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ENIC. Marmite?

This is a simple and short article but one that is bound to polarise opinion on Vital Spurs.

My question is this: If ENIC don't invest in bringing in any quality new players (perhaps a striker and/or creative, attacking midfielder) in this January transfer window does this prove that ENIC's ambitions for our club are not so much success on the pitch as a football team but more based around successfully increasing the value of the balance sheet and any possible sell on value of the club?

Please remember that this is a site for Spurs fans - so overall we all support our great club. Our opinions can differ but we should not use this forum to abuse individual members if their views differ from ours. COYS.

Written by SpuriousLife




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The journalist

Writer: SpuriousLife Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Monday January 21 2013

Time: 11:43AM

Your Comments

love it
spurster
sorry hate it
spurster
looks like Holtby on the way as our lock picker. Just leaves a striker then.
Wilts Spurs
We've had continuous improvement under ENIC and you cannot say they haven't been prepared to spend money, but they cannot be expected to throw the sort of money around that City and Chelsea have. I've got faith in this board to bring us success, but not necessarily immediate success.
ParkLane67
Not marmite, i neither love or hate. on balance we have improved in terms of league position, quality of players and financial stability since they arrived. Therefore after understanding those facts i find it difficult to understand how anybody could hate or even dislike them? Like many supporters i always want more and hope they will just go a little further and really drive the new stadium forward somewhat faster now all the planning problems seem to have been by passed.
tophobunty
I strongly disagree with that sentiment. ENIC have invested heavily. They recouped a lot of money in the summer and re-invested it. Unlike certain other clubs where the money disappears. They have said all the long that ideally the squad should service itself. Ours does. This is the ideal scenario. Even Chelsea have tried (somewhat unsuccessfully) to run more businesslike, and even Man City did not buy any superstars in the summer....Scott Sinclair? The fact that we have steadily progressed from top four dreamers to top four achievers under ENIC, they have succeeded. We have now changed the manager, and we need to be careful . Just throwing more money at it will not help. It is a long term plan, and we should save the money for the summer when we know (after the dust settles on a long hard season) what and who we really need. Yes, I agree that we are deficient in the striker dept right now. I would sign a young Benteke-like striker, that could do a job now, and could become our future. Any big signings should wait. I am happy with the job that ENIC are doing, because it was horrible before they arrived.
TonyRich
So we still only need to sign one player this window a very good striker. Its a big ask and a big risk Say we sign Leandro (yes I know we;ve all moved on!) will it take him as long as Sandro to settle into the pace of the prem and the style of the team. Can we afford to drop 25million on a player and then wait eighteen months from them to get upto speed? More to the point would our fans give the player the requiste time to get up to speed before callling for him to be sold, manager sacked and Levy/ENIC out?
Slurms McKenzie
Nice pic to go with the article. The bloke behind Levy seems to be rubbing some marmite into Levy's head!

