through us to cock it up. Gallas hooked the ball clear for instance after a poor cross and Lloris saved us. We were generally outplayed but the issue really is the change of tactics we adopt in the last 10 minutes. We play a high line but with 10 mins to go keep taking off attacking outlets and bring on defensive players. So far it has cost us 8 points (WBA, Norwich, Man City, Everton) and a League Cup place (Norwich) where we also conceded 2 in 5 minutes. He has learnt from his 4-2-3-1 start to play 4-1-4-1 when injuries permit and moved bale forward and back out wide. Do keep doing the same thing expecting different results is insanity - Albert Einstein. This tactic which results show isn't working needs changing. Yes we are not mentally strong enough but if you play a high line for 80 minutes why then do you decide to ditch that plan and just all go and defend in your box? If you take off your outlets the ball will just keep coming back more often. AVB keeps shooting us in the foot with his blackboard (work in theory) tactics.
Med1
SRV I agree with everything you say. Our man has all the right qualities, but can I ask your opinion on what happens if we finish 5th or lower?
Sebthespur
look the fact is we got to 90 minutes without conceding at one of the toughest away grounds in the league. We so nearly stole the win from under their noses and I think we should be proud of that. If Sigurdssons crossbar shot had gone in it would have been a totally different story. Disapointing that we didn't at least hold on for a point, but hey-ho, thats football and we were up against a very good, very motivated and determined side.
wiltshirespur
are we anything other than delusional to be expecting us to win the league at this time anyway? I feel that 3rd/4th may be achievable, but equally we could still end up in 6/7th place, such is the openess of the league
oxfordspur
med1 we also did the same thing against united. were you complaining then? Yes we need to improve on that, but its not as though its an AVB-only problem, this has happened to Spurs for as long as I can remember.
wiltshirespur
To win any title you need a general, whether its the manager, CB, GK or CM. I cant remember the last time Spurs had that sort of influencial figure playing for them, Parker leads by example, King led by example. who is there to shout at the players when there not pulling there weight? Both of those goals could have been prevented yesterday. The first goal conceded everybody was snatching at a clearance like 17 year debutant, and why are sitting so deep in every game? We need a player who is prepared to crack skulls in the dressing room when things get tough.
coys1717
win the league ??? we will never win the league, nor any premier team bar the Manchesters and chelsea. That is the premier league chaps, it keeps the sucessful at the top due to the champions league money and the rest will never have any chance. This is why 4th/5th is the best we will probably ever do. Liverpool are the same and everton, I am well aware none of us will ever win the title in my lifetime. Welcome to modern day football everybody !!
jimmy-yid
Hey Seb, i always said i would give the manager AT LEAST a year before any sort of judgement can be made (If its proven that the manager has all the right qualities - which i find it difficult to see that he hasn't - then i would give them at least 3-5 years). This is particularly right in this instance given the loss of our best players in the summer, the huge player change-over, the injuries, the change of system etc. However, i am becoming increasingly impressed with AVB as each week goes by. If i feel that the manager has all the right qualities and is giving it 100% in all competitions and loves the club and the fans and wants to build things for the long-term, then I am happy. What more can he do? No body can say whether we will finish 4th or not. There are such a myriad of different factors, internal and external, many of which are not under the manager's control. But i'm sure this season AVB will get us on a great run at 4th AND a great run at the UEFA Cup and FA Cup. What more can you ask for?
StillRickyVilla
The reason why we can't win a title has only to do with the personal traits of the players we use last decades. When we buy a player we don't pay attention if the said player, next to other important skills like physical strength and pace and appropriate ball technique, has also the two distinguishing characteristics or qualities of personal nature that make the difference on having a winning team: intelligence and winner's character. Profoundly those responsible for rating the players to be bought or to be promoted to the first team from the youth, didn't know that. There is no other explanation. Even the world's best manager would fail if he had to work with players who lack those elements. If we want to improve, we need an intelligent, experienced and with a thorough scientific football knowledge General or Football Director to run for the club all issues concerning the game of football and, teaming up with with the manager, to buy players who have the proper skills and traits. The chairman/owner would only set up the budgetary limitations and, eventually, participate in the price negotiations if he was good at that. This is the proper way to bring the club to the next level even in the frame of the current budget and salary limitations. It is all up to Levy and Co.
Ioan X
and im far from an avb fan but this isnt his fault either. We have suffered this mental weakness of conceding late for 30 years. Its pathetic.
jimmy-yid
I read a nice stat this morning that if all premier leage games had finshed at 80mins this season, Spurs would be 1st!
Sherer4
Sherer4 yes it was on MOTD last night. Games go on for 94-95 minutes though so we have to learn how to play until the end, surely this can we worked on in training. Not playing stupid europa matches for a few months should help with fitness and fatigue.
T.H.F.Chris
FACT OF THE DAY: If all premier league games had finished on 80 minutes this season Spurs would be top of the league. Says it all really doesn't it...
SanchezSpur
Yes it does.
Moscovite
Sherer4 - I saw that as well! really annoying stat... If only we could close games out.
rahn DMC
lol Sherer4...
SanchezSpur
I spose looking postivly if we are the leading premier league team for 85/86% you would realistically think that a few choice signings in the right areas would bump that up by a few percent.
coys1717
Sherer4, if games finished at 80 minutes then we would concede all our goals between 70 and 80 minutes. For me the winning mentality starts with the manager and works its way down to the players. It is also vital that the manager is supported by the board. When AVB came in I thought the plan was to look at young and hungry player. We signed Dempsey and Ade, one because he was all that was available when Levy tried his usual last minute do it on the cheap dealing and the other because he was cheap. They are both decent players but also both pushing 30 and clearly not AVB players. Unless AVB is supported by the board, we have no chance. The things that concern me most watching the games are the inability of the team to keep the ball and the panic that ensues when we are holding a narrow lead. I am sure AVB is working on this. I am desperate for him to do well and we must support him but he needs to change the mentality of the team very quickly otherwise the top four will become completely unacheivable. We have to keep faith in AVB but he must be supported by te board. COYS
jonathan01
No need to over analise why we are not seeing out games. Take a look at the top two and possibly top 3. There are always top top strikers ready to come off the bench, when required. I suspect avb's and freunds dourness transfers to the pitch...especially when he makes substitutions.......that said he does need the the right ammunition, to be able to make decent choices. TOP TOP STRIKER......MR.LEVY..." TO DARE IS TO DO"..."IT'S ALL ABOUT THE GLORY"........football is about goals and strikers !!!..lol We can win the title...and had we got that top top striker last jan' transfer window, we may have won the title last season.
82spursdebut
This is going to be a bit long but I hope some of you will persevere through to the end and maybe it will help you to overcome the paralysing feeling of dejection which one gets of losing winnable games like yesterday. A friend once explained an important investment concept to me and what he said made such a lot of sense that I decided to make it the focus point of my life. He basically said: If you have an investment you might be sitting on a goldmine but in the beginning (year 1-3) things move along slowly and for this reason your investment might not look like much at that early stage. But because your investment is geared exponentially, in later years the growth will absolutely explode through the ceiling. The trick is to know how to calculate the growth on your investment and then to stick with that investment until it matures into your target value at the end of the term. The problem with most investors is that they become impatient with the slow start and keep on changing their investments which means that they keep on starting over and over and unknowingly repeat the 3 year slow period. Chopping and changing investments is the curse that keeps poor investors poor. Sounds a bit like Spurs with the way we chop and change managers. We might get some short term gains but we lose out long term by not being able to guarantee everlasting success. For that reason AVB must stay for at least 3 seasons even though I donít like the man that much. I am living proof of the power of exponential growth because since I have been following my friendís advice I am experiencing riches in my personal life of unimaginable and infinite proportions. Some people will remember me on VS as I used to frequent this site on a daily basis about two years ago (a very big Pav supporter Ė he could come in handy now for the indifferent Ade Ė just joking!) and I used to live and breathe spurs and had very little time for anything else in my life, least of all boring stuff like investments, gearing and exponential growth. Although in my heart I still support The Mighty Spurs with the same intensity as before, the big change for me came in the way I think about life, goals and prosperity. I realised that spurs was an obsession with me to the extent that I could not prosper in life because when they won I was invincible and motivated but the very next week when they lost I was dejected, deflated, miserable and inconsolable. Spurs were like an addictive drug. When they won, I wanted more wins and when they lost I couldnít wait for the next game for them to win again and make me feel good again. The wins filled me with hope but they always had that uncanny knack to disappoint me when I wanted them to win the most. A bit like the Everton game yesterday. After my friend spoke to me I realised that I had absolutely no control over the club that I loved and followed with so much passion. Two years ago I too would have demanded instant gratification and success which would have meant the sacking of AVB because of his relatively poor start. But now I know that he needs time to put his methods, ideas and concepts in place. There is no such thing as everlasting instant success because instant success is exactly that with very little hope of being everlasting as proved over and over at the lane under both sugar and levy. Have a great day guys, got to go, investments to find and money to make!
neymar
we keep dropping these points because we change tactics.will we ever learn
topspur53
82spursdebut DID YOU JUST SAY STEFFEN FREUNDS DOURNESS!?!?!?!?!?!?! the nicest and most cheerful man in football is dour!?!?!?!?! wtf... his smile lightens up any room and motivates any player! all together now! I LOVE STEFFEN FREUND...
wiltshirespur
neymar.....methods..ideas...concepts...!!!!!...this is football !!!..it's a very simple game, hence the reason it is played everywhere !!...lol
82spursdebut
Conceding in the last minutes has nothing to do with the fitness of the players, it's all in the mentality of the players. Many mention this being a Spurs thing for the last 30 years or so, I also agree. However I believe AVB is the kind of manager to assess the detail of the problem and try and rectify it. I once read "to succeed you need to experience failure!" Also the article mentions 'A team capable of winning the title would have ground out the win' - Just like Man City did yesterday?? When I look at the Utd team sheet my first though is "Nothing special", however Sir Alex has installed this mentality that we need. With Utd's current squad with Steve Bruce or Harry as United Manager, I would say they would struggle to make top 4, they certainly wouldn't win the league!!!
yiddyboy
oh yeah......he talks lovely....never seen him laugh !!!..hardly gets out his comfy seat. rarely scored a goal for spurs. NOW..klinnsmann....he lightens the load. You can love him all you like...lol
82spursdebut
Neymar, unfortunately, the age of the internet has brought with it the age of instant gratification. In particular the over-analysis and nit-picking by fans (often with the benefit of hindsight) of every single aspect of the game is ridiculous. In reality it should be no more difficult than looking at the bigger picture, putting in place a proper long-term strategy, getting the right people in, and letting them build the club over 3, 5, 10, 20 years. That's the only way we can compete. Now over to you ENIC with the new stadium......
