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Is Obika a short term solution?

I seem to recall a few years ago, many Spurs fans hailing Johathan Obika one of our golden generation and someone who had a great future at White Hart Lane.

Yesterday, I actually asked whether Obika would have achieved less in terms of goals and assists than Emmanuel Adebayor this season and though Jon has yet to match the inflated expectation's of a few season's ago, I wonder if he is a player that could and should benefit from Adebayor's absence for a few weeks even if that benefit is a promotion to the bench as emergency cover for Jermain Defoe?

As has often been the case, Obika is scoring plenty for the U-21s (including two more yesterday) and since his early scoring form on loan at Yeovil, he has found hitting the net harder, you have to ask if that is more about the quality of supply or certainly in one or two loans, he has either been played in a wider role (Yeovil Part II) or as cover (Millwall). As is often the case, being great or terrible on a loan is no guarantee of future success or failure.

At Twenty-two, Obika is perhaps at a cross-roads in his career and though he can still be regarded as an U-21 for this season, that changes from August, therefore you assume he will be loaned, moved on or be in limbo. Too old for the development teams unless he plays as an over aged player and perhaps not considered good enough for the first team. Could this be considered a final chance, should he get it?

I quite like Obika from what I have seen of him over the last few seasons. he appears quick, energetic and reasonably strong at around the six foot mark and certainly in the younger ages, has a good eye for goal. Question is whether he has that extra gear to push from impressive junior to good enough senior, especially when that senior is in the Premier league.

Perhaps Spurs need to be realistic in the medium term and accept there is a need for four strikers, but getting two more in quick succession is difficult and comes with potential problems. Obika knows the club, knows what is expected and may well be worth considering as a 3rd/4th option, at least for the time that Adebayor is away.

It may well be the case that Defoe plays a blinder and we use him in every game, but equally we could see him limp out of training between now and Sunday afternoon. Clint Dempsey is the obvious back up, but what next, Bale or Sigurdsson? At least in having Obika at a managers disposal, we have a player who is a natural No9 and not one that can fill in for emergencies. Should he get given the chance and he does well, would there there be a logic to retain him as a regular squad option, at least for the rest of this season. At least that covers a position, should we not manage to sign anyone in the next two weeks.

Obika may well prove not to be good enough, but equally he may be one of any number of players that simply lacks the opportunity to prove he can shine. To date, other youngsters such as Livermore, Carroll, Falque, Mason and Townsend have all shown they are not out of their depth and even though they all are still to prove their worth as regular team picks, you wouldn't be horrified to see any one of them selected should they be required. Is Obika the next to get his chance?..




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The journalist

Writer: OxfordSpur Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Tuesday January 15 2013