On topic. I think Levy will stick to his word re, moving in different direction and we will get ONE of our wishes granted this window. I am sure he has seen enough of AVB's work to have been convinced. COYS!
Critical_Spur
Schalke buying Michael Bastos for 5m from Lyon. Hopefully, Holtby on the way to us now. Other rumored players are Diame & Negredo. Levy has to spend no question about it. If he can get Diame (4m), Holtby (2m) & Negredo 10m that would beawesome business. But as usual question is, will he?
sydqcb5
I still think that they love blowing smoke up our butts. What happened to the 20 million we bid on Moutinho, is it in the same place that 30 million we were going to use a few windows back for a striker. Whatever happened to that striker. Will love them if they back up AVB. Some news or development on the new stadium would be nice too. If they can not deliver this then they need to sell up and let someone who is capable of delivering in.
nothappyharry
We just need 2 players to guarantee top 4, a striker (michu) and a creative midfielder, (now that he.s grown up how about taarabt) . Neither player would break the bank .Enic just need to go the extra mile
whitehartmart
slurms very good point........whitehart, good call ref taarabt
tophobunty
I think this should be Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis not ENIC. ENIC are a company, the money behind ENIC is Bahamas Jo. If you look at ENIC's company accounts, I very much doubt you will see 100m in cash. They are an investment company. They don't invest huge sums of money, they buy cheap spend as little as possible and sell high. Look at the money spent since ENIC took over Spurs and you will see it has all come from the clubs income and future income and debt. They have done a superb job in managing the club financially, because that is what Jo Lewis is brilliant at. Make no mistake, one day SPurs will be sold at a HUGE profit. That is why they de-listed the company. So the question should be, If Jo Lewis and Daniel Levy don't invest.
vicspur
syd that would improve us as will the return of kaboul
tophobunty
The fact is, we have needed a striker since Berba left. We have made no with cheap short term options, i think the ADE deal summed that one up. Whilst i understand that we need to be very carefull who we sign up front, the fact is we do need someone in. We have such a good opurtunity to push on now and have an even better seciond half of the season, i just hope AVB gets the tools he was promised. Rumblings are already coming out that Levy has moved the goalposts RE agreed transfer targets.
hudderspur
Surely, everybody has seen enough horror stories (i.e. the leeds, portsmouths of the world) to know that you have to build for the long term not the short term. Understanding that, you realize that even missing out on the top 4 (which I doubt will happen, regardless of january signings) isn't the end of the world if we continue to be at least in the mix in the business side of the table...It's obvious the next real step is getting the stadium (PAYING for the stadium even after it has been built) and then we can take the next major transition which is to challenge for the PL title year in year out. On a similar, but somewhat different topic, you just have to realize how lucky we are to get shot of Redknapp. Our squad is clearly not as talented this year as it had been with the loss of Modders, yet we are doing just as well. If we didn't have Levy and a sensible board we would have continued signing the Crouch and Keane's of the world along with a bunch of Joe Cole's. You only have to look at the massive wages Harry convinced Fernandes to pay for Remy and the other players that team are linked with to understand how lucky we are Redknapp didn't run our team into the ground. If QPR goes down with the money they are going to spend in this window, they might not come back up for awhile. Point of this, other than to talk about Redknapp being a right *****, is that the board and Levy protected our long term health from Harry, patience is needed.
laughter7
It's a case of head and heart! My head tells me acknowledge the improvement -that we've made great progress on the pitch these last few years- yesterday's game being a prime example - Man U know that they were lucky to get a point , penalty claim and all!(br)My heart screams that now is the time to take the plunge and go for it! Bugger financial prudence, get the key positions sorted with some quality players - what's needed is obvious!(br)That's just me.....my heart has always got me into trouble!
Durbanspur
Feel good Tottenham article is poring in - another one in Daily Fail - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2265538/Tottenham-equaliser-Manchester-United-help-Andre-Villas-Boas.html
sydqcb5
Hudderspur you seem to be the only one rumbling that lline about shifted goalposts?
Slurms McKenzie
Not to loose once against United could have been fluke or luck. But not to loose 2 games against United means talent, hardwork, patience & belief.