StillRickyVilla
didnt Citeh lose to a last-minute goal yesterday too.... they'll never win titles either I guess.
Viyyash-Ramosh
oh dear...viv'...your memory is a little lost !....don't worry i know that feeling too !!..lol....coffee helps..
82spursdebut
so far, Utd have lost to Everton and those 2 'small' clubs Norwich and Spurs (at Old Trafford).... won't win the league now then, will they........ Spurs had 9 outfield players who had a tough pressure-match midweek that they only looked comfy in during the last 15mins. Everton had the whole week to rest up and train for this match specifically. Spurs unsurprisingly looked tired and always less likely to win 1st and 2nd balls. Ironically, after the subs for fresh legs we looked the most comfortable during the whole game. We lost 2 goals in a minute after 89mins 55secs of the game; if that isnt a fluke for ANY team, I dont know what is
Viyyash-Ramosh
Why We Can't Win The League? Well of course we can the League, but unfortunately it won't happen whilst Daniel Levy is running our club on behalf of the ENIC corporation. It simply won't happen! The money is there, as we have not one but two billionaires on the THFC board, as well several other business partners in the cooperate world worth billions as well. Money is not the issue, because the owners of our club have money in abundance. Unfortunately the billionaires who own our club have decided not to invest their money to a sufficient level in THFC where the club can seriously compete for that title. It's that simple! So the title is not possible under ENIC with the finance they have made available to the clubs coaches... But what about cup tournaments? Well unfortunately we run into another major catch 22 there, because none of the 8 coaches employed by Daniel Levy have been given the freedom to express and create their OWN TEAMS. Players are bought and sold at the club without the permission or approval of the clubs coaches by Levy. That old classic expression "too many cooks spoils the broth" sums up exactly what I'm saying! We the fans have to seriously ask our selves how a tiny up and down the Leagues club like Portsmouth can reach not one, but two FA Cup finals in the last five years (winning 1) whilst THFC through the entire Sugar/ENIC mafia years, going right back to 1991 have failed to reach a single FA Cup final? Couldn't be anything to do with Sir Sugar and his apprentice Danny Boy, Could it???
pelebro
Crazy game is it not? Nothing to do with fatigue or mental tiredness. It was just poor decision making and perhaps a bit of the young man in Caulker who was IMO the man who caused our collapse yesterday. He is still young, we are still a young and new team. These mistakes are bound to happen. I was absolutely gutted with that result after what was a very good battle against a full strength tough team like Everton. The boys can be proud aft that defeat I would say. The only depressing thing to see was Ade who's first touch and self glory were lost in his own stupid head!!!!
Mix26
To me it is evident why, despite Dawson's great commitment to Spurs, AVB was prepared to release him - because his clearances are rarely effective. Instead injuries have enforced his retention; AVB has worked on Michael, and his clearances are improving. In the Everton game, we kept a clean sheet for 89 mins for a variety of reasons, but one was that we made clearances accurately to a number of different target players who took up positions to receive them. As we edged closer to winning, this discipline began to erode, and Caulker began the slide to defeat by ignoring Lloris' call and returning the ball to the opposition. He did the same thing against Wet Spam recently - two lapses, two goals. Hopefully just about now, AVB will be patiently explaining to Caulker what he did wrong, and things will continue to improve. Earlier in the game Caulker tended to err on the side of caution and clear to touch under pressure, and this is at least better than giving the ball away. It is not, however, as good having the presence, as Lloris generally does, to FIND the pass which will ease pressure rather than increase it. It is saddening the way we, the supporters, forget good habits just like the players, and as soon as things go wrong we return to pessimism. But we do NOT have a poor squad we have a good squad which, with hard work and familiarity will get better. We must discourage 'lumping', and play the Spurs way, to feet or into space. Get behind the team - this was an encouraging performance, several minutes short of a great victory. COYS!!
tommyharmer
Viyyash - you are right. You can debate the details forever. For every Everton game, there is a Liverpool or Man Utd where we held on. For every poor Gallas clearance there were 2 or 3 great goal-saving interventions. For every substitution that didn't work, there is a substitution that did work. We will always have our opinions with the benefit of hindsight. Arguing over the details is a mugs-game though. Better off supporting the manager and players in what they are trying to do. The rest is just football.
StillRickyVilla
pelebro'.....i'm starting to agree with you on enic / levy. I.e...i feel gutted that the new stadium completion date has been put back. The bricks should have been going down now........for the stadium to be ready for ...perhaps not next season but the season after.
82spursdebut
pelebro - you are deluded pal, you'd be far better off supporting Chelsea because they have a pumped so much money into their club and even won premierships, FA Cups and Champions Leagues. Would you like Spurs to be run more like them???
yiddyboy
82Spurs Freund never scored for us.
T.H.F.Chris
neymar, A good read mate!
pelebro
if anyone was to blame yesterday, it is Iago Falque.... he came on with fresh legs yet for both the goals, he was nowhere near the guy out wide (fullback ?) who had the time and space to put in dangerous crosses.... if Falque was there to harrie him and cut down the angle for the crosses the quality of cross would have been poor.... where the hell was Falque on both occasions ?
Viyyash-Ramosh
@ Pelebro - yes, Pompey won a piece of silver under 'Arry, but where are they now? That situation wasn't triumph, it was lunacy, and even then no more than a one-off. To compare what Levy has built at Spurs with the ramshackle pile of rusting junk that is Portsmouth FC is to enter the outer reaches of sanity.
tommyharmer
The Tailor. Your attitude is the reason England will never win a world cup. AVB is trying to educate the players on tactics and more complex positional/technical aspects of football. Spanish and German players are asked to make mental assessment on the pitch, and make appropriate decisions. Footballers aren't stupid, they have just been allowed to be lazy when it comes to learning about the game.
Tactically Challenge
Pelebro, 4 things need to happen for us to win the league. 1) We get the right manager in place and we stick with him for the long-term without any short-term knee-jerking 2) ENIC build the new stadium 3) The UEFA Fair Play Rules bite which effectively kill off Man City and Chelsea 4) Fergie retires and the new man phucks up United.
StillRickyVilla
thanks t.h.f chris.....yes i was aware he was no great goalscorer...thought he might have got one though !!..lol He entertained with his rants on the pitch and did cover the ground well.....but that's about it. I'm sure he has got a decent smile and laugh....like to see it more though.
82spursdebut
Oh and our 17 mins of play against Arsenal was due to the players being pumped up, because it sure wasn't down to 4-4-2. Ade and Defoe are not great together. We need to get back to 4-2-3-1 or even better, 4-3-3.
Tactically Challenge
Shattered at yesterday's result......how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.We do this so often it has beome a habit and is so depressing.Man U never do this as yesterday shows...they always fight to the very last second and have consequently already won the Prem and its only the beginnng of December.We have to somehow instil a stronger detemination and concentration to see games out.yesterday totally ruined my 67th birthday hen we had three poits in the bag!
wentworth
Consistency? Something we haven't got. And we keep making the worst types of substitutions i have ever seen. Unbelievable. Top 4? yes, Win the league? Not good enough yet. COYS.
SpursOne2
avb is no tactical whizzkid......he's now got walker taking our corner kicks !!! The fastest player in the prem', a defender.....he should be covering the rear guard at our corners. To prevent counter attacks from the opposition. His covering speed would allow...more of our players to get into attacking postions when we are in the opposition half. Surely, we have other wiser options to take corners.
82spursdebut
yiddyboy, When an ENIC Hotspur fan tells you to go and support Chelsea you just know you have the hit the nail on head! But seriously yiddyboy, why do you reckon poor little Portsmouth have reached 2 FA Cup finals in the past 5 years, (winning 1) whilst Sir Sugar and his apprentice Danny Boy have failed to reach a single FA Cup final in 21 years? Can you answer this very simple question, without saying something silly, like go support another team?
pelebro
neymar,great read and right in what you say.only one proplem for me is footballers win the supply of food{money} win or lose.everton was there cause.fans really dont matter to these lucky in life humans.every one of them should be sick and not training today after that showing but o know they have to turn in or lose days pay of £10000.
bazdog
result as completely sickened me!
bazdog
The reasons why we can't win the league are legion, perhaps the lingering saga of the new stadium, the reasons for it, and the main perpetrators involved personify this, but what is more relevent is our inability to be "the best of the rest" consistently. One of the man reasons for this is our lack of fortitude, fighting quality, and simple dour resistance and refusal to be beaten. That fiasco yesterday, and in other games this season when we have squandered winning positions, have been typical examples of our inability to see out games, to battle, scrap and yes if necessary kick our way through the closing stages, and preserve winning positions. There are many occasions when we should forget the "pretty football" and "the Spurs way" for which we are righly famous, and revert to scrapping, and battling. Our general defensive performances are not good enough, as shown be our goals conceded total, and our clean sheet stats, both of which would put us in the bottom half of the PL table. We are in dire need of a leader, a warrior, a battler to galvanise our back four, to organise and kick arse to sort things out.