Time: 9:08AM

Your Comments

once you step out over that white line you are one of 11 men representing Spurs, theres nowhere to hide and no excuses. You have to be good enough and able to handle the pressure. Has Obika ever played in front of 40,000 fans? He may have the talent but does he have the mental fortitude? It has to be an AVB call get it right and we progress a player get it wrong and the damage could be huge...
shedboy2
The answer to article title/question: NO!
TornadoYid
Proven quality is the answer!! Levy get your hand in your pocket!!!
TornadoYid
Give the boy a chance! he could save us a penny or two and be a revalation. Even if he does moderately well his sell on fee will significantly inflate. seems a no brainer to me. Get the boy on the bench
Mickeys1969
Break the bank for Damaio. Even if we pay 30m, in 2 seasons he will be worth 50m.
vicspur
I think that it is safe to say that if any of these young guys were ready, AVB would have them on the bench occasionally to blood them. The coaching staff will have all their performance measures and see them in training with the seniors so the answer seems clear.
Love totty
i think Coulibaly should also be given a chance. Adebayor is a lazy, predictable striker -get rid asap.
blackcatladder
I aso agree wholeheartedly with vicspur
blackcatladder
how easy is it to just go and get a player? Lets also assume we have 30m to spend on one player, are we then spending every penny we have on one player
oxfordspur
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that Obika is going to be our savour and save us 20m on buying anyone else, more that he could or should be a player that is promoted whilst we dont have Adebayor to call upon
oxfordspur
if Defoe gets crocked (like on Sunday when Vidic or Scholes flatten him), we'll be calling on Jenas or Bentley to play up front.When oh when are we going to buy a decent front man?Our season depends on it.False economy to sit back with crossed fingers.Levy will be letting the whole club down if he doesn't act ...SOON.
wentworth
Lovetotty I disagree with your logic. We still have a pretty large squad and whilst Ade and Defoe are playing AVB isn't going to sit Siggy and Dempsey, for sure they'll be on the bench. That doesn't leave any room for an Obika. I agree that in the absence of a new striker buy he should be on the bench and maybe get a run out against Leeds.
jvd
vicspur if we spend £30 million on him now, add to that the wages and agent fees, and sell him for £50 million in two years, we have essentially just about got our money back. That is why Levy won't pay it and I don't blame him. £18 million is about right I think. I would love to see Dzagoev at the Lane, and I think this South Korean kid we are being linked with might turn out to be a master stroke. As for Obika, there can be no harm putting him on the bench, but probably not against United. I was surprised he didn't play against Coventry. Coulibaly is far too young and we actually have better younger strikers than him such as Coulthirst.
Sebthespur
The only way players get better is to play against better opposition. Without that progression you eventually stagnate. We definitely need to inject a youngster into each game. Even if they only get 15 minutes, they immediately see the difference in speed and talent and it makes them work harder at perfecting their skills.
jvd
Johathan Obika current age 22, from 2008-2009, his had loan spells at Yoevil Town played a total of 74 games scoring 18 goals, his also had loan spells at Millwall 12 and 2; Crystal Palace 8 and 0; Peterborough 2 and 1; with the last loan being Swindon Town playing 5 and 0 goals; all games 104 and 21 goals; scoring on a regular basis in the Under 21 Spurs Reserves; He made his first team debut in the UEFA Cup on 27 November 2008 against NEC Nijmegen. He also played against Ukrainian side FC Shakhtar Donetsk in the same competition. He signed a more secure contract with the club in January 2009. What vibes does his give off in training, he has ability in the reserves, but as Shedboy2 points out, it's different ball game in the first team, lookng back at Harry Kane same type of profile in the reserves he scored goals, but the day he missed that penalty vs Hearts @ home in the europa cup, that set him back light years. Obika might be worth a look, but that is down to the reports on his progress and AVB, I can't pass judgement on it being a YES or NO.
spu 4 life
No
RealDanger
Sebthespur, but the likes of Coukthirst are not out and out strikers. we have Coulibaly, who I agree is too young and raw, Lancaster (remember him) is still injured, I believe, and Obika, who is at least banging them in for the development squad
oxfordspur
vicspur if we spend £30 million on him now, add to that the wages and agent fees, and sell him for £50 million in two years, From Sebthespur; The BUT is it might win us some trophies, secure CL football, even a prem title, the ££££'s back = the £££££'s spent and we should be looking to have 5yrs out of LEANDRO, Plus shirt sales Number 9 can't see the poblem, op striker, win win.
spu 4 life
One for th Out Tray; are in talks with Dutch side FC Twente over a return to the Netherlands for 19-year-old defender William Ekong. Steve McClaren's side appear to have won the race for the youngster's signature after Spurs decided that he was not going to make the first-team breakthrough they had hoped when he joined in 2010. The centre-half, who was born in Haarlem in the Netherlands and is a Dutch youth international, has been with Spurs for the past three years but has not yet featured with the senior squad
spu 4 life
Didnt we have the same hopes for Harry Kane..... hmmm
mattspurs1982
I think we can give Obika a chance if the need arises. But generally at 22 you kind of know, it's sad to say, he isn't quite premiership material. He scores at at U21 level probably due to our U21 team being very strong. I'm sure he's also a decent player and might suit a championship team or lower league team. I hope in the long run he proves me wrong. Dempsey is our man. A proven premiership goal scorer regularly at Fulham and from deep for us. We trust in Levy and AVB so don't get too upset if we don't waste 30million on the wrong player. Why everyone always moans and doubts The shrewd Levy I have no idea. Time and time again he brings in the right player. Yes Damaio looks great. But if he doesn't want to come now its impossible to get him now. Defoe is having a great season. Sit back and relax....we're in the hunt for champions league football and are probably favourites with the squad we have over the scum ;)
willfry
I remember Lee Barnard banging them in for the reserves, the jump from reserves to first 11 is massive not only in ability but mentally. If the coaches think he ready then the next step would be to train with the first team, if he's not even doing that then his window for becoming a regular is quickly closing, ive only seen bits of him, but from what ive seen he' not premiership class. I'd put my money on Pritchard coming through.
coys1717
Leandro, Willian; Willian, Leandro, Sneijder, Negredo, an other, Son of korea. we have had more links than a set of snow chains
spu 4 life
He can't be worse than Adebayor has been so far this season. As it seems we won't be signing a recognised striker this window, we have little option but to give Obika a run and see how he gets on. With the right support and supply he might just surprise us all.
SpuriousLife
Ade has been instrumental to our top 4 place. His work on and off the ball (minus the goals) has been vital. Watch the game, not just the goal stats
mattspurs1982
but Ox we must have c30m to spend on one player without blowing the budget, they told us we would have signed Moutinho 6mths ago if only it weren't for 3rd party/personal terms....delete which ever you think appropriate....Unless, unless of course they lied! no they wouldn't lie to us...they have been looking to spend 30m since Harry mentioned it a couple of years back.....why would we have any reason to dis-believe them????
shedboy2
Thats one of the problems though we could talk about P.Crouch doing the same job and taking half the wages. Ade needs to get motivated and start playing like he gives a damn.
coys1717
why do people think Son would be such a good buy? Have you seen him play? has he done it over a couple of seasons?
shedboy2
we could sign my son...he's a pretty useful under 11 player so plenty of potential as well....;)
shedboy2
What about Torres, if he was available for 15m would you guys think it would be a good risk? Remember Bentley 16m, Bent 16m, Carroll 35m, Henderson 20m. I wouldn't hesitate personally.
vicspur
Let's face it our striker situation is a car crash and bad management we shouldn't even be talking about Obika for the first team of a top4 side...no papering over cracks we have to spend a little....Negredo and Willian would give us planty of options? Leandro offer 21m+Gomes+4m add ons...That'd be fair...
shedboy2
Son can play anywhere across the front line. He is not a prolific number 9, but has shown potential when played in that position. He has mainly featured on the right on a 3 up top for Hamburg. Bayern are interested, as are Fiorentina. The revneue streams and the sell on potential are massive - a definate Levy-type buy.
Sebthespur
Mattspurs – Just what I was thinking. Kane was meant to be our very own Alan Shearer, from what I saw (even in the europa) I was very disappointed. He has hardly set the world alight on loan either. If Obika is banging them in for the reserves then yeah it couldn’t hurt to put on the bench but that does not change the fact that we need an established proven goal scorer. Just like the fact that ADE went to the ACON, it doesn’t change anything, we need a proven goal scorer. Right on queue Defoe is having one of his many Dry spells and we are going to struggle

Im all for giving there’s lads a chance, like I say it couldn’t hurt to give him a bit of game time in the league if we are 2-0 with 20 to go. But to rely on him to carry us through to the CL???? Not in a million years. I hate to say this guys but at 22 years old, if he was going to make it he would at least be a regular premier league squad member by now.
hudderspur
I doubt him or Kane are ready otherwise with the shortage of strikers surely they would at least have been on the bench as back up.

My gut feeling both these players are not going to make it at Spurs. They may do ok at a lower PL but not at a club fighting for CL. This is the nub of the situation at Spurs we have had good young players and may be a few years ago they would have had a chance at breaking into our first team when we were mid table team but we are not that any more so it is harder for them. Now young players to break into our team have to be a bit more special. Look at Chamberlain at Arsenal he has something a little bit more than most young players and he is still only just getting a few opportunities with the first team. Youngsters at Spurs need to have something special that can be worked with and a hunger and a level head. Personally I think Carroll is one that has something special and seems level headed but his physical statue is his problem.

We all know we need a couple of class strikers or at least one and a youngster on the bench. I just don't think Obika or Kane are ready or good enough.