Just to think about it - this is league leaders we are talking about who had got 28 pts from 30 pts before Spurs game. To take 4 pts from them in a season means to me that we are not far off from challenging them. To me, we are 3 solid signings from challendging them. Had we not conceded goals between 85 & 90min, we would have been in 2nd spot. But then this football, nothing is perfect and things will go wrong. But if we have the extra 3 players, you never know.
To me, its simple. If Levy &ENIC goes thaqt extra step., we are not far off from a trophy or even league title.
sydqcb5
Well that attempt at paragraphs went well!
Durbanspur
Slurms - Was something i read online last night, must admit i cant find the source today so cant really say about the quality of the source, could have been a usual twitter BS story. Are you saying you wouldnt put it past Levy? Im not going to change my opinion that i think Levy & co are scared to get to the next level. I also wont change my opinion that a lot of fans still see us as a top 10 club who shouldnt be dreaming of CL football. To compare our situation to that of Pompey / Leeds is just silly. No one is suggesting risk everything and spend 100m on players. The majority are just asking for a bit of class to replace the ones who we have flogged for profit.
hudderspur
Now that Ekotto is back drop Walker and move Naughton to right back. Walker is costing us a lot of goals with his bad positioning. Walker needs awake up call
whitehartmart
I say, be careful what you wish for. There are plenty of sharks out there who could completely ruin our club. Good for ENIC if they have massively improved our value without saddling us with huge debts or liabilities. We might not be so lucky if they sell to a Glasereque family or dodgy billionaire.
Love totty
Can I just say I thought the performance of the lads yesterday was absolutely top class. Personally I think we deserved all 3 points and given the chances we created maybe should have took all 3. I think the fact that we did create those chances and failed to convert them underlines our need for a top CF. Apart from that I really couldnt be happier with the way the team played yesterday. Fergie had his usual moan the red-nosed to$$er.
TornadoYid
vicspur - If they are using future debt, how could they possibly sell the club for a huge profit? There is no way they could hide the debt. Look at Everton. No one wants to buy, despite it being a great club. They have invested loads. You are only comparing us to sugar daddy clubs like Chelsea/Man C who obviously spend more OR you are comparing us to Man U/Liverpool/Arsenal who have much higher revenue than us - so they obviously CAN spend more than us. If you compare us to anyone else, we out spend them all - whilst staying out of debt. Besides, despite Liverpool's revenue, they were forced to cut down heavily on their spending on players. Mainly because they have found no improvement as a result. I really do not see why people think that success is always a proportional function of spending more. It can be sometimes, but only so much. Even that we have already spend 60m or so since last season, perhaps we should not go overboard this season...
TonyRich
Agree with WhitHartMart - Walker has been out of form all season, and Naughton playing well, Switch Kyles now Benny is back. Regarding the article - while I get incredibly frustrated with our lack of striker, I am 100% behind Levy, Lewis, ENIC, whoever it is that calls the shots. The squad is improving all the time, and it is being done in such a way whereby the long term future of or great club is not at risk. My Granddad used to take me to the Lane, as did my Dad, and one day, I'd love to be able to take my boy to the Lane (or whatever its called in 20 odd years)! Winning the league or getting in the champions league again would be great, I'd love it, but I would not sacrifice the clubs future for it, never. Fully behind the current board AND AVB....COYS
Klinsmann_18
We need a forward. Simple as that. AvB is over performing with the team we have, but can he manage it all season? If he doesn't I won't be blaming him.
Tottenham Hotcore
According to Yahoo, we had 33 attempts on goal to Utd 7, ours 25 on target to Utd 5. They scored 1 goal so did we!!!! My conclusion is we need a competent striker who can move the onion bag instead of the goal keeper, a defender or the woodwork. Has somebody mentioned this need before??????????????
longtimespur
The only shame in my mind is that I can read the 11/12 financial report. I could clearly see what was going on when reading the previous 2 years reports but as we delisted we as fans lost the visibility.
<>br>Under Harry the wage bill went up very significantly and the squad proliferated to an unmanageable level. The money that we should have had as transfer fees was being haemorrhaged against high earners that were having no significant impact to the 1st team. However, Harry had more to spend than any other manager in our history but he wasted it on quantity and not quality. That's why we saw 13 squad players leave in the summer and only 6 join. The sad facts are that without Champs League our expenses was just starting to overtake our turnover. We were also investing in land and property to support the bigger picture plan.

So what does that mean? Can we now spend again. The simple answer is yes, but with conditions. You have to get into how football finances work. Players are intangible fixed assets who amortise over the life of the contract. Therefore if Levy saw a 23 year old (e.g. Damaio) who cost us a lot AND was willing to signing a 5 year contract AND had a resale value at the end then he would commit to it.

I personally believe we will spend but there is still a bit of housekeeping to do first. Their names are Gomes, Jenas, Bentley etc and we have to now work within the confines of the 25 man squad rule if we are to optimise. We also have 6 players who would need to be registered next season within the 25 man squad rule - Caulker, Hall, Smith, Parrett, Mason, Townsend. Even if AVB selects one of those 6 he needs to create space.