Frank
StillRickyVilla, Those are 4 huge asks mate! Much simpler for this SUGAR/ENIC mafia mob to call it a day, sale up and bring in some owners with some real passion for the club we love... My god this club needs a change a the top! Then the new stadium will materialize and "my eyes have seen the glory" will return... ENIC OUT!!!
pelebro
82spursdeut we could always sign VDV and have him kick the ball into the first def again? I dont know many teams that wait for a corner to TACTICALY counter attack...
Mix26
tommyharmer, Portsmouth were always a nothing little club. The point I was making was how a nothing lower league team can have a richer FA Cup history than Sugar, Levy in the past 21 years. I mean, before Sugar and his apprentice, Levy showed up we were known as arguably the greatest FA Cup team of all times...
pelebro
I know that it was a throw away comment about winning the league, but there is a pattern. Since the bulk of the nineties, the title winners are either teams with long standing managers or teams with sugar daddies. We are neither. But the important thing is that no team has come from nowhere and won the league in years. You must be there or thereabouts for a few seasons, then pounce. The good news is that since Jol, the Ramos trophy and the Harry years, the right direction is there. I am not convinced about the AVB appointment, and have been disappointed with his performance thus far....YET for some reason we are fourth.... Have we created a culture of finishing top four? Arsenal have been a shadow of themselves for a few years, yet still finish highly - due to a culture of top four. Even Man U can look average sometimes yet finish top two. Can we keep it up? Well, we need Avb to learn how to use subs properly. Even if Lennon appears to be ineffective, he certainly occupying someone. Take him off when losing, and you are risking nothing. When winning, you risk your lead, and sometimes the game as we saw yesterday. Despite how many goals as Defoe has scored, he is expensive to the team ethic. Defoe should be the first man subbed if we are winning. We need to develop a way of playing when under the cosh. At present, we roll over and die....and forget how to play football. A good side uses the ball to relieve pressure. We do not.
TonyRich
82spursdebut, yep you've certainly won me over. Why go with the decision of someone who has been in coaching at the highest level all his life, won 4 major trophies including in Europe and practices with the players twice a day in the flesh, working on set-pieces to the minutest detail? No, i'll go with your opinion mate, you clearly know your stuff.
StillRickyVilla
yes Caulker should have left the ball for lloris...hopefully he will next time! But Vertonghens header was shocking...he's a very good player but needs to cut out the mistakes- the sooner we get a settled back 4 the better...
shedboy2
Mix26, true about VDV. His corner kicks were peanuts! But he was a lovely footballer, who would have work wonderfully in AVB's system!
pelebro
Players make mistakes all the time, some have consequences some don't. It is completely unfair to pillory any player for his bad luck. It is a team game, including the manager and he picks the team to play. The mental aspects are his responsibility too, engendering confidence and mutual trust, which is usually the difference between winning and losing when skills are fairly equally matched. For the first time yesterday I saw AVB make a thinking substitution. He wanted to take off Moussa who was tiring but instead of the obvious straight swop with Thud, he first took off Lennon to give Tom time to slot in and then brought on Siggy for Moussa. Did this apparent negative move change the team mindset even though it wasn't intended? Fine margins eh?
Love totty
and the praise for AVB is nauseating...honestly some of you sound like born again christians, the moonies and the Jehovah witnessess all rolled up into one....talk about having faith where no proof is available....
shedboy2
One of our problems under succesive managers is that when setting the criteria for signing players we seem to consider technical playing ability, silky skills, and to fill gaps in the squad, but it appears hardly ever considering their mentality, and their ability to cope in the caldron of the PL. Often we sign players (often from Europe) who lack the battling mentality, and physcal prowess required in England, where every successful club has a general, a warrior, a battler in their engine room. Where is our John Terry, Nemenjar Vidic, Vincent Company. We are in the same position as the current Arsenal team, "too many indians, no chiefs", the nearest we have is Michael Dawson, but unfortunately he hs the attitude but lacks basic ability. Any future sigings shoul be based not only on silky footballing sklls, but also on a "must win", "we will not get beaten" mentality, both are equally important. I maintain that yestrday's result ould not have happened to any other leading PL team, we are ust incredibly brittle wen the heat comes on.
Frank
Very difficult to criticise substitutions when as fans we have both hindsight and also we don't have all (or any) of the information. Injuries, tiredness, tactics, opposition - all things that neither i nor anyone on here has the first idea about. Love totty is right, its fine margins. If Siggy's shot goes in off the bar are we all applauding AVB this morning for his genius tactical substitution? The bottom-line is we are debating details in hindsight that we can't possibly know the answer to at the time or now. I wouldn't beat up AVB over substitutions nor would i congratulate him.
StillRickyVilla
shedboy2 I dont follow any religion yet even person with the slightest knowledge of how diff the PL is and the massive scrutiny from the media and pathetic idiots like yourself that AVB is doing just fine mate... you can dig yourself a hole and bury ur head in it if u like. Us AVB fans are living well above ground and you are welcome anytime...
Mix26
A football managers job is to maximise the use of his squad to gain the highest level of competence. man.city scored a counter attack goal vs spurs....last season....from our attacking position (corner) Inswinging corners are generally a better way of scoring a goal. it's easy to practice corners in training. speed is a god given gift. Avb..is doing a 7/10 job......at the min'..imo'......But he takes steps backwards. ideally...we require a top top striker....as said by me above. Had we won 1-0.....the two players that were ineffectial were Defoe and adebayor...nevermind the score. Thus.....had avb had a top top striker on the bench...........and not used a defensive tactical change when winning the game. He could have used like for like.....as substitution. Why make a tactical change.....when you are winning the game !?........if you make a change..when winning the game..surely it should be like for like, as best you can. Addy and defoe were off their game....at 65mins'...if only we had a top top striker. That's what i believe this talented squad is missing .......Mr.levy !!!!...deadwood out....top striker in.
82spursdebut
Oh wait we lost and now it's smash AVB time... sorry to ruin the party...
Mix26
Sign moutinho! Bale, Moutinho, sandro, Dembele, Lennon.......
01tottenham
So when Harry had VDV taking every FK and corner for 2 seasons u were happy 82spurs?
Mix26
Srv....Yes I agree about possibly knocks, tiredness etc regarding subs, but it is all part of managing. So far, Avb's subs are almost always having a negative effect. He does them too early. Often when we are winning. Every change may have positive effects but you must account for the negative effects. As I said...Lennon coming off means that the opposition need not worry about doubling up. The full back can attack more, and Walker - who is not excelling right now - is even more exposed. Do a like for like sub, and the damage may be minimised. Bring on Hudd however, and you uncover more holes. I am not talking about hindsight because I describe my feelings that I felt at the time of the sub.
TonyRich
siggy's shot was poor.............it should have been on target...not touching the top of the bar. When he approached to hit it...i thought he gonna score here. But instead...........he clips the top of the bar, never looked like going in...never made their goalie work. That said......he is young and has potential and is useful squad member.
82spursdebut
shedboy2. Proof? AVB took a team from bottom to mid table in half a season, with attacking football. 3 trophies in one season at Porto. Unbeaten in an entire domestic league season (only the second time that had happened in Portugal). Youngest manager to ever win a European trophy. Hired as a full time coach at 21 years old. Both B.Robson and J.Mourinho saw something in him, but I'm sure your opinion is more valid than theirs.
Tactically Challenge
A few articles ago, Scotty was the subject of discussion. Well it may well be that Sandro is fantastic but who else would you like to be in your team or to bring on to rally the troops? We missed him last year when he got knackered and this year too.
Love totty
oh mix I must have touched a nerve...being the pathetic idiot I am I obviously didn't mean to....and no I'm not having a go at AVB...read my post again...comprehension, just not what it used to be....
shedboy2
vdv..is history...mix 26..................i'm talking how we can maximise our squad now. Cos'...i want spurs to win win win now.....cos' we have a talented squad. In swinging corners....are generally better at scoring a goal at a corner.....utilise our big guns. Speed for defensive cover.
82spursdebut
I hope the players are taking a hard look the game this morning. I bet they are as gutted as i am, but they need to look at our performances in the last 10-20 mins of games recently and try and work out whats going on. If this is a learning curve then its a major point if we want to be challengers. AVB did not help us at the end of the Everton game at all either. Credit where its due and criticism where its needed. Its not he first time he has made a poor choice when we are in the lead or loosing. Lots to learn from this one! COYS.
SpursOne2
TonyR, its difficult. Who knows re.substitutions? I don't. You don't. Was Lennon injured, tiring? Siggy did well when he came on and almost scored didn't he? We left the 2 Defoe/Ade up top until right near the end which was a positive no? He has taken Defoe off on the hour in the past and been criticised for that too!? Hudd for the absolutely finished Dembele seemed to make sense? So so many variables. You could go on and on debating these details. For every substitution we can in hindsight criticise we can go back and find one that worked out. Main thing is we are doing very well, joint 4th with a good run of games to come and competing this year for trophies with a Euro tour in the Spring. Things aren't that bad are they.
StillRickyVilla
avb..is not proven in the premiership, as yet.......for spurs sake, i hope he becomes mega for spurs.
82spursdebut
Can I say to both the "Blind Faith Brigade" and the "AVB out, Arry lovers", a plague on both your houses. He's not made a great start but we're hanging on so at least give him to the window to come good.