I hope we get a striker but all talk from AVB suggest we are not looking to do so.
thfan
Should have been on the subs bench vs QPR...Especially given all recent events. He could have been assessed then and for the next 2 weeks, before the transfer window closes. 2 goals last week....2 goals, yesterday.......if not used now, then we know AVB....is BLIND !!...lol
82spursdebut
Damaio is a short term solution, buy him and give him a 3 year contract, if he proves to be a success by the summer then extend his contract for a further 3 years!
yiddyboy
I don't understand how Kane can be written off when he hasn't played. His loan at Norwich was supposed to give him experience but so far he's spent most of it injured. If he gets a reasonable amount of time on the pitch between now and the end of the season we can maybe draw some conclusions.
jod
I'd happily see Kane, Coulibaly and Obika used as 3rd/4th options up top. We often only use one striker, so two quality strikers and two developing youngsters could be a good balance. Ade will come into form again. Remy and Damiao are both having bad seasons - not worth big money.
SamParadise
Seems Levy / AVB see Dempsey as the back up to Defoe while Ade is away
mattspurs1982
Kane was ahead of him in the pecking order & we have an option to recall him, so if anyone's getting promoted it should be a recall for Kane. Although I'd rather we showed a bit more ambition than that to give the squad a real new year lift but we'll wait & see.
Spurs Allday
Damiao had a bad season? 24 in 43! If that's bad I'd love to see him when he's good!
Spurs Allday
No.....to Harry Kane.....he has not been on a football pitch enough, in the last 4 months. Dempsey and Defoe.......to just rely on them....RISKY !!...The season is going to get harder, now we are at the business end. We need a full productive squad, for the 2nd half of this season.
82spursdebut
Did you see the Steffen interview on Ade going to ACON; Well he said, we have JD and CD, If needed Siggy can play loan striker and we also have the option of moving Gareth into that role. So that's it in a nut shell guys.
spu 4 life
Dempsey was such a strange buy, hurtling towards 30 so not really a cheap buy at £8m. Yeah he looked good at Fulham but we have seen that time and time again. Just like Luka looked awesome at spurs, he suddenly looks very average in a talented real Madrid team. Think Demspey just doesn’t seem to have a position nailed down. Its good to be able to use players in various positions but there is a risk…as the saying goes “Jack of all trades, master of none” I don’t think we will sign anyone else this window which is just so frustrating. In all fairness, no club has really done that much in the window as of yet. I really don’t know why they don’t make the January window one week, as everything is left to the last day or two anyway! Pastore and Llorente would be awesome, but back to reality id settle for someone like negredo.
hudderspur
Obika's wiki page is an indication - been on loan too many times and has achieved very little would prefer to see Coulibaly given a bit of a run out, just to see what type of player he is
spursnoob
spu 4 life He could be bluffing. The management is very secretive now, not like Harry & his blabbermouth style. They also need to make all the right noises to the current playing staff in case we don't manage to bring someone in. Don't want to make it sound like we've no confidence in them just in case we later rely on them.
Spurs Allday
I might be wrong but i remember only two strikers making it from reserve level and into the first x1 chris jones and mark falco
spu 4 life
I thought Kane would break through but once on the pitch with the first team he didn't have the same swagger and looked a yard slower, he may yet come through but I have my doubts...
shedboy2
Spurs Allday i was hoping the same, call my bluff !!! That Leandro guy,he dont get many goals does he, lol.. wonder what he would have done in Ade's place when cesar saved it, my guess is cesar would have been picking it out of the net. along with a few others on sat. why we toss around, the world keeps moving. Arry might have hijacked Remy and M'Vila to qpr? well that msn according to the current bun newspaper.
spu 4 life
Yes, i see......Naughton, siggurdsen and dempsey...as utility players.......but then you end up with NO cohesion, as a team. Like last saturday. PLus.....we still not convinced that they are quality top 6 premiership players, at present. Also wondering how Sandro is, after saturday !?
82spursdebut
hudderspur- agree Dempsey was a strange one especially after buying potential in Gylfi. I won't be happy at all if we don't buy anyone for the first team this window. Negredo and Belhanda or just willian or just Damiao...but we have to keep going forward not wait till the summer to see more TV money come in and everyone know we are desperate for a striker...the values will keep climbing...
shedboy2
I'd make Friedel our temp striker. At least he can shoot and his mobility is about the same as Ade!

Seriously though, we may well be looking for an interim fix. But is that not what we've been doing since Blurbastrop left us?. FFS Levy get into gear!
Critical_Spur
Have to give credit to Remy & M'Vila if they do go to QPR. I know there'll be a load of cynics saying it's just about cash but lets be honest wherever those guys go they'll make a nice amount of cash. They're full French internationals, players of that caliber don't need to go there & scrap at the foot of the table but they're showing a willingness to roll their sleeves up for a battle. Not something that's usually associated with French players.
Spurs Allday
THere's one BIG reason....why ....Remy and M'Vila...are considering QPR.........MONEY !!......lol
82spursdebut
This is a call that I'm happy to leave in its entirety to AVB. Independent of this call re: Obika, we really do need to bring someone in at the forward position. Unless, of course, AVB would like to go radical and plunge into the 4-6-0 waters, which could provide a quick shock to our opponents. I'm not sure we've the right players at this point for a 4-6-0, however. lol. Obika? Personally, I haven't seen enough of the lad to have an intelligent opinion about the lad, his talents, his mental make up, to judge the thread's question. Surely AVB has his opinion on this matter, and I respect him sufficiently to let him decide. He's shown some willingness to take a chance on young players, so if he doesn't want him on the pitch with the big boys, there must be a reason.
Total knobhead
Oh no TK not the 4-6-0 again!! lol
Spurs Allday
Ha 4-6-0 lol Yeah it works when you have Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Fabregas, Silva, Mata. We would have Bale, Lennon, Sandro Dempsey Dembele & Sigurdson! Can you spot the difference? Seriously we do need some creativity in the middle, someone with a trick and that can play the nice intricate stuff. I hate to bang on about it but Dempsey & Siggy have turned out to be bloody awful signings. Not really anyone’s fault though, I mean who could predict both would start off as bad as they have. I guess that’s what you get in the bargain bin though.
hudderspur
ghulamville One way or the other Tony Fernandes will eventually get it right at QPR. He seems a lot more clued up about football than what the previous lot were with their "boutique club". He's got deep pockets, patience & a decent grasp of the game.
Spurs Allday
hudderspur Sigurdsson is still only 22 though so I wouldn't give up on him just yet. Agree totally about needing a guy with quick, tricky feet. In a tight game buying a free kick can make all the difference, well as soon as we learn how to take one that is lol
Spurs Allday
I think we got another Striking Dilemma for the Man.utd game. ...Dempsey, defoe, siggy....hmmmm.....not feeling inspired !
82spursdebut
What gets me is we fans every window seem to agree on what the team needs and for past few windows we have said striker and winger but we just don't get them. Now again this window we seem to be doing nothing about it and once again we spend all our time speculating and making suggestions about younger players stepping up and what usually happens end of the window we get disappointed. We just missed out of CL footy last season and had we invested in Jan I am sure it would have got us 3rd however, may be not with HR lost focus but this season AVB has kept us in it under a lot of stress with late arrival of ADE, then his injuries, injuries to Parker and Kabule and poor start of Siggy and Dempsey so what is the hold up with investing this time otherwise we can see the same mistake again as last January.
thfan
Harsh comparison there. Fernandes is more Joe Lewis level rather than Levy. It's not Levy's money & therefore not really his place. Any lack of ambition, investment or simple communication is down to Lewis. He's the guy at the top, Levy just runs the show for him so I'd assume he's simply doing as directed. Now a Fernandes/Levy partnership would be interesting.
Spurs Allday
The hold up in..investing (gambling)...comes down to money. Rich people prefer to say what they have, rather than what they have invested in.......example....Alan Sugar...not so long ago, said he could write a cheque for £100mill' plus...from his personal bank account...and it clear, the next day.
82spursdebut
"Oh no TK not the 4-6-0 again!! lol," Spurs Allday.