Have faith !!!
muttley
As for the article, well I am really pleased we have somebody in charge who understands finance but being a Spurs fan for over 50 years, I'm forever an optimist and hope ENIC allows AVB some cash to spend know. I don't mean 25-30 mill on one player but someone who has the ability to find the net, AKA a Michu or the ilk. What happened to scouts? I know our best one left for Newcastle but surely there's somebody @ Hotspur Way who can find one!!!!
longtimespur
Hudders - comparing us to Pompey IS silly, but not the comparison with Leeds. They did what we did... They progressively got better, and then became a CL side. They then went nuts and tried to do something that wasn't sustainable. Look at them now. I will not believe that that would happen to us, but I can believe that an ill-advised gamble could leave us in a situation that could set us back several years. Look at Villa. Villla were knocking on the door of top four (back when the big four WERE a permanent fixture), and they overstretched themselves too. Their manager got frustrated that the club could no longer back him up, and he left. Then they ended up with McLeish and nearly died of boredom...whilst nearly going down. Now they are still not out of the woods yet...despite having quality players there. Villa's problem? An unsustainable wage bill. It was the same as ours, despite having a far smaller revenue stream. It slowly killed them. We have to stay sustainable. It really is the key to where we are now. We just need to be a little more patient.... The stadium WILL come!
TonyRich
longtime, you should copyright that unique idea mate. Why not take it on dragons den you might cop off with Debra Hardon.
tophobunty
Should the question not be, should Spurs be run as a business or should it be a billionaires plaything? COYS
peterballb
We have not spent loads in recent years. Last year there was a league table published showing NETT spend on players in the previous 5 years, we were in 14th place out of the 20 clubs in the PL, a position that was no doubt improved after last summer's window, in which we sold: Corluka, Kranjcar, GDS, Pavyluchenco, Modric and VDV, and brought in Lloris, Vertonghen, Dembele, Sigurdson, Dempsey, and still ended up making a profit of some 10M, as we do in almost every window, as this "league table" proves, so please we shouldn't bandy figures about alleging 50M spends when they are not true. The same goes for the re-signing of our re-posessions Defoe and Kaboul from Portsmouth and Keane from Liverpool at the start of the HR era.
Frank
Am I listening to Spurs fans or are all these posts made by Daniel Levy under pseudonyms... At the very best we're reading the ramblings of ENIC apologists. No-one is denying an improvement in the club... no-one (I know of) is not thrilled that we re financially prudent and efficient... I don't know one Spurs fan who wants to be a City or a Chavski... but how can you deny the need for a striker (after 4 years of crying out for one) or say we have no funds after a combined +/- 75'000'000 in sales between Berba, Modric & VdV alone. This is ridiculous
Cape Town Spurs
no peterb, the questions should be, can a decent striker improve the team, if yes, how do we get one. anything else is apologist BS
Cape Town Spurs
I think it is about balance. I am happy with ENIC and our progress, however, like many, am increasingly frustrated about that next 'significant' step. They have invested and worked so hard, but clearly the next step is a risk, but one worth taking i.e. invest in a striker. The mistrust comes from reports of bidding 30 million for Aguero, 20 million for Moutinho etc - yet the reality is transfer window profit. EVERY window we talk of a striker and in fairness (the balance) they invested in ADe. Therefore, to do so again is maybe a little too risky for them - however, they should take a risk on A striker, even if sadly not the finished & proven, world class striker we need now. Certainly not a Saha type buy, but clearly the scouting network should be picking up the Michu's, Lukaku's, Ba's etc BEFORE they are out of our reach. I am frustrated but accept why Falcao will not be coming, or why RVP was never considered etc. However, there is no excuse for us not picking up a prospect who can come in now (and clearly more advanced than the other prospects - couillibaly etc). Goals can make a massive difference to this team - a step too far ? We all hope not.................... COYS
Windlespur
btw _ the fact that the ADE signing has clearly not worked (yet at least) is why we are yet again talking about this need. However, the only thing I ever read on hear which we all seem to agree on is the need for a new striker - the opinions are varied from unrealistic to unambitious, but remain the same E.g. whetther a Falcao, Damiao, a lesser but proven (diombia, Huntelaar) to even a PL proven (Odemwingie, Long etc) or hot prospect (lukaku). Hopefully Levy agrees with us.
Windlespur
Good post CTS and Windlespur I agree 100%
Ossie
Brilliant that we have a sound financial footing. Brilliant that the club has increased it's value. But to whose.....end ? A football club...should be for the fans....i.e...no fans ..no football club. Our stadium is small..and unattractive...yet .we continue to INcrease our fan base. New stadium ASAP...please..... OH.....and let's not take our eye off the ball.......goals win games and our few strikers are ageing and loseing their abilities........yet..our manager doesn't reward a inform reserve striker a place on the subs bench !! Time to spend is during the transfer windows.....Mr.Levy....we are NOT scoring goals for fun, at the min'....and haven't been for a fair while.
82spursdebut
Frunk, there is only one league table which counts, have we moved up it or down it since Enic arrived? PS whats wrong with making a profit? Have you got your arsenal membership yet?
tophobunty
Firstly, those who think that our financial strength was weakned under Harry, clealry haven't grasped our last published accounts.

Secondly, it's the Spurs board, not ENIC who make the budgetting decisions.

Thirdly, the club's cash position has been or is und pressure from a)40 mill (in cash) spent on he new training facilities ad b) a sum not too far from 20 mill in cash in the last 18-24 months now gathering pace on the re-development of WHL...