Love totty
Mix - well for me personally I do not change my tune win, lose or draw (well we do not draw do we?). Points, position wise AVB is achieving what is expected....however I do not believe that we are performing at a level that can maintain it. A team that just wins and loses has something fundamentally suspect.
TonyRich
Love Totty - Agree mate, Parker would have been great for this game if he was available. Some of the jokers commenting on that article about him were so off the mark its unreal.
SpursOne2
Yes TC - they obviously saw something in him (and he did win the league with the richest most successful team in it)...and I'm guessing the reason we hired him BUT he's never built a team, never implemented a long term project. Hopefully he'll be good but c'mon to eulogise about a guy who's a gamble, a decent man sure, seems intelligent yes but a manager who's going to take us up a level and become our Wenger, SAF....cross your fingers because nobody knows....
shedboy2
SRV - I am not saying things are bad. I just feel that they are suspect. When we win, it is often fortuitous. We take lead via deflected goal in game that we did not deserve to win. People come away demeaning defensive lapses, but in reality Everton shaded it. We did not perform well enough. Vs Liverpool, we were lucky to win that too. Our second halves are commonly poor. We constantly play Gallas?!?!? Defoe's scoring is masking problems in final third. I am moaning purely because I feel that we are good enough to be fourth on merit, and therefore stay there. At present I have doubts.
TonyRich
Yep, when we finally get Parker, BAE and Kaboul back it upgrades our whole defence in an instant. Going to be like 3 new signings. If Levy also brought in Willian, Moutinho and say Llorente in January (i know, its not going to happen but we need to ACT like a Top 4 club if we are going to be one!) i think we would guarantee at least 4th, perhaps 3rd, and win the UEFA Cup. Without the new signings we will have a good run at it but it depends on other teams, injuries and many other factors.
StillRickyVilla
Shedboy, go on, be true to yourself and admit it, you would love AVB to fail so you can say I told you so. Aint gone happen mate, he will succeed. COYS
ItalianYiddo
I hear you TonyRich but you are simply nit-picking isolated things to beat up AVB with that don't meet with your personal opinion rather than focussing on the bigger picture and being positive. For example, who would you have played in place of Gallas then yesterday? The answer there was no one. Very easy to criticise AVB, a lot more difficult to find a solution. Besides i'm guessing (again you don't know, i don't know) he's in for his leadership and experience and communication skills to talk the likes of Walker, Caulker through games. Probably the organisation that went a long way to nullifying Fellaini, Jelovic for 89 mins?? The only option would have been to bring Verts into the middle and Naughton in at left back, but Naughton is very low on confidence and got torn to shreds v Panathinaikos in the week - so if AVB had done that and Naughton was at fault he would have been critcised for that too wouldn't he?! As i said, you could go into the details and drive yourself silly. We have to trust those who have all the information and make the decisions and see how they go. If things are phucked up and we are lower mid-table this time next year and not in Europe then ok.
StillRickyVilla
Let's get behnd AVB. I have been very critical of him but I am beginning to change my opinion. He has pcked a strong team in the Europa League and it hasn't adversely affected our fitness in the following Sunday game, which goes against the modern convention (it really all is in the mind). I do think he can be a bit negative with his substitutions - when we are defending a lead, we always need an outlet - but I think he is learning. It is absolutely vital that AVB is supported in the transfer market, not necassarily with the mega bucks super stars but with the young hungry players that were supposed to be part of the new era. Mourinho said the first thing he looked at when signing playes was their mentality.This means Daniel Levy not waiting until the end of the month to start dealing and not putting in insulting offers for players we have no chance of signing.
jonathan01
Everton had all their players fit and only just scraped a win at home. We are missing Parker, BAE, Kaboul and Bale! But nearly won. I'm not too worried about Everton being in 4th mid-December, because once they get a couple of injuries, they will drop back to 7th like always!
Tactically Challenge
Ill give u that one Tony yes :). Like I said AVB is doing just fine yet we should acknowledge that by achieving "just fine" is a really good indicator considering the difficulty of our circumstances. No man is perfect but there are no as many humble men around and I get the sense AVB will be a legend one day at Spurs or elsewhere ...
Mix26
pelebro - It's called luck of the draw, that's why the FA cup is so widely appreciated all around the world. Are you going to give me your reason why Pompey appeared in 2 finals and won 1 FA cup. If you even dare to mention Arry then give me your address and i'll pop round to remove you own foot from your mouth. You talk about a club that is on the verge of extinction, still they won a FA cup. I bet that twot with the bell is over the moon!! I do question the realism and general IQ of some people, really!!!
yiddyboy
I was gutted yesterday, but the fact remains that we were a couple of minutes away from a well controlled performance and a very good result. Altho I can see the reasoning in protecting the lead and the players (Dembele recently injured) by the substitutions, I do wonder if the removal of Lennon, who'd been doing a lot of unsung work tracking back and taking Peanut out of the game, allowed him and Jelovic (?) to coast in at the back post. Walker seems to need that extra protection around the box, and when that was removed he Gallas had their same problems again. Shame about the Caulker mix up too. It should be remembered this is a very young team at the back, and altho we looked a bit rocky at times, it only looked like panic stations at the last moment. I think 1-1 would have been a fair result.
DocHotspurs
as Frank mentioned we need to buy players with the right mental fortitude as well as the skills....Character! A few players who have the winning mentality (like VDV had) and someone with the ability to control possession and we'll be able to see out games...
shedboy2
IY- I'll be true to myself...and say I hope he succeeds because he seems a decent, intelligent man. As long as he has the squad's support we have a chance. Do I think he's an amazing manager - no i don't, do I think he has some great tactical knowledge? no more than other managers....can he buy a player and build a team, I like everyone else really have no idea...as for wanting to say I told you so...I was shouting to the roof tops in 2003 that the gov't were sinking us into a black hole only to be told that more intelligent influencial people knew what they were doing...saying i told you so really doesn't have any satisfaction...
shedboy2
Isn't it great to see Dempsey finally getting the recognition in the MOM poll. He was top against the Greeks in my opinion too. Would the "he's not fit to wear the shirt" brigade please prostrate yourselves on the floor so that the rest of us can pour scorn upon your miserable heads. LOL
Love totty
we can't win the league because we sell our best players (sometimes to the teams above us!) and don't replace them with equal or better quality...
shedboy2
shedboy2 - After Crystal Palace and United drew 3-3 in the FA cup final, what would you opinion of Sir Alex have been. Great manager or not convinced, luckily they won the replay to give him a bit more time, the rest is history. I'm not saying AVB is the new Sir Alex, but I'll be very happy if he is and he's at Spurs! Think of how Chelsea will feel then?
yiddyboy
Shedboy, the great thing is we have somehow got hold of a manager who was the most sought after young manager in the world 12 months ago. And not only that he is highly highly motivated to be successful with us. He is 5 years ahead of where Jose Mourinho was at his age! FIVE years! I personally never understood the negativity towards him although that is thankfully on the wane. Yes he is still inexperienced but he has limitless potential. If all the fans really get behind him the next few years could be something special. Lets not hound him out in a few months over a few gutter-press perceived weaknesses.
StillRickyVilla
I donít really think itís a mentality thing with Spurs, because as Ox pointed out it effects most clubs. Everton in fact have drawn a lot of games recently and let in late goals. I think itís a lack of a suitable replacement for Modric. If you go back a couple of seasons to when Modric was injured and missed 10 games, we won the first 4 games of the season, then he got injured. We then picked up 15 points from the 10 games he was missing, not bad, but pro rata would have got us 57points and 7th in the league that season (behind Aston Villa and Liverpool). The only other occasion you might argue Modric was absent was at the end of last season when he was not giving 100%. I also believe if we had Modric now he would be better utilised under AVB than he was under Redknapp.
matt hoten
True SB2, even under ENIC we have brought in some really excellent players...without the hyper-inflation nonsense, but retention is the key. New stadium, regular CL qualification, global commercial appeal, tradition - all these things in time are the building blocks to the virtuous circle.
Love totty
Guys Guys Guys - you're getting it all wrong!!! I was in my local rub a dub watching the Spurs game on some Iranian TV channel and i have never seen us lose whilst in the pub. I have been drinking there for 3 years and every-time we have either drawn or won!! I left yesterday at 90mins on the clock and by the time i got home it was 2-1. Morale of the story - spend more time in the pub!!!
woodyn17
the reasons I really like AVB - he utilises the whole squad, treats all the players with respect and operates a meritocracy where he has also brought through younger talent like caulker and carroll. big improvement all round. he actually works on tactics, prepares the team for who they are actually going to play next, works on set pieces etc, also a big improvement from harry. perhaps most importantly players are actually clearly improving under AVB, it is obvious that he analyses weaknesses and works with individuals to improve on them. Defoe is a better player now than at any point in his career to date. He is still way too selfish but his overall game has improved in a way I never thought possible. Lennon, dawson, sandro, caulker have all improved. AVB puts in the work where Harry never did, it will pay off if he is given time
Guernman
Terry Henry is having another spell at the scum, after yesterday's final minutes any chance we can get JOHN WAYNE?
spu 4 life
Modric never lost us the game yesterday, neither did ENIC or Levy or the new stadium, giving the phucking ball away lost us the 3pts, you know that thing you have to keep hold of when you have it.
spu 4 life
wiltshirespur - All Ferguson (or Moyes for that matter) would say is "nearly doesn't count". That's my point, we make excuses, winners don't.
jod
so many late goals are scored in football, its the nature of the game that the losing team will push everything forward as time runs out. the problem for us is that now we have developed a pattern of conceding so the players will worry about it more and it creates a self perpetuating cycle. it is not easy to fix and it takes years of winning to develop the kind of mentality that united have. the mental strength comes from results more than the other way around. I think that AVB will work on the individual errors that led to each goal etc, and the return of dawson, kaboul, parker and benny will do a lot to shore up the defence and hopefully we will see fewer capitulations in the second half of the season.