All good entertainers return to their roots, SA. (And so do the poor ones, too.) But, this does provide a way of pointing out that if we have no strikers, we will be playing something like a 4-6-0 whether it's by plan or by default. Adebayor in South Africa. Imagine Defoe injured. No forwards left on the roster and none signed. Even if we call Siggy or Dempsey a forward, they're really not. We then will be playing an impoverished form of 4-6-0 or something like it. Better to bring in some key-turning midfielders and some with real tactical skills and play a real 4-6-0.

be careful, world, I can do something with this paucity of forwards of current THFC that brings back the 4-6-0 debate in full stride.

sign another forward this window, play the unplayed Obika, or listen to me rave on about the advantages of the 4-6-0 when there is no real alternative. COYS.

Total knobhead
I think Joe Lewis..wishes to use his Money to light the fire that burns his coffin.....so that he has plenty of ashes for the sea.....lol...lol....
82spursdebut
Now there's a threat to be taken seriously. Signings in January of a forward or two, of listen to the knobhead interminably rant about the need to play a 4-6-0! Surely re-signing Saha would be preferable to that! Repeated uses of exclamation points in discussions of the 4-6-0, or Saha, or sign a real forward or two. Those are the only options.

Save our sanity, DL.

Total knobhead
thfan - the hold up is simple and it is the same hold up that we've experienced for the past 8 windows or so A DISTINCT LACK OF AMBITION FROM ENIC. Things are good enough for them as it is at the moment. If we can stay in or around the top 4 or 5 each season with little or no investment from them (where is our much promised new stadium by the way?) then they are happy and they will keep their hands out of their pockets. It's a shame but it's true. ENIC = SHORT ARMS AND DEEP POCKETS.
SpuriousLife
Here here SpuriousLife, the fact is, whatever impression and propaganda they spout to the contrary, Enic, Lewis and Levy, prefer us just to be on the fringes of the top teams. They can as you say resist demands to sign top players, they can keep wage rates down, and generally restrict investment to the minimum necessary, all of which would be more difficult if we consistently sneak into the top 4 and the CL. This is especially true given that none of the current ownership have any allegiance to THFC, and could not even loosely described of as fans (in spite of what some allege of Levy), the club is just an arm of their property portfolio, just the same as the several other football clubs they have been involved in before, incidently rarely to the advantage of the clubs, ask Glasgow Rangers supporters.
Frank
Frank +1
SpuriousLife
Spurs Allday, French players rolling up their sleeves and ready for a scrap!! I don't know mate. Maybe something to do with French President wanting to put up income tax for the super rich which would affect footballers more than most. They are putting themselves in the shop window, thats all. Oh yes, I wish we would sign M'Villa.
vicspur
No vicspur if they wanted to just escape French tax players of that standing could go anywhere & earn big money but if they choose to go to the worst team in the league I think that says a lot about their character. They could go to Newcastle for example, they'd earn good money be playing on a better stage with better players & could still sulk their way out if a better club came in.
Spurs Allday
Dan Levy has not been back on vital spurs for some time aka Raging Spur, perhaps his busy in the transfer market?
spu 4 life
Two years ago he looked the best of all of the strikers in camp. Harry then got rid of. Give him a chance. He either performs or he is gone. We know that. He knows that. COYS
peterballb
Back on the topic re. Obika. We are, or we kid ourselves we are, a club with alleged aspirations towards a top 4 place and CL qualification, and yet people flippantly suggest that we should consider this lad as a solution, no matter how short term any problem may be. Could somebody please speculate as to which of the other realistic contenders for top 4, Obika could play for. Just because those that own and run the club, display zero ambition, or desire, for the club to succeed, for Christ's sake let us not fall into the same trap. Obika is no solution of any kind to our 4 years old ongoing problem. It is not short term, and neither should the solutions be, there is only one solution it is perfectly simple, irrespective whether Adebayor is here or not, we need to invest in a PROPER striker, a bloke with a realistic chance of getting 20 PL goals/season. Unfortunately articles like this, and all the straw clutching going on, together with the excuses made, and blindly accepted for Levy failing to solve our lack of firepower problem, is only conspiring with the owner, and his lacky, from making the necessary financial commitment to solve the problem. Unfortunately it appears the current situation will prevail into a 5th year, simply due to the unwillingness of the money people to solve it, but trust me the likes of Obika are not, and never will be the answer, he simply ain't good enough, but I suspect, that if we think about it rationally, we all knew that anyway. It's a long way from Yeovil Town and Millwall to the top 4 of the PL, few bridge the gap, and at 22 if Obika was going to, he would have by now, either at Spurs, or somewhere else if he had been head hunted. He is the same as a lot of youngsters we turn out, he is "nearly man", the championship and lower leagues are full of failed Spurs youngsters, Whilst only King, O'Hara, Livermore, Rose, and Caulker have made any impression on the PL in many years.
Frank
Redknapp for all his acknowledged shortcomings, has laid to rest a couple of long standing myths that have plagued many clubs, particularly Spurs, of late. No it doesn't take weeks and weeks of posturing, and tooing and frowing, to finally sign, or fail to sign a player, or that when you fail to get a player, it can be claimed that it was because CL football is not on offer. QPR have highjacked the Remy deal from Newcastle in a matter of a couple of days, and they have succeeded in signing M'Villa and him whilst still at the bottom of the league with no pretentions to the CL. Both are full international players, and both have been feted by bigger clubs. The truth is they have got these players by offering them realistic contracts.
Frank
Well said Frank. If Levy really wanted to buy the players we need he would have done so. He just doesn't want to.
jonathan01
I'm worried about posts from Frank and SpuriousLife. If ENIC and Levy don't want to get top 4 every year then taking a gamble on AVB (the supposed new Mourinho) is a massive risk. AVB has knowledge and ambition to be successful, so if he starts achieving top 4 every year you are suggesting ENIC/Levy will sack him for putting the club in a position where ENIC do not want to be in?? Get real people. ENIC/Levy will invest if they sustain a position that guarantees extra monies from TV. Spending all your profits based on a one off is how you end up like Leeds Utd. Do you remember them, CL semi finalist????
yiddyboy
vicspur - Torres? Seriously!? No way, not for £5m. He is not good enough and will never be the player he was a few years back.