That said, AVB will know exactly what we need and how much we can afford to pay for him/them.
Our media revenues nearly double over the next two years, so unquestionably we have money to spend, IF th deal is right..
Spursex
Why is 4th seen as our holy grail, the limits of our possible expectations, are we not selling ourselves short, limiting our ambition. It's about time we adopted the Japanese business model of continuous improvement, with no defined end objective. Yesterday we restricted Man Utd, the best team in the country, to 2 shots on target, whilst they were unable to prevent us having 8 shots on target, although we could only convert 1. I am totally convinced that at the back, and in MF, possibly, though not absolutely urgently, with the addition of a "lock picker" we are as good as anything in the league. It is up front where we fall down, we have few options, and a lack of real class. Sort this out and we would be a match for anyone, a far superior squad to Arsenal, Everton, Liverpool and the rest of the pretenders, so come on Lewis/Levy, show us some ambition, let's see a modest investment , not simply re-cycled money, to take THFC to the next level, if in fact that is where you both wish it to go. Let's look at 2nd, 3rd, as an objective rather than a dodgy 4th, it cost us last year, lets not have any doubts in the future, we are potentially a year on year regular CL club, we only need that few quid as a push. Give AVB the chance he deserves or risk sickening him off.
Frank
There is no point in buying more of what we have. We are on the cusp of greatness and have been for 2 seasons. We've maintained this despite selling our best players and not reinvesting the proceeds. We need a sold top notch striker and stop buying into the calls for poverty. As to the insults flung @ Frank, Topho, you just went down in my estimations.
Cape Town Spurs
Frank - Thinkk about what you wrote. We are the 14th biggest spenders in the Prem yet we are behind the 3 riches teams in the prem table. To sum up your observation, we should be in a relegation battle based on what we have spent!!!!