Guernman
Haha, not saying this is an omen (Manchester teams just too good), but you say this match typifies why Spurs cant win the league. Well, this isn't the first time Everton have pulled something like that. I seem to remember Everton were down 4-2 to Manchester United at Goodison, and we were actually well into injury time and we scored twice (and could've scored a winner as well) to pull out a result, and of course, United won the league that season LOL.
Rob-EFC
Jod, who said anything about us winning the title? I must have missed that one, or was it Harry the Pikey? I must say I want to give AVB the time and chance but he like a lot of managers make some strange decisions. I really didn't see any reason to make the subs he made yesterday and whenever you take off two forward thinking players for two less forward thinking players (less lesser players) you are very likely to invite the opposition on even more and the risk is you concede late on. In this aspect of management he appears to be worse than others who make the same mistake. He needs to re-think this as it has now costs us around 9 points this season thus far.
tophobunty
Sorry, it was 3-1 down, got that result and last seasons 4-4 draw mixed haha, my bad.
Rob-EFC
Guernman, if we are constantly working on tactics, something is going wrong. In terms of goals conceded we have conceded 25, if you scan the PL table only Fulham (13th), Southampton (15th), Wigan (17th), Readig (19th), and QPR (20th) have conceded more and we are also well down the league re. clean sheets. Together with these stats there is the fact that we concede regularly in the last 10 minutes (currently 8 points lost). If this is meticulous tactical preparation, selection, and substitutions, perhaps we shouldn't bother, and just trust to luck. I still say that AVB' complete lack of playing experiance hampers his judgement, gives him less situations to draw on. I know it has worked for Wenger an Mourinho, but they are the exceptions to prove the rule.
Frank
Actually, I found it refreshing that the question was posed in terms of our not winning the league rather than in terms of whether we can end up in the top four. Can we win the league? Probably not, especially if we keep leaking late match goals like we did yesterday and have far too often. Can we end up in the top four? I haven't the foggiest as we clearly still are a work in progress. But God knows we need a better back four than we show in the closing minutes of matches. It's on the physios and the gods whether and how soon we get BAE and Kaboul back. Without them, the odds are diminished. If they come back and are in form, things will look much better I think. And I wonder why so little comment on the change in our form without Bale yesterday? That wouldn't have changed our late defensive lapses, but it might well have changed the overall dynamics of the match and that might have nullified the worry over the last minutes.
Total knobhead
happy for this discussion Jod. My last post yesterday after the loss was said: someone posted 'if the prem league games lasted 80 minutes we would be in 1st position' what can we do to change losing points in the last 10 minutes of a game. Some say get in new players or will be okay when BAE and Kaboul comes back,some say play the high line. I think the prem game has changed in the last few seasons, it has got faster and more end to end and a lot more goals per game and to hold on to a 1 nil lead is almost impossible. 14 of the last 77 prem league games have been 1-0 or 0-1.
mountainyid
and 3 of the 1-0 wiins were Stoke...they seem to be a team that can hang on to 1-0 leads....so we should beware!
mountainyid
Rob-EFC, you need a new stadium way more than us. From where I was in the Bullens Stand I had two sodding great pillars in the way. Worse than having to listen to all that Scouse talk. :) Has to be said though, there was more movement from the pillars than Defoe.
Love totty
And I was the one who said that players shouldn't be pilloried! See what I did there?
Love totty
Rob-EFC, how nice to have a supporter of another club to come on this site to make sensible, level headed posts! Top man, hope Everton do well, settle for 4th behind us?
ItalianYiddo
Oh please. Frank, please consider. Bill Nicholson finished 18th in his 1st season, he had never managed a League club before & was therefore more inexperienced in management than AVB. He wouldn't have stood a chance with the likes of you today & thats your problem mate, you're not prepared to give anyone a chance. If they don't hit the ground running from the off, manager or player, they are by default useless in your eyes. Stop listening to the Dynamic Dickheads that infest TalkSport from 4pm & accept reality for once please.

Spuds-U-Like
jonathan1, I am really warming to you. And sorry again for yesterday's unnecessary ouburst, as I said it was the anger in me after we threw away the 3 points. COYS
ItalianYiddo
Love totty - Unfortunately I misseg the game yesterday, although I understand Defoe was not really effective. This is good news for the Swansea game as he is a 1 in 2 man and yesterday was his day off! Frank - Statistically more posters come on here to have their say after a loss than a win. What does that tell you about those kind of fans?? AND THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE!!!
yiddyboy
Ok, all together now "YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARRRRRE, NEGATIVE AVB HATERS, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!
yiddyboy
To be honest Frank, you are anti ENIC/Levy yet your posts pretty much back up how they operate. Double standards or personality clash, let me know!!
yiddyboy
fact is we missed bale so much yesterday, I couldn't count the number of times our players looked to the left only to see noone there. 442 requires width for me and we just didn't have it yesterday. adebayor, bale, dembele and defoe all had poor games so to nearly win was an astounding feat!
wiltshirespur
wilts, we had like for like with Townsend but as with Pikey AVB has his favs and wont give the younger like for like a run, this could be the answer often in this situation, how did Bale get a start with us?
tophobunty
We just played Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool, West Ham, Fulham and Everton and are still in joint 4th place. After those fixtures, many (ie Frank) expected us to be mid table, but we arent, so the goal posts are moved yet again and the new argument is that we have lost too many points (8) and should be 2nd? 3rd? So AVB is being criticised for not being top 2 with this injury ravaged squad, which is imo inferior to last season? harsh!
Guyver
tophobunty I totally agree but is everton away the right time to drop someone in? especially seeing as townsend isn't exactly a workhorse and we knew we were going to be spending a lot of time defending in the game. I completely understand where you're coming from but I can see the reasoning behind being more solid in the middle.
wiltshirespur
ah yes guyver I'd forgotten all the morons droning on about how we'd finish mid table this season under AVB. they've gone rather quiet haven't they?
wiltshirespur
topho, that's unfair. AVB is involving the squad much more than Harry. IMO he picked the best available team for Everton away, not the game for Townsend.
ItalianYiddo
Well said Guyver - Some of the delude fans just like to argue and pick fault. There are even some that seem to think anything other than a win is failure. Off topic but are we all impressed with the instant turnaround at Q-P-Argh, argh, argh, argh argh???
yiddyboy
As I mentioned above, I didn't see the game. I see the poll has Dempsey down as MOTM, which in my book sees him on the up as he's done well in the last few games.
yiddyboy
Guyver - the squad is different to last year, worse in some areas better in others, but still more than capable of 4th given the state of rivals. In fact it is only the unexpected poor results of them that has kept us in it so far. You might call that a negative view, I see it as objective. 4th is the realistic target and the one to be judged against.
Love totty
Can I just remind everybody WE ARE JOINT 4TH! We are three points off 3rd! We are still in Europe! We have taken 9 points from the last 12! Everton are unbeaten at home! We've had potentially our four best players missing or playing out of position most games! We've had four of the hardest away games in the league! We have a new style, system, team and manager! We have money to spend in January (hopefully!) Who would you rather be supporting? Chelsea? haha? Arse? Haha even funnier! Liverpool and Newcastle had top four aspirations and look at them. Only West Brom, currently on a losing streak, Everton, equal with us, and Stoke who play the world's most boring football, can be said to be over-achieving thus far. Most pundits had us down for 6th. We're 5th. So all good in my book.
Sebthespur
Italian Yiddo, I knew you'd see the light. I've made enough over the top posts myself straight after games! We have to keep calm and believe we are on the right track. We have a young progressve manager who needs time and support (are you listening Daniel Levy). Give AVB what he wants in January and we will be on our way.
jonathan01
Spuds you like, I probably know a bit more about Billy Nick, I was there. Yes he was more inexperianced in management than AVB, but what he did have was a mine of experiance in a great Spurs team (the 1950-52 team), was a very cultured footballer, and also possessed Yorksire grit, he built from the ground up the great double winning team . AVB has never played, inherited an outstaning club side at Porto that was head and shoulders the best in the Portugese league, where to be fair to him he enjoye predictable success. He then inherited a ready made team at Chelsea, but didn't last long, the then came in at Spurs after the club had enjoyed 3 successive top 5 finishes and a CL quarter final, and he is very much WIP, the jury is still out. People say let him build his own team, how do we know he can, he has never had to before.
Frank
Italian, I am not sure he is rotating any more than harry? I guess there's some stat out there which would answer the question. I am all for AVB but equally all for him learning from mistakes, which he has done to a degree such as Naughton at left back is a risk. You might well be right in the fact this game was a toughie for Townsend, I just love players who have the capacity to drive the oppo back...it's a weakness of mine. Was a frustrating day/game.
tophobunty
a good point you make Wilts...
tophobunty
LOVE this thread, everyone's posting quality comments, VitalSpurs is back!!!
tengboon
Frank, you old head. Love to read your perspective from someone who's been following from 50+ years. You're an old school voice on here that we love. It must not make sense to you, AVB's appointment, someone who's never played at a professional level, but every sport is witnessing these changes. Take tennis for example, Nick Bollitieri never hit a pro tennis ball in his life, but noone in the history of tennis has coached more Grand Slam champions and world #1's. Maybe individual sports are different than team, you may argue, but I think these days football is open to fresh minds who perhaps haven't been ingrained or limited by seasons of intense training by other coaches and systems. Thinking outside the box, some might call it.
tengboon
Yiddyboy, how can you possibly liken anything I say, do, or believe in, to Messrs Lewis and Levy and the way they operate (or more accurately fail to operate) at THFC. I can't understand how you make the link and I find it offensive. I have gone though my life with a series of ethics, values, honesty and integrity totally foreign to those two persons (I nearly said gentlemen), and I dont wish to be associatted with either under any circumstances. I have even paid my taxes as well, rather than buggering off to the Bahamas out of the way.