Kes80
Yidddyboy, the Leeds situation and ours bear no comparison whatsoever, the only similarity being, we are both football clubs (or pretending to be). Leeds had no money, were borrowing heavily, and avoiding paying bills to operate, Ridsdale was spending money they hadn't got, never had had, and would never have, hence it all went tits up. The same was the case at Pompey, but we are a million miles away from that, ask Forbes, they still quote us as in the top 15 richest football clubs in the world. Incidently why should Lewis/Levy want us to be successful on the pitch, will it add to the real value of the football club as a chunk of Nth London real estate (which is how we fit into their portfolio), when it comes to selling it, or it is advantage to maintain the club as a low cost, limited investment, nearly organisation, providing we can continue to convince most of the fans (for now) that we are really trying for on the pitch success, thereby maximising the profit from any future sales. Peterbalb will give you the figures on how much the club's value has grown in the last few years, none of it due to winning football matches and trophies (1 trophy in the 12 years of ENIC control), success on the pitch is unimportant, in fact is is to be avoided as it is expensive and will not enhance the sale value. Is is not rocket science for Christ's sake, when will some of us wake up and smell the coffee.
Frank
Yes Frank, Harry has suckered QPR in to paying above the odds for 2 players who were destined for other clubs above them in the table, one of whom is still in Europe. I wonder what it is that QPR offered that was better than the others? Fortunateky, Levy saved us from most of that, though don't be shocked if they have to pay out these guys and take a hugevloss to get rid of if they are relegated. Arsenal have been tracking M'Vila for years and have opted not to jump in because he is a red card waiting to happen. As for Remy, not good enough and he's in terrible form in a much less physical League. Good luck to them and Harry. If they don't succeed it will be the fans of QPR (like Bournemouth, Southampton, West Ham and Pompey). It takes brains to not get sucked in. The opposite is easy and has calamity written all over it. COYS
peterballb
Peterbalb, perhaps Tony Fernandez is prepared to take the risk.
Frank
QPR can have Remy and M'Villa. If they were good enough for a bigger team they'd be going to a bigger team. I was never excited by either when we were linked to them.
Kes80
Frank - success increases profile, increases support, increases income. Look at Man U's turnover which has been built from success and survived owners that want to rape the club for as much money as they can (not like the free bank rolling owners of Chelski and Man City.) Success does increase income, it's balancing that against expenditure that is the key.
Kes80
And that's fine Frank. If he winds up in the Championship next year and can't offload a bloated squad, his loss. If he decides to get rid of his plaything because it is burning a hole in his wallet, it's the fans that lose. Either way, in my books, it's an unnecessary and imprudent risk because even staying up won't cover their losses. COYS
peterballb
so is Keane going to be our short term solution?
shedboy2
lol Peter, funniest post of the day!! your first post
Ossie
Frank, it is nonsense to suggest that they want to remain on the fringes of the top 4. 7 years ago it would have been that we were happy to be on level with Villa and Everton and 5 years further back to be just a mid-table team. Bollox. IMO we had the third best squad in the PL the past two seasons. We could have done better. Heck, in both years in January we were talking about challenging for the title. When was the last time that was a legitimate discussion? Almost 25 years Frank. We, despite all of the changes and the loss of 3 of our 4 most influential players, we are fourth and are in the battle for third. Levy and Lewis want to succeed. They just don't believe in paying above the odds and living beyond our means. If Harry had had his way, Neville, Ferdinand, Forlan and a few more superstars would be on our books. Modric would still be gone, King still retired and VDV would be giving his best for the 60 minutes or so he could manage. Our starting XI would be breaking down and we'd be preparing for the yearly slide.

I like the way things are. Could be better. Could be a darned side worse. COYS
peterballb
Kes80, I never mentioned turnover, I was talking value, the sales value of the club. Peterbalb put up some figures recently re the rise in the sales value of THFC since the ENIC acquisition, and the figures are startling, and have not been achieved by on the pitch success as they haven't achieved any (1 Carling Cup success in 12 years). In fact it is more likely to have been achieved by avoiding on the pitch success, keeping expenditure and internal investment in players, wages etc. down. From the fan's point of view does it matter to them if the club's sale value has rocketed, of course it doesn't unless they are also shareholders, but if in fact if this increase in value is achieved at the expense of on the pitch investment, and success, they have been disadvantaged.
Frank
Sorry Peterbalb I have to say I'll agree to disagree with you on the question of the ambition, determination, desire, and bottle of Lewis (who probably couldn't recite the names of the first team anyway), and the alleged fan Levy (excuse the giggle), have for THFC to be successful, why should they, the club's sale value, their primary interest, have according to your figures rocketed, I simply don't believe in their ambition, or accept it, and their trophy haul whilst in control at Spurs bears this out. I could accept it, if they were honest and admitted their true motives, but they carry on with their propaganda of striving for success, whilst 8 managers later, we are still trophy less, in spite of the vast wealth under their control. For crying out aloud we have gone 4 years without a functioning strike force, 8 windows in which to sort it out, we sell our best players as the lucrative opportunities arise, without replacing them, and you say they want to succeed, they do, at making money, nothing else.
Frank
Vincent Kompany's red card v Arsenal has been rescinded, good, a triumph for common sense, and the preserving of at least some proper tackles, and physical contact, in what is, or should be, a man's game. We should now see, but of course won't see, the referee Mike Dean stood down this week for his error, it's about time referees were accountable for poor decisions, some of which often affect results.
Frank
Frank, I listed all of the winners of titles over the past 26 years (Titles, FA Cup and League Cup). Spurs were as successful as any not named United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool. The "former big four" have won far and away the most competitions because they were the only squads deep enough to give it the ol college try. That's fact Frank. Sure, 1 title, a final and a few semis is not all that great, but then it's better than any but for the "former big four" and City. All would agree that City and Chelsea have bought their trophies and we all agree our owner is not that sort of hep cat, so live within our means we shall.