We will never spend like Citeh, United or Chelsea, therefore I can only have admiration for Levy on achieving the impossible. Based on this "Spending table" that seems so important!
yiddyboy
Tony, should read debt against future earnings. As for carrying debt, it is not really a problem. Look at Utd. 600m in debt and club increasing in value. The Glazers borrowed huge amounts against future earnings to buy the club.Spent a lot on transfers, but we have also made a lot on transfers. ENIC are very good at financial management. It is nothing like having a sugar daddy. Nor am I advocating spending 100m a season and playing fantasy football with our club. We have got where we are very cheaply whilst increasing the value of the club. Remember, the club now has more assets in land as well and if all the planning regulations are in place for the stadium then that also adds to the value of the club. Not to mention, we have run on a tight wage budget for many years, out wages/turnover ratio was around 50-55% for many seasons, which was one of the best in the PL. We now have a state of the art training facility, again adding value to the club. All these factors give us a fantasic potential and ripe for someone to come in and push us to the next level. Debt of course is transparent in company accounts, but now we are no longer a PLC, they dont have to disclose company information.
vicspur
we seem to be divided. i'd like to propose a toast, no, a poll... the question is easy... do spurs need to strengthen up front, yes or no
Cape Town Spurs
Still links with Negredo. He is a Striker anyway, but I have not seen too much of him, however very good goals record (6 in 12 for Spain, 11 in 18 this season), over 6 foot & only 27, so maybe an example of the Investment, but without the significant investment risk we can realistically consider (and better than an FOC Saha deal). Interested in other fans who have seen him play views on him ???????????
Windlespur
or, are you happy with spurs attacking options, yes or no... anything less than 100% will shown the intrusion of a troll
Cape Town Spurs
top'...what's wrong with making a profit, you ask !?.....fair question. BUT is it at the expense of young, old ...all fans wanting to get into see a game live at THFC...and see goals, goals, goals...!!??....lol.
82spursdebut
the fact that we are 14th on the net spend list but have still bought in more players than most is the whole point. thats why we are doing well, because we buy the right players at the right time, young and talented that have resale value. harry set us back because he was unable to maintain that approach, the players he built his success around - modric, bale etc were already here, while the players he brought in are mostly gone and at a loss for the club - keane, crouch, chimbonda, palacios etc if the right deal comes along then we will buy, even break our transfer record if we will almost certainly recoup the layout a few years down the line. finding players that will improve us but accept our wages is the hard part. of course we would challenge if we had van persie, he is the best striker in the world right now, city, chelsea, even arsenal would challenge if they had him and he will likely deliver the title for united. these strikers are the hardest to find. and this notion that just because AVB tells the media that we don't necessarily need another striker doesn't mean that thats what he really thinks ffs, he doesn't have to show his hand all the time, that was a harry impediment
Guernman
cape town spurs.......the answer is obvious.........Simply cos' our conversion rate, is decreasing...at the business end of the season.
82spursdebut
CTS - I would suggest that the poll would be 100% yes. The discussion we need is who & realistic or not i.e. Massive investment (Damiao, Hulk, Falcao etc), Investment (Doumbia, Huntelaar, Ba type), Prospect so less investment (Lukaku, Negredo, Diame type) or Bargain but PL experience (Jones, Long, Odemwingie, Malouda etc). For me, clearly I would want to bring in a SIGNIFICANT Striker to take us to next step, but reality is unlikely, but we need to bring in a striker and any of above options better than Saha type desperate bid. An interesting debate..............................
Windlespur
82 agree but i think the players should take a cut in wages of 50% and 50% of that goes to driving down ticket prices
tophobunty
I dont think its a case of either really, what they try to do is get the balance between keeping us a financially strong club and improving our results on the pitch. This, to be fair, has happened over the last decade or so, so I'd say most of the time they get the balance right. Our rise hasn't been meteoric like Citeh's or Chelski's, but, lets face it, we're a lot better off now than we were when they took over, and, who knows, all that big spending by the chavs could well come back to bite them in the arse. now, taking off my rational hat and putting my supporters hat back on... WHAT THE ***** ARE YOU DOING LEVY!?!?!? WHY AREN'T WE BUYING MOUTINHO, LLORENTE, WILLIAN AND DAMIAO!!!!!! I WANT INSTANT SUCCESS NOW!!!!!!!!!
wiltshirespur
Topbounty don't talk like a prat, of course there is nothing wrong with making a profit, just as there is nothing wrong in allowing the club to realise it's true potential, by prudent investment. Moderate expenditure to establish us as a year on year CL club, would increase revenues, our TV revenue, and improved sponsership exposure, giving us leverage to improved deals, and so that our shirts at 40-50 a time, would be seen hanging in sports shops north of Watford, or in continental Europe, along with, and in equal numbers, to those of Man U, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, which I can assure you is not the case currently. We have a golden opportunity to sail past Arsenal, damage them by nicking their CL spot, and keeping it, but only if we improve our glaring inadequacy up front, not by "throwing money at it" as you say, but by making a timely, and reasonable, invest from the money made in recent windows. As well as making a profit, it is also valid to speculate to accumalate. Finally no I haven't joined Arsenal or anybody else, but I also haven't subscribed to a course at the "Daniel Levy" savings bank financial adviser Co. either, have you. I hope you and others receive a hefty gratuity for your unerring support, when he and Bahamas Joe cash in, and ride away into the sunset, but I seriously doubt it. Incidently the name is "frank" with an A, not "frunk" with a U.
Frank
I am with CapeTown on this one, whilst I don't think we can afford the Hulk, we can do better than Saha. Just think if we had been slightly more ambious last January and if Willian/Mourtinho had replaced VDV and Modric where we would be now. CL revenue alone would have put us in the black. I know there is a fine line on finances and we don't want to end up like Leeds, but the way we are going we are ending up like Everton or Aston Villa, with no money to spend a relying on players to over achieve just to remain in the division.
Chelmspur
Marmite (Joe Lewis) and Peanut Butter (Daniel Levy), some people love them, they make others feel violently sick!!
Frank
I think it's a smokescreen and levy will bid 48m for falcao with a minute to go on the 31st. COYS
tottingham10
Just a bit of trivia and intrigue. May be someone can enlighten me:

What is the official capacity at WHL?. I ask, because I note that y'day's attendance was 35,956. Is that it or 44 peeps didn't turn up?!!
Critical_Spur
I think that fan that Dempsey hugged after that goal sex weed all down his leg!!
tottingham10
ENIC could be the worst owners in our history or the best...truth is we don't know yet....a half a billion (30 years transfer budget?) is a lot of debt for a concrete bowl that will take 15+ years to pay off and then only catapult us to the spending levels of Newcastle...so no PL/CL titles to be had from the stadium. But Levy is a smart guy and Land economy grads are some of the smartest so hopefully he can shift around the parcles and negate some of the impact...what we have to see though is the football brain...the team has to be balanced, we can not put all our cash in the stadium. If he had a degree in marketing he'd perhaps understand that building a brand is MORE profitable than building a 56k stadium...But for who? and do they care? they can increase the value of our club and sell making themselves a huge profit....who they sell to and what debt is left on the stadium is anyones guess?
shedboy2
It is the duty of any owner to maximise the earning potential of their club, as well as diligently run the club on a sound financial footing. No one should doubt that ENIC has adhered to the latter, but failed spectacularly with the former. I am bored reminding people of what they said when they arrived in 2001, and a review was conducted at that time by David Buchler. Stressing that the capacity was far too small for a club like Tottenham, Buchler went on to say "It is our preferred option to remain at White Hart Lane," said David Buchler, Tottenham's executive vice-chairman. "However, in order to do so the ground over the next five or 10 years has to have a larger capacity with transport facilities and other facilities to match. "A number of other clubs, including our closest neighbours Arsenal, are building all-purpose brand new stadiums with all the facilities to match and we must not be left behind. Buchler added: "There is a huge amount of co-operation therefore that is required from lots of different sources to ensure that White Hart Lane over the next five or 10 years can be turned into the sort of ground that we can all be proud of. "The partnership required with the local authority and others, particularly on transport, will be a key to ensuring the success of this." That was in September 2001. They have added 70 (seventy) seats, and looked at Picketts Lock and Stratford, hoping to bunk in on the cheap, and implied their foot-dragging at WLH was caused by a local authority playing hardball, which the leader of Haringey, Claire Kober, quickly shot down in flames. Comparisons with Man. City and Chelsea are of course, pointless, and the scare stories about Portsmouth and Leeds are just that. Neither club went bankrupt trying to build a bigger stadium. However, we had a similar capacity and turnover with our Woolwich neighbours, prior to their move, and why have they been able to plan it, finance it, build it, and move to it, while we have been prevaricating about adjusting WHL? Not on CL money alone, that's for sure. All done during a time when finance was relatively cheap compared with now, and when investment in football had never been greater. ENIC's legacy, while having stabilised the club on the field in the last few years, will be one of missed opportunity, and locking out 20,000 for every home game for many years, as well as the attendant income larger stadiums attract for sponsorship. The fact that we are in the top 20 richest clubs in the world should not detract from how much higher we would be, had ENIC kept to their word, and grasped the nettle all those years ago. What is our motto again?
lordjohnny
Once again lordjohnny a great post impeccably put.
SpuriousLife
lodjohnny - can't disagree with that. We should have made more progress and perhaps would have done if the economy hadn't crashed around us. Joe Lewis lost 1/3 of his fortune in Bear Stearns in 2008. That couldn't have helped.
muttley
I just don't get why some people are so happy to say they trust ENIC...why? they are a company that invests to make profit...they ARE NOT SPURS! I support Spurs and when I smell a rat I'm happy to shine a light, if there's nothing there good but in Levy/ENIC I do not trust. And not investing (ie spend more on players than you make by selling them) in our first team and particularly during this window will see their popularity start to wane...
shedboy2
Lots of good interesting points....Fact is, we will NOT be satisfied till...we see the new stadium built. Ever hopeful, that the first bricks go down soon. Just hope we do not lose a few thousand (fans)...in the mean time. Goals, goals, goals.....please.
82spursdebut
Frank - if you know how to guarrantee a champions league place every year through "moderate expenditure" every manager in the premier league would like to talk to you. I can see how you do it through massive expenditure (Man City and Chelsea) and I can see how you do it through superior management (Man U). Arguably Wenger did it for a while but that seems to be falling apart. Simple maths says if it costs you more to get into the champions league than earn from it you will eventually go bust.
jod
Possibly Muttley- However, I doubt Mr. Lewis was going to fund it with much of his personal wealth anyway, and what was he and ENIC doing for the previous 7 years?
lordjohnny