Frank
frank....everyone is entitled to their opinion but some on here are more entitled than others...I spent a shed load of time last season and the seasons before defending HR only to get grief in spade loads back...AVB is different though, he is responsible for some terrible results, like last night, like Wigan, Llke West Brom, last night was one of the worse capitulations your ever likely to see, if HR did that all hell would break lose here on VS but beacuse its AVB its because he is in "transition" so here is the deal...AVB take a bow well done for the result at OT ...AVB, last nights defeat was ultimately your fault that's why you get paid £5m a year, to take the praise and the flack in equal measure....some wish to worship at the alter of AVB, I dont give a $hit anymore whose name is above the door thre all as bad as each other, all I want is some consistency and some results to go with it, what I dont want is to see 4-4-2 formation and then watch 65 minutes of a match where we gave 65% of the pitch to the opposition. If you set out a 4-4-2 play like a 4-4-2 if you want to park a bus put 4 at the back and 6 across the middle.....If I pay to see live matches I have the right to complain, the supporters that went up to Goodison didnt deserve that result or that performance, end of!
OyVeh Maria
So was I Frank, just, & so I know a lot about the great Bill Nicholson mate. As for AVB, his lack of playing experience is irrelevant to a greater degree, it would've been useful of course. But as we know, an awful lot of really great players are unable to coach to a decent level, not many have consistently challenged for or won honours, so its not that great an advantage. Some of the really best managers have been average players.

As for AVB's time at the Chavs, everyone seems to have forgotten he was tasked with overhauling an aging squad. When he tried to meet that brief, he suffered a revolt by the players he was tasked with replacing & Abramovich caved in rather than back the guy he appointed.

You ask how we know wjhether AVB can build his own team, well we know as much as we did when Bill came in don't we? Nobody could have forseen how great he was going to be. AVB will probably never be another Billy Nick, but unless he's given time, resources & our support, he can't hope to get anywhere near those achievements, no one can & thats my beef. No one seems to want to give the guy a chance, anybody with an agenda seems determined to get him sacked. That ginger tw@ on TS is banging on about him AGAIN today with yet another dopey poll. I just wish they'd give it a rest.

Spuds-U-Like
Whether you like to believe it or not this has all come down to AVB and us conceding 10 goals in the last 10 minutes of a game and scoring 0. He is the coach and he is the one who is making these changes at that point in the game and they have never paid off so far. 80 minutes isn't a match and we may have ran all over Everton for that amount of the game but it only takes 2 minutes for us to lose this game and it comes down the inexperience from the coach and players.
RagingSpur
And that's enough for them to get a kicking then is it Raging? I hope all those who have a go at our manager & players are all 100% perfect at their jobs for 100% of the time, if not, they're hypocrites.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Otherwise, shut the phuck up!

Spuds-U-Like
Love totty, the only area of the team that is an upgrade on last season is the defence, which is probably the most injury hit part of our team. This time last season we had the like's of Sandro, Kranc, Corluka, Pav, Defoe, Pienaar (before loan) on the bench. This season we've had Livermore, Falque, Townsend, Naughton and Siggy on the bench. It's not just different, it's inferior. Harry didnt get the most out of a very good squad, AVB doesnt have much of a squad to get the most out of (in comparison). A couple of injuries in certain position's really cripple us and should force any reasonable supporter to lower expectations accordingly.
Guyver
OyVeh Maria, did you actually see the match yesterday? I thought the team done ok, very, very close to doing very well. How many teams done a lot better there? Read Rob-EFC post on the match thread.
ItalianYiddo
The grim reaper known as RagingSpur appears, it's shameful you only show up after a defeat.
Guyver
You're getting a little hysterical Spuds. No-one should expect perfection or even judge capability on individual games. The points total is all that will matter ultimately when judgement time comes.
Love totty
RagingSpur has a point & if you can`t see that then maybe you should practice what you preach .Do exactly yourself what you`re telling others to do
big cockeral
Guyver - I consider Dempsey, Dembele, Vertonghan, Caulker, Lloris, Naughton and Siggurdson rather good additions to the squad. Much as I loved VDV he was off the pitch more often than on it. Modders is unquestionably missed and injuries to Parker, Kaboul and BAE are unfortunate but our rivals have had their problems too.
Love totty
Good additions they may be Love totty, but our bench for most of this season has been inferior to last season, which was the main point I was making.
Guyver
OyVeh,speak for yourself. I went up to Goodison, left home at 9am and got home at 10pm, at least £100 worse off, gutted about the last two goals of course, but not moaning about AVB or the team performance. It was not a great game,but a decent game and a draw might have been the fair result. I also went to several away games at the end of last season, a stronger team "managed" by your mate Harry and his two sidekick jokers, and I paid good money to watch absolute rubbish performances (remember Villa at the end of last season).And then had to listen to Redknapp's crap afterwards.
matt hoten
Guyver, I showed up for West Ham when we won.
RagingSpur
This is the best debate we've had on VS in ages. Everyone is entitled to theirs opinion and I agree with a lot of what OyVeh Maria says but I do think AVB realises where we are going wrong and he is intelligent enough to change things. The January transfer window will reveal a lot about AVB's plans and whether Daniel Levy will support him. If we end up with the usual last minute trolly dash we have no chance of progressing.
jonathan01
Why am I the bad guy for stating the truth? We have conceded 10 goals and scored 0 in the final 10 minutes of games this year! That isn't how you win a game and that is totally up to coaching. If you don't have a finger to point and think it's acceptable than go ahead and keep your mouth shut and think things will just magically change.
RagingSpur
matt ....I'll give you that but yesterday was not our finest hour but we were still 1-0 up with only injury time to go ffs......and yes I remember the Villa result all too well we were down to 10 men and we drew 1-1...we were'nt 1 -0 up with just injury time to go were we? I wish we had been cos we would have closed that game out
OyVeh Maria
The only reason some of you won't dare complain is because AVB is closer to your heart than HR was. This isn't even my argument anymore nor do I care at all for HR or what he does. It comes down to AVB can't get the results when they are needed. God forbid if Gomes or Fridel had made the same mistakes that Lloris has made in recent appearances they would be touted not good enough. I can only imagine if Bassong made the same awful mistakes in defense and the players you have so close to your heart that he would get the chop.
RagingSpur
It comes down to the same attitude we have had for a while under different coaches and we cannot finish these games out. We don't have that never say never attitude. We have had different players and different coaches and none of them have been able to change this mentality it seems. Do you really think I care if AVB/Mourinho/Pep/HR or any other coach would be here and they had lost that game I wouldn't be upset? I don't care if AVB is coach I have accepted that but to concede 10 goals in the final 10 minutes and score none in 16 rounds of PL matches is nothing acceptable.
RagingSpur
OyVeh, If I had to be critical of AVB's tactics yesterday it would be that we were very weak defensively on our left side,Vertonghen caught out several times. Ironically, we could have done with Pienaar on our left side to help bottle that up.AVB quite cleverly stopped Baines, who I think is the best left back in the premiership from advancing, so we had a less talented Coleman marauding down our left. And instead of having a Modric or Parker to come on as sub we only had a Huddlestone or Livermore. And Ovleh, remember being 2-0 up against Arsenal last season, we failed to see that one out big time.
matt hoten
Raging, you said last season that if we lost Modric we would descend to mid-table.So why is it AVB's fault now.
matt hoten
Throwing away a 13 point lead with our best squad for decades is what I call unacceptable. Fifth at this stage of the season with a new coach who hasn't yet been able to field his best available side is more than OK. COYS
ItalianYiddo
Raging, your dislike for AVB is clouding your judgement. Give him a chance, when he has more fit players available and a chance to bring him some new aces in January (Daniel Levy permitting) watch us go. You simply have to give any new manager some time. I'd like to know what you said after the West Ham game. Surely not something positive!!
jonathan01
Gary Neville has said it all on the MNF. Something that can be changed quite easily. It's all about belief! COYS
jonathan01
"What really scares people is that the Spurs manager might be successful with his idiosyncratic and more scientific approach."
Tactically Challenge
"As an outsider, Villas-Boas places little significance on seniority in the dressing room, he doesnít believe established international stars should be immune to change and new challenges."
Tactically Challenge
We mock what we donít understand, which is why Spurs boss Andre Villas-Boas is still to win over a hostile media and sceptical supporters.
Tactically Challenge
Above quotes are taken from an article on AVB, its from September, but seems relevant to this debate. http://sport.uk.msn.com/socialvoices/blogpost.aspx?post=f8ff700a-0d29-47b4-b670-834016c505be
Tactically Challenge
Spurs supporters are naturally pessimistic as we've had more false dawns than a coachload of trannies. We are hamstrung by our dictum that we must win in style, and, unfortunately, post Mackay, (yes, Dave) we don't have enough of his robustness and sheer will-to-win to ally to our flair and thus produce a team capable of consistency and the title, while still modeled on Spurs' principles. Given the intervening 50 odd years, we do get a little testy on the subject of winning the league, as I for one have heard it all before. A more interesting question is whether we would eschew our style for a little more, dare I say it, Woolwich pragmatism?
lordjohnny
We missed a big chance last year to qualify in 3rd and be able to attract the likes of Hazard. I hoped that a strong campaign to Xmas might re-ignite that possibility with the January window but it's now on a knife edge. We neither can't risk big money nor attract big players if the odds are against us and let's face it, January is not the best time for buying even if Levy is backing AVB. Whatever the case, he will be given more time, of that I'm certain so plenty more opportunity for us to disagree and peddle our own theories.