Our improved table position, starting with Jol, to Ramos, Harry and now AVB has seen our exposure increased immensely. That is all on the back of success. Being in Europe every year, is success. It's not a title, but it is exposure. Our sponsorships and kit makers are emonstrating how that has all changed. OK, we don't get ManU, Liverpool or RM money, but we are doing well. In fact, the increase of our market value from 2007 to now is dwarfed only by United. If you believe any of that would have happened if we had remained mid-table, you are not being honest. Further, if the monies from CL were coming in more years than not, we'd also be worth more. That is in both Lewis and Levy's interests so long as we do it without spending beyond our means. There is a plan in place. There is also an owner and a Director (who is also the second largest shareholder) who believe in living within our means. Profits aren't pocketed, they are used to cover off debts on other years. Our salaries have increased, on a percentage basis, more than any of the other PL teams over the past 3-5 years. We are paying to keep players. Bale is on excellent wages. Modric was offered the same but refused. We are beating Liverpool and Arsenal to signatures. These are all clear signs we are competing with the top clubs. We have to keep building. Now we need titles and to be in the CL. It's the next step and one we can do because we have a squad that is deep enough and a manager who manages. Yes Frank, it could be better. I'd have signed Castaignos, Arnautovic and Perisic three years ago when I said. I'd have also signed Falcao back then when hewas on for 15M or so, just a little less than Dzeko and Suarez. We didn't. A lot, IMO, had to do with the man in charge. These were players Harry didn't want. He wanted Cole, Neville, Forlan, Ferdinand and a lot more used to be quality players, all asking for big money. Levy said no. I am happy he did and sad that Harry had no ideas or time for youth. COYS
peterballb
Frank - what do you mean we haven't achieved more now than before ENIC came over? Success does not just mean trophies. If that were the case then virtually no one has it. There are degrees of success, winning trophies is the top end of the scale. We consistently finish the league much higher each season now than before. We win more matches than before. This is on the pitch success and I think this it is no coincidence that our value has risen at the same time as our league position. And whether you talk turnover, profit or club market value my example of Man U still holds true. As of April last yaer (the most recent data I could find) they were the highest valued football club in the world. Why? Because of the their on the pitch success. You think they'd be worth what they are if they were mid table fodder?
Kes80
The last 21 years has all been about the TV money...the big4 are the big4 because they were best placed to take the cash and get the players...Blackburn showed that to be true by the excellent far superior manager 'King Kenny' beating Sir Alex (Not really) but only because of Walker's money...citeh and Chelski have done us a favour by crashing the party. We spent big in fact just after the time we'd spent the 4th highest amount in the PL we finished 4th! trouble is we stopped spending two years ago...Why? will we now regress? I think it cost us a CL place last year....
shedboy2
Shedboy, CL was lost the past two seasons because the team was brnt out and went in to relegation form for the better part of two months. That's fact. Sure, adding players would have been great, but just like now, the coach, the scouts and Levy have to all be in for it. If the Manager wants Forlan, the scouts want Aguero and Levy wants Suarez, what to do? Buy who the scouts want and overpay (for us)? Buy who the coach wants and have a past his prime player that you have to pay over the odds on Transfer Fee and wages? Or give the coach a player he doesn't want? Well, they chose the fourth option, find someone you can all agree on. Saha. COYS
peterballb
Has anyone considered what a mess we'd be in if we'd have signed Cole, Forlan, Neville and Ferdinand to the deals they all wanted? COYS
peterballb
f we buy a striker now a little over the odds, and that striker makes a 3 point difference at the end of the season then the potential 30m+ CL money makes it look like a very smart move. Our inability to secure a striker in previous windows after reportedly offering 35m for Rossi a few seasons ago has cost us CL football for the last 2 seasons. How can this not make economic sense to anyone?? If we had paid 30m for a striker 2 years ago, we would have made more than double that in CL money since then not to mention the profile of the club going up and its value increasing!!!
vicspur
ok vicspur, but here's the rub, 35M for Rossi plus 5M per season on a 5 year deal (bad example of player becase he's been crocked). It'sa 60M investment. Just one player. So really, we'd need to get CL twice and get out of the group stages both times to recoup that money. I hearwhat you are saying but would submit that those numbers cannot be justified. Rossi, as an example is now worth about 15M so that represents a would be 20M loss, if you can move his wages. Negredo at 13-15M makes more sense. One would expect in 3 or 4 years he could be moved for about 10M and his salary would be one some clubs could pay. Whomever comes in (and I agree, there are players out there always) need to balance the books, short and long-term. CL means that salaries go up and if that is the case, monies from CL will cover off higher wages. Son, Mitroglou, Castaignos, Doumbia, Willian, Benat are names that should be considered. Willian at 20M and over 100k/week is steep. I'd rather us sign Son and Dzagoev and add Benat to pull the strings, or, if the plan is to use Holtby there next year, then get Schneijder on loan, but not for the reputed 160knet/week that he is reputed to be demanding. COYS
peterballb
Kes80, I'll tell you what I mean, the lowest trophy winning performance of any regime at Spurs for 50 years. In a way, although getting old is a pain, I feel sorry for the younger fans at Spurs, they have had nothing to celebrate. I am fortunate to have had championships, League and Cup double, the first ever European Trophy by an English club, several UEFA Cups, and FA Cups, and perhaps the most pleasing of all being accused by Arsenal fans on the odd visit to Highbury of "only coming down here to take the pi$$", which of course was true. It breaks my heart to see where they are now i.e. new stadium, 14 successive CL seasons, 12 of them during the ENIC reign. Where is our new stadium, how many CL seasons have we had, and they didn't have a multi-billionaire behind them, and several on the board, cheers ENIC, you are succeeding.
Frank
'Shedboy, CL was lost the past two seasons because the team was brnt out and went in to relegation form for the better part of two months. That's fact' - urgh no, that's your opinion. Had we signed a decent striker we'd have secured CL - that's a fact...see how opinion and fact can be confused..;) As to your explanation of our decision making by committee that is a problem, an excuse, not a reason to deny the team the talent that is needed.
shedboy2
peter you seem to have an obsession with salaries lately....we still have our structure right? if so we will only offer what is affordable but we do have to make sure we can move them so 5 year contracts should only be for the young and proven players. And don't forget that players are assets and so depreciate and are tax deductable...as for balancing the books it's bad business to balance them both short and long term again we do not want to show a profit very often...
shedboy2
Shedboy, we had VDV and Adebayor playing game in and game out. We didn't need a striker. We needed roattion and practice. We missed out on CL last season by one converted corner or free kick. That's where we missed out. Lack of coaching. Leave the smoke and mirrors to Harry. COYS
peterballb
Well, if being awash in debt is a good business strtegy, Pompey and others should be lauded for their success. Debt, as with the training facility and soon to be with the stadium is acceptable so long as it is manageable. Debt that will be repaid, is ok, in any business model. What banks don't like is to see unmanageable debt. PSG cannot possibly, in 10 years repay what they have spent this year based on revenues from the club. This is a person throwing their own money down the toilet. Banks don't care because it is not their concern. It's not their money. When that owner bores and decides to cut his losses, only the club loses.

As for moving players, you don't need to move them on. Players, like King can play their entire careers here and you thus depreciate the "asset". It's the assets that you don't want to keep but have to that stop you (when you are a book balancing club) from competing because they eat away at your disposable income. All players in the squad need to be able to be moved, if need be and not at a major loss. Other than Bentley, I don't think there are any players now in the squad that will be unlikely to be moveable, if need be. Let's say Moutinho was signed today. Hudd clearly has to go. Well if wages were not moveable and he'd been brought in over the odds, we'd be stuck with him. He was bought young and is on wages that can be moved. How much did City lose on Adebayor? Huge amounts. He played one season for them. They have subsiized his ridiculous, over-the-top wages for the other four years. Most don't think they got 175k/week value the year he played. He was sold at a loss of 20M and they paid a further 20M to have him play for other teams. City don't care about 40M in wasted funds. We have to. COYS
peterballb
Shedboy, Levy got guys Jol didn't want. That was a mistake. Since then he has allowed the coaches to decide. If Suarez don't fit Grand ol Harry, then off to liverpool with him. Three consecutive windows Harry stood there and stated that what was out there was not better than what we had. You are welcome to go back and look at the quotes. He insisted on not selling Gio, Kranjcar, Pav, Corluka et al. Didn't want them to play, just didn't want to play them. Wanted Pletikosa on loan when a permanent deal didn't work out. Not to play him, but to have him. He wanted Neville, Forlan, Cole, Ferdinand et al. Thankfully, Levy sussed that out as a really bad idea. We had to pay Crouch 4M to go. Keane wouldn't go. Burnt out team is "fact". Read the quotes by Gallas, Parker, Modric, Bale stating they are knackered. Harry played them anyway. COYS
peterballb
Peter, I know Rossi was a bad example, but I only used him because we supposedly bid 35m for him. He is not worth that. Damaio, however is. Yes, over 3 years perhaps cost 50-60m, if you factor that cost into the next 3 years it is 20m a year. Considering we have the money from player sales sitting pretty, and a young squad, he could be the difference that takes us to the next level. He has youth on his side, in 4 years, he will be 26, worth the same as Bale now, and a huge asset. Plus if he help elevate the team to a trophy or two, that 20m a year is very well spent. Considering the size of the squad we had in the last 4-5 years and paying Bentley 65k a year for doing nothing, it is a very calculated risk. In fact, there is no way we would lose money unless he turns into another mirandinho( those who remember him will know..lol). Losing gallas and bentleys wages will make no difference to our squad and pay for Damaio. Knowing Levy he will pay the transfer at 100 a month for the next 23 years. In fact my opinion doesnt only hold for Damaio, but is there a striker in world football who we could possibly sign who has his talent and age on his side? Would love Llorente on a free, he would be perfect.
vicspur
VicSpur, Leandro, Moutinho, Willian all remain on the radar. If deals can be done that fit within the "Plan", they will be done. The Plan is not one that cannot be massaged though. I doubt Holtby was part of te plan. Now he is. Fryers always was.

What annoys me is the constant suggestion that we just sign "whomever". If they don't fit in with AVB's plans and within the structure, they will not be coming. Under Harry, you couldn't really buy youth for the first team. He wanted nothing to do with that. Keane, Defoe, Crouch, Ade, VDV, Gudjohnsson, Saha andhis repeated desire to get Forlan. It's what he wanted. Bags of experience. All well and good, but rarely do those players come on affordable wages. It's why Keane and Crouch were huge challenges to move. People must realize, we are paying salaries at the Level of Liverpool, Arsenal now. You can't just move those salaries because very few teams will pay them. Just like we can't pay what Chelsea and City pay. Even United can't pay what Chelsea and City pay, or rather, I should say they won't. Rooney, they paid way over the odds in salary, but then he does generate sales of merchandise. Those players are few and far between. Seeing RM's issues, I was thinking, in a moment of utter stupidity, what it would take to get and pay Ronaldo. Whatever amount it is would be made back on sales of merchandise. I think, CL might well be a lock as well. But CL money ain't going to be enough. It's merchandise that could make that viable, or not. Signing Son and Mitroglou, seems to me to be a much safer, if clearly more restrained , marketing strategy, while addressing needs. Mitroglou, at 3M Euros tops, is an absolute steal. Guidetti at 7M is a great bit of business. Castaignos (my suggestion for 5 windows now) would cost about 5M. Bale could be a huge merchandise seller too. First he must start getting his free kicks and corners to the level of Beckham. Then and only then, will he be a commodity.