Love totty
94 miles to travel home and needing petrol !!! - i've just had the most amazing journey home, filling my car up at the new spurs service station, i was almost home and dry, only for my car to stop and run out of petrol after 80 miles.
spu 4 life
Gallas says we have to stop throwing away leads, i say Kaboul, Vertonghen, Caulker, Dawson and some place far far away in never never land......................................................................................................................................................................................................................gallas, hey his behind you
spu 4 life
FACT OF THE DAY: If all premier league games had finished on 80 minutes this season Spurs would be top of the league. Surely†++this stat just disproves the article. All we have to do is learn how to do it from 80 minutes onwards without getting arrogant and we are top. Just a few minor tweaks in the squad mentality from, "This is as good as it gets". To, "We can win the league". I don't think it will take him long, because the players are obviously listening to him to have improved, so when he addresses that fully it will be sorted.
chrishove123
I like AVB and hope he has a long term plan for the club, top to bottom, which will see us capable of challenging for the top honours. There is however a niggling doubt that has crept in of late and that is due to his inability to make match winning changes. By that I mean both in the mentality of the players and on the field of play to. I understood him replacing Dembele yesterday as the guy was obviously exhausted. It was his removal of Lennon when both Baines and Osman were on yellow cards that handed Everton the initiative by freeing both players from the job of keeping Lennon and Walker under wraps. A very naive change which cost us dear yesterday.
Levy and ENIC must back him in January or we'll end up finishing mid table and well of the pace. It's time for ENIC to put up or sell up, no more 'ones for the future' until we have a world class forward and a world class playmaker. Get those in and a top four finish, along with the monetary rewards they bring, is ours to lose.
thfc1882whl
Thfc1882, you are so right. If ENIC and Levy do not back AVB then the whole project becomes pointless. i do not expect Levy to spend mega bucks. But I do expect him to pursue realistic targets that I am sure AVB has identified rather than put in phoney bids for players we have no chance of getting only to succumb to the usual last minute panic buys.
jonathan01
Does anyone know why Tom Carroll wasn't on the bench? I would have brought him on in preference to any of the subs used. We need a new striker soon, either buy or promote from within. There are some extremely talented young players at Spurs. One of whom, Pritchard, is now on the radars of RM and Barca. I am not one to single out players for criticism, normally, but if you want players committed to the cause then please remove the shirt from Adebayors back. His nonchalance comes a close second to his arrogance.
jacobslad
jacobslad, because AVB is giving chances to all the squad players, and Carroll didn't do too well against Panathinaikos.
Tactically Challenge
TC...I thought he played very well...as he has in other games.
jacobslad
thfc Lennon also looked exhausted so thats why he came off.
matt hoten
matt hoten ... Lennon didn't seem to be exhausted, at least nowhere near as tired as Dembele. By removing Lennon, we all but told them that we were going to sit in and defend what we had. It's not as if it was the first time we've tried and failed to retain a lead. Much as I like AVB, he has to take his share of the blame for what is becoming far too common. Other teams will never be beaten mentally until we learn to hold on to a lead and that means AVB either changing his mentality or being provided with better quality throughout the squad.
thfc1882whl
thfc Lennon had a poor game and was ineffective for most of the game He was on several occasions in the second half reduced to walking at times. I dont understand why a manager should not substitute a player having a poor match, it makes sense to me.
matt hoten
jacobslad. He did ok, but went missing in the second half, and for a Midfielder thats not good. He has the technical ability, but needs the douche-bag factor to succeed. Hate to say it, but Wilshere will be a success because we is an arrogant turd, Carroll needs a little more of this!
Tactically Challenge
Should have got berbs back.His 2 years at the lane up there with the best.
duckworth
I luv Spurs
duckworth
JOD Im sorry but you're edging on the mental side... 88 seconds is what defied our game, all kicked off by an RARE error by a young CB who has an amazing future ahead of him. Caulker panicked, had he not then Lloris would've gathered & nullified the pressure & countered. Everton's tails WOULDN'T of been up & we'd of sen out a 1-0 away victory. However due to that ONE mistake, it shook us, our defence panicked, we lost.

I applaud AVB & his tactics had been spot on, well until he removed Lennon instead of JD & moved Dembele to the right. That was the only real mistake, but had Siggy's shot gone in it would've been 2-0 & Everton would've hid... A lot of what if's but ALL very true, so to bemoan AVB & our lack of winning mentality is harsh & untrue. As Gary Neville pointed out on TV tonight, we've conceded 9 goals & blown 8 pts in the final 10 mins of games this season. Now had we been more stable (we would've been had BAE, Kaboul & Parker were fit, therefore allowed the new signings to settle better) we'd be sitting 2nd in the League, YES thats right SECOND ! Its just more concentration in the final 15mins, its NOT rocket science, just better individual discipline for those on the pitch in the final 15mins. Deal with that & 3rd WILL be the MINIMUM we achieve this season, do that then next season we WILL compete for the Title.

IAVBIT ILIT COYS
True Spurs Supporter
TC. Well you learn something everyday on here. "Douche bag" factor. A fanny rinser..never heard it used in reference to someone's personality. I don't agree, of course, plenty of great players have succeeded without recourse to arrogance.
jacobslad
I believe that we CAN win the league in the coming years. We can do it. COYS!!
Madaboutspurs
jacobslad. I suppose I'm more referring to self-belief, rather than being an out and out douche! It takes mountains of self belief to succeed as a top footballer. Call it arrogance, confidence or whatever, Carroll doesn't have enough of it. He doesn't have that assertive nature of the top players, and with no strong physical attributes, technical midfielders need strong mental attributes to succeed. Its rare for someone to develop those at the age of 20. You either have them or you don't. I think he can be a good footballer, but probably not top level, which is what we at Spurs aim for!
Tactically Challenge
Matt and Jonathan, my only argument here is that we shouldn't be conceding 10 goals in the final 10 minutes of a game over 16 matches! I don't care if Pep or Mourinho were the coach nor if it was Harry. This is something that is very disturbing and it's something that is costing us a lot of points.
RagingSpur
I think we're all in agreement here: Losing the Everton match by giving up two goals in a few seconds in the waning minutes was horrible. Let's not see that again.
Total knobhead
We as fans have the right to criticize things that are blatantly obvious. Why are we pessimistic as fans? Because these are things that constantly seem to be happening and the team is rolling over and not fighting it out and it is the coaches responsibility to take care of these issues! I'm only critical cause I want the best out of this team and I feel that the team doesn't fight for 90 minutes. Everton beat us simply because they put their heart out there even when they didn't look to get anything out of it. We tuck our tail between our legs and simply seem to give up when things don't go according to plan and this needs to change. If SAF lost a game in this manner can you imagine that locker room after? I can tell you a lot of players would be riding the bench next game because of this. I understand we may not have the same depth in the team but some players need to understand if you don't lay your heart on the field you will be riding the bench for someone who will!
RagingSpur
Raging, as "fans" you also have the right to praise what is obvious, like our improvement in away games for example. You also have the right to post a lot more than 5 words when we win, just like you do after a defeat. You were convinced we'd be in mid table by now, so almost half way through the season, AVB is currently far exceeding your expectations, yet you see no positives?
Guyver
Or you prefer to keep them private. whats that saying? Haters will broadcast your failure, but whisper your success..
Guyver
Guyver, you are correct but I wouldn't say exceeding because a season is 36 games and I can tell you HR was exceeding in the 1st half and was hated by the time we played 36. We have dropped out of the Cup and we didn't play the best in Europa in which AVB wanted to take very seriously. He isn't doing awful and he isn't turning head with success either. Are we still a team on the up? Yes, we have improved from a decade ago and I'm happy about that.
RagingSpur
Yes a premiership season is "38" games and if AVB lose's a 13pt lead over Arsenal, doesnt win a single away game in 2013 all while trying to secure the Portuguese national team job, im sure he'll receive a lot more hate than he is now. But as it stand's, he's doing well with a squad I know you don't rate as highly as last season.
Guyver
As much as I support AVB,I agree with Raging here,10 goals in last 10 min of 16 games isnt normal at all.It was well evident before the Everton game and has come to light now.And we always find excuses.Transition,Injuries,no rest.....
SilwalYid
and for the positives-We can still finish 3rd with bluescums and redscum struggling.Bale,Scotty & BAE available for next game,AVB winning over many fans,Dempsey proving his worth,Jan transfer market opening & easy run of games ahead.Top4 sud be cemented!!
SilwalYid
We have lost 14 points in the last 10-15 mins of matches. Good sides to the opposite, they turn 'defeats' into points. However we have a different side to last year so being behind in points, conceding more goals, scoring less are to be expected when you lose your best players. We are still trying to find a way to play but those of us who like our team to play positive football will just have to put up with defensive minded counter attack. Who who dares wins...and that will not be AVB. Hopefully the team will improve a bit and we will manage to cling on to a few results and maybe snatch a top six. Never was this season going to offer any more than that.
Forever Spurs
As for the poll...what numpties have voted? The defence did a really great job under the cosh. The midfield and attack were non existent, apart from Sandro, and Caulker together with Gallas were excellent. Of course there is huge bias here and people struggle with reality but any neutral could not but notice how well the defence played overall. I thought that until the last few minutes this was the best TEAM performance of the season. Against a fit, strong, fighting, energetic, spirited attacking ambitious team we held out well. In the end we were just beaten by our failing all season...which has not been addressed by the coaching staff/manager...dropping too deep. People criticise the high line but that is a strength. When we abandon that then we ask for trouble, and get it in almost every game
Forever Spurs
No Love totty, not hysterical mate, phucking p1$$ed off with all the player/manager assasination going on because expectations are ridiculously high in some quarters. Its gone way, way beyond mere criticism recently. What happened to the days when you supported your team no matter what?