Let's be honest here, a 40M investment in players at about 100k/week or less is affordable, because CL, higher table position and titles can pay it all out. Negredo, Benat and Son would all fit within those parameters. Willian at 14M would be nice. 20M, I'm not so sure. 26M for Moutinho seems grossly inflated (wouldn't 23M for Fellaini be better?). Use the savings on Negredo vs Leandro to go and pinch Zaha. These are all plans I could accept, understanding that each and every one of them could fail. It's not the time to go all in, but we certainly have to keep meeting the ante. COYS
peterballb
Peter, agree with everything you just said, and thats what I have been trying to explain why Damaio is the player that fits the model perfectly. What we dont agree with is the transfer fee, but we have to pay over the odds for class. There are strikers who would cost less and could be worth a chance. Huntelaar supposedly 12.5m release clause, would be a great short term buy, Llorente would even better. I have said before that I would love Fellaini. A midfield of Sandro,Fellaini and Dembele would be monstrous.
vicspur
Any debate about ENIC is bound to divide opinion on here. I have my own particular view as does everyone else. The way I see it is that over the past 6 year or so ENIC have slowly (I emphasise slowly) moved us from mid-table performers to being regulars on the fringes of the top 4. At the same time this has added vast amounts to the value of our club and its exposure across the world. We've been unfortunate in previous years that the might of United, Arsenal, then Chelsea and more recently City resulted in us always just missing out. However over the past couple of years we've got a little stronger whilst our main competitors for the top 4 have a got bit weaker. This has opened up a fantastic opportunity for us to finally take the next step and establish ourselves as a consistent top 4 team. To do so requires ENIC to invest wisely and reasonably significantly now. However for some unfathomable reason they keep getting cold feet. That is what sparks such constant and vigorous debate about our beloved owners. We've finally got to the edge of the cliff but suddenly seem to lack the courage and conviction to take that leap of faith. That is what divides us as supporters. There are those of us who think it is pointless to work so hard and so long to get to the edge to then not have the courage to jump, flap our wings and fly. There are then those that prefer to err on the side of caution and watch those around us jumping with some flying and of course some falling. It depends if you believe it is better to try and fail rather than to fail to try. Carpe diem! COYS!
SpuriousLife
Fair enough Spurious Life. The issue really becomes, what is reasonably affordable and more important, sustainable. I am of the impression that Levy has hired AVB for the long-term and that they are sticking to "The Plan". Not rigourously, as the signing of Holtby suggests, and not without a Plan B, as Dempsey shows (he was not bought, just because). I believe we are talking to Negredo's people and I don't doubt that we knew William would be available (seems AVB's quotes had a little teeth to them). I also believe we are still in for Leandro and would happily take Moutinho. I also believe that if the numbers are beyond our valuations or salary willingness, Plan B will be the route. It has to be. What annoys me is that Falcao was available three years ago, when he Suarez and Dzeko were being touted as the next wave. Everyone kept mentioning 20M for Dzeko and Suarez while Falcao was always a discounted version. Instead, we were contented with Keane, Defoe and Crouch and wouldn't move Pav. I still firmly believe that under Harry, there was no long-term plan. It was always about the here and now. The talent we had was never going to get relegated. Maybe, if Harry had looked long-term instead, he would have only risen to 12th in the table, but could have avoided Defoe, and worse still allowed Liverpool out of a really awful deal for Keane. I could have even lived with these decisions if we'd also signed a few even younger guns lik Arnautovic, Perisic and Castaignos, who though just kids, all were showing huge upside potential. It's why I like a DOF. They have to think short-term and long-term. manager's natural tendency is to look to the here and now. Fair enough as they may be out of work tomorrow. Owners (not plaything owners) tend to look at long-term value and appreciation. It's all about growing the business. The DOF has to work both sides of that equation. I agree. We should spend. I also know it will not be over the odds and they will not settle for players that aren't an improvement. COYS
peterballb
Peterbalb, it appears to me that in your considered opinion everything that goes right at Spurs is down to the collective genius of messrs Levy and Lewis, whilst anything that goes wrong, an there is plenty, is down to the actions or omissions of some third party, currently in the frame as popular choice of this 3rd party is Harry Redknapp. I never see any mention of the major failings during their tenure i.e. the hiring and firing of 8 managers during their tenure, especially the way in which Jol was ditched, which was totally unethical, the blunder in stalking and recruiting One Day Ramos, all of this at considerable cost, and giving rise to serious lack of continuity, ue to this revolving door situation, there has been no co-ordinated squa building and ddevelopment policy, which plan was that A or B, The failure, after identifying an increase in revenue generation as a priority, very early in the piece, to do nothing about it, whilst the cost of borrowing at the time was "cheap as chips", while standing by and watching our near neighbors build a 60,000 capacity stadium, indeed 12 years on and counting, we still don't have a brick laid, and the latest estimated finish date is 2018, no doubt subject to regular revue and extension, so Christ only knows when it will finally get built. How much further behind will we be by then, it could be that the current 4 years wait for a decent striker will become 10-15 years, whilst the chorus of austerity, and pleas of poverty, gain momentum. Harry Redknapp has been a very convenient scape goat for Levy and his disciples, to paper over the cock ups he has made since appointing himself as DOF, and transfer supremo, with little success. I really do think it is a useful comparison to make when judging ENIC, to look at the progress made at Arsenal in the same period as they have muddled along at Spurs. What is it 14 successive CL seasons, plus PL titles and FA Cup wins, in spite of selling their best players on a regular basis, but by the making of astute signings along the way, and consistently backing their manager, they have maintained their top 4 position. We on the other hand have during the same period, qualified once for the CL, incidentally getting into the last 8, very creditably, but failing to build on it with player acquisitions, and won 1 Carling Cup, is that plan A working as intended. Suddenly we recruit our 8th manager and come up with this clear vision of the future, and a long term plan. Where was the long term planning in the last 12 years?
Frank
"d" key playing silly buggers, sorry for the typos.
Frank
Frank 1 of ur best ever posts even if it's another Levy/ENIC rant!!!!!!
Ossie
 

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