This site's going to pot, where's all the laughs? Its all doom & gloom, there are even moans when we win FFS!

Spuds-U-Like
Most of these late goals we concede is down to our forwards in ability to hold up the ball and buy us some time, I thought Ade had one of his worst games ever for us on Sunday. Nothing he did was of any use, he actually looked a worse target man ten Defoe did?? We do need a Rooney or tevez type player upfront, someone that Defenders have to half murder to get the Ball off. Keeping possession stops the other teams scoring, a good forward can buy us time forcing fouls from CBs marking them. This is also the key to Braking up opposing teams momentum. Our problems are our forwards concede the ball far too easily to defenders so our defence is always on the Back foot when we are trying to run down the final minutes in Games. COYS
WestStandEnclosure
Frank - You are always negative and according to YOU, so are Messrs. Levy and Lewis. Peas in a pod my old friend!!
yiddyboy
Oh and is it coincidence that Big C only makes one post when he is someone who is normally full of opinion and at the same time Ragingspur turns up with quite a few posts? Hmmm!!
yiddyboy
I'm not sure how this thread turned into another AVB argument, (although I think it would help if the blind faith brigade would stop trying to give him credit for the sun rising and so precipitating a response!)...you can always debate minutiae but you could see what he was trying to do with the subs....was is it that that caused the last minute capitulation? I don't think so...it was just a combination of errors and having to play Gallas who is just not dominant, especially in the air...
shedboy2
yiddyboy - Funny you say that, i always thought Big C and Horny Helen were one in the same ha. Strange... :-)
SpursOne2
I agree there shedboy2 - Fully behind AVB but the loss to Everton was a bit of a kick to the old testies. It's hard not to vent some of that you know?
SpursOne2
SpursOne2- yeah it was a kick in the knackers but that's football...imagine how happy we'd all have been the other way round!! It was a close game decided by a couple of mistakes and playing an old CB....
shedboy2
Why we cant win the League? Well it's simple, a year ago at this exact time we were close to the top of the table in the title hunt and playing the best football seen from a Tottenham side since Burkinshaw. A year on the loveley football has gone and we find ourselves 13 points behind the leaders and out of the title race! I am not going to get into a debate now about whether firing Harry was the correct thing to do because he has gone, and we now have a new coach called AVB who I wish all the best. But on the short term it cannot be argued that we have quickly regressed as a team capable of at least competing for the title, if only for a few months of the season, back into to a side struggling to stay in the hunt for a top 4 place. Last season only making 4th spot felt like a big disappointment, but this season, if we make the top 4 it will feel like a marvelous achievement! So we have regressed from being a outside title hopefuls, back to top 4 hopefuls again in the space of a few months. That is regression! Of course I would like AVB to be given the time to create his own team, but this is not going to happen because Levy has already got himself through 8 coaches in 13 seasons. So time is not on AVB's side, nor is the support of the board financially. A board who have 2 share holders who's personal wealth totals more than 4.5 billion. The bottom line truth is, if you really want to see your beloved Spurs win that Premiership title you better start singing "ENIC OUT" asap! If your happy staying top 4 hopefuls for another decade or so, ENIC are the mob for you! I have much bigger dreams for the club I support than Levy's vision, which include winning the title, playing in the CL, and one day walking into that new stadium... ENIC OUT!
pelebro
pelebro -Who's is your ideal sugar daddy owner? Look at Chelsea, do you really want Spurs to be run like them? Look at City, is that really the answer? Yes, we were title contenders but like the idiots that we all are that never materialized and we sank quicker than the Titanic. Oh and we better ball players in VdV and Modric, why did we sink? Because Levy didn't spend £50m in January, get real man. Levy is a business man, Spurs is a business NOT a toy!
yiddyboy
yiddyboy, You see seem quite happy that 'Levy is a business man' and not a football chairman with the talent or ability to win us anything other than a B team League Cup once every 13 seasons or so, after getting himself through 8 coaches, 3 DOF's and very close to 100 football players he sat down with and signed... And you seem very proud that 'Spurs is a business' with an empty trophy cabinet, no Champions League football and no new stadium! As I said in my previous post, if you happy with no CL, no title hopes, and an empty trophy cabinet, season after season, and no new stadium that Danny Boy promised 13 long seasons back, and a Chairman with the worst trophy per season percentage of any THFC chairman in over half a century ENIC are the mob for you...
pelebro
pelebro - The new training facility is here and the stadium is in place to be built. They have provided us with that. We can argue about the time it has taken, but the fact is you have to take them off your list above. Its great news for everyone, players staff and fans alike. Plus all the development down here in the area. I'm pretty much with you on applying pressure for Trophys. And i never like the amount of managers we have gone through instead of setting up for stability. But credit where its due there fella. Plus, you want to even more change from the top down when we have already had major change. So how many more years will that add on? I think this 'new era' we are trying to follow we need to stick with for now. Levy i hope provides us more players in Jan/Summer if he means what he said about taking us onwards. If we go through the motions and continue to improve, get more experience then we may be in a better position to invest...or you might get your wish, you never know
SpursOne2
Pelebro-You won't persuade the sufferers of Flat Cap Syndrome that ENIC has completely effed up. I've tried, and all they come back with is the usual 'in Levy we (t)rust' mantra, despite the evidence staring them in the face.
lordjohnny
lordjohnny - Best bet is to turn up at games and chant 'ENIC OUT'. Maybe 36,000 non flat cap surfers as you put it, will join in eh?
SpursOne2
Flat cap surfers? Eee, by 'eck dude, I left me whippet on' t'beach.
lordjohnny
:-)
SpursOne2
I see Arsenal have a new stadium, one of the best Managers in prem history, Billionaire owners, OH and an empty trophy cabinet. And yes, I'm fully aware that our chairman is a business man, the only chairmen that are not are sugar daddy's. Would you prefer own club to be run like a toy to a spoilt brat? That is all I'm saying! Unfortunately pelebro and co, you are all from the Abramovich school of thinking..ie "Instant success" or as most see it, totally afar from reality!!!
yiddyboy
RagingSpurs argument that no matter changing teams, changing coaches etc., we don't have that fight-tooth-and-nail mentality to close out games. Sorry, but most teams with the exception of Man U EITHER play beautiful, fast-paced football like us, OR play efficient, crunching, ugly but tenacious football. It's very VERY difficult to have both. In fact most "flair" players, the Thierry Henry's, the Berbatov's, they are highly skilled but not the bulldogs that battle for every scrap. We have a lot of skilled players and a couple of bulldog beasts in Parker and Sandro, and we have to maintain that number of skilled flair players to sustain our brand of exciting football. BUT, with injuries, we're then susceptible to late tiredness and lapses in concentration.
tengboon
yiddyboy, Arsenal have 2 of the things on the wish list of most Tottenham fans, CL Football and a new stadium. Thank god AFC have a senile coach who has lost his marbles...
pelebro
yiddyboy, you write "Would you prefer own club to be run like a toy to a spoilt brat?" Have you not noticed yiddyboy, that we already have our very own spoilt little brat running our football club, named Daniel Levy. Yes big Joe Lewis has given 'Sir Sugar daddy's' apprentice his very own personal football club to play with. Real life Fantasy Football! Only problem is Danny boy is not very good at all at Fantasy Football, with the worst trophy per season percentage of any THFC chairman in over half a century. But that doesn't bother our Danny Boy in the slightest. He will be back playing fantasy football with our club in the January window, buying and selling and hiring and firing, and knocking down buildings in the local Tottenham area, in preparation for Big Joe to sale up, when price is right... And then Big Joe will buy his spoilt little brat Danny Boy, his next little corporate play thing...
pelebro
Yiddyboy, there is a world of difference between "instant success" and 12+ years of abject failure. You mention Arsenal, but ommit to mention their 14 consequetive seasons of CL football. The actions of ENIC, Lewis, Levy have actually ensured that we would not progress i.e. no new stadium, 8 coaches and counting, no realistic investment in "A list" players, content to shop in Aldi instead of Fortnum and Mason or Harrods or even Waitrose. I am priveliged to remember being accused on the odd occasion of going to Highbury, of "only coming down here to take the pi$$" by Arsenal fans, how things have changed, how we have fallen behind, why? The answer is of course the difference between the attitude, ambition, an vision of the owners of the 2, hence the new stadium trophies (perhaps not in last 7 seasons) but still regular CL qualification, I don't think you can describe Hill- Wood or Kronke as sugar daddies, in fact they are determined not to allow their potential sugar daddy Usmanov to get control. Some of us don't buy the Lewis, Levy propaganda re. their success. Their bank manager may be delighted but they will not be remembered in history as successful THFC owners not for one Mickey Mouse trophy in 13 years
Frank
yiddyboy, you write, Unfortunately pelebro and co, you are all from the Abramovich school of thinking..ie "Instant success" Is it not your hero Danny boy who demands instant success from his coaches? I mean he has already got himself through 8 coaches in 13 seasons. Is it not therefore Levy who is from the Abramovich school of thinking, with his nasty backing stabbing style of hiring and firing coaches? Only our Danny boy has an empty trophy cabinet, whilst the nasty Russian keeps his full! As for your claims that real Tottenham fans like myself demand instant success from our owners. Well it's been 13 seasons and counting yiddyboy... Is that "totally afar from reality" as you put it. Have the 13 years not happened? Was it all just a dream, a kind of surreal ENIC nightmare??? It's time to wake up my yids... ENIC OUT!
pelebro
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