Though Levy and Co had make some investment in the club during their ruling era, they have failed to achieve playing in the CL twice in a row or winning an important title or trophy. This is because they just don't have the football knowledge that in order to achieve lasting successes you should invest to the right technical staff and buy the right players at the right time. Also they don't understand that doing business and housekeeping in time it can be much more beneficial to a football club than buying last minutes bargains. Given that they can't see it by themselves, I wish someone could persuade them that we are only two to three proper players away from seriously challenging for the title or/and some other trophy and, thus, increased revenue. If we had spent 7-10m to buy a striker last January we would had probably safeguarded third place and participation to the CL. That would had resulted to an extra revenue of more than 15m directly and, indirectly, a lot more because of the increased popularity of the club. I believe that Levy can't read, from his seat in WHL, our motto: to dare is to do!
Ioan X
I never really experienced it or remember it because I was too young, but can somebody tell me the differences between ENIC and the sugar regime before it? I have heard nothing but bad things about Spurs under sugar, is that the case? and if so how much of an improvement are ENIC?
wiltshirespur
CapeTownSpurs, if you are to revise the question in that manner then it must be "can a striker who suits the eye of the manager, who would better and fit in to the team and who can be afforded within what we consider responsible wages and whose team is willing to sell on a reasonable transfer fee be found and locked up prior to January 31?" There are always guys out there. I could name a dozen guys that I believe would fit most, if not all of those parameters, but what I don't know is what AVB wants. I can bleat on about Castaignos, Son, Mitoglou, Alderweirald, Howedes, Belhanda, Perisic, Arnautovic and so many more, but it doesn't mean that AVB wants a single wone of them (perisic just signed so he's done anyway. I would understand fully if we spent 45-50M on Son, Willian, Negredo, Sissokho (pre-contract - now for nominal fee) and Holtby in now. We are still in three competitions and need to make certain that all effort goes in to the League. Perhaps they are waiting to see what happens against Leeds and who we are drawn against in the FA Cup. I don't know. What I do know is that we are well run from a dollars and cents standpoint. I would rather a DOF so that there could be someone getting the talent for the manager. That's not our system, as such, Levy (ENIC) and AVB have to agree and all the other parameters must be in place. Not easy. Something should be done. Looking at what other teams are doing, it worries me. Many are already spending their extra 20M from next year's TV deal. That is an incredibly dangerous practice. If it were my money to gamble with, I would do it. But then I am a fan first. And again, perhaps AVB does not want any of these guys on offer. Harry said so himself 2 Januarys in a row, there was nothing out there that wasbetter than what we had. In other words, what was affordable was not, in Harry's opinion, an improvement. COYS
peterballb
I am very happy with the way our club has been run up until now. I was happy when AVB got the job, I was happy when we got 33 million for Modders, 32 million for Berbatov, 18 million for Carrick, 20 million for Keane, 12 million for Bent, 6 million for Dos Santos, 10 million for Pav (who I now miss a lot..). What I now want to see is some slight REINVESTMENT. I'm not talking about blowing 30 million on some fly by night striker. I'm talking about 12-15 million on a proven goalscorer who could be worth 20-25 million to the club as he starts to bang in goals. I am a realist and I know our best players, for the next few years at least, are likely to eventually leave, and that Mr Levy is superb at getting the most money he can for them. It's the reinvestment of that money that needs to be seen.
Sebthespur
Thanks Spurious- However, It's getting pretty tedious having to say the same thing over and over. I fear the rumours about our stadium are as genuine as the ones about bringing in a world class striker for top dollar.
lordjohnny
Sir Alan Sugar.....put a lot of his own money, into the upgrade of the stadium. Would be a Great Great jesture / Legacy...if others followed suit.
82spursdebut
We did try hard for Remy, last Jan'...but the money wanted was just too much........But that doesn't excuse, the here and now....transfer window. They only come twice a year...lol
82spursdebut
I know next to nothing about ENIC beyond their ownership of this club, the period of whose ownership so far having impressed me. I also appreciate what Daniel Levy as chairman has done for Spurs and the likes of a new stadium that he has planned for near future. I see what has happened because of certain owners at other clubs that have become personal playthings football fans generally don't respect, and I count our lucky stars. What a close shave we had that Abramovich's initial interest in Tottenham came to nothing. And that Tottenham has been kept out of the clutches of feudal sheikhs whose easily acquired (because robbed from their peoples) wealth has meant money-no-object behaviour and indulging their personal whim. Look at Arsenal, Pompey, Aston Villa, Manchester United, and what internal dispute Liverpool supporters had to endure until relatively recently.
Airwave
shedboy, it's nopt that anyone "trusts" ENIC. Thy are a business. What is "trusted" is that they will not gamble the future of the club for the here and now. That's what good business people do. They only ever take calculated risks.

Lordjohnny, what your post isses is that the first is sometimes in conflict with the second and where there is a conflict, fans would gamble on the first while hoping it all works ot, while a business person would make absolutely sure of the second before even daring to gamble on the first. I am not an ENIC apologist. There are tons of moves I have advocated on here. These are not unknown commodities. That said, it has been decide not to do. Why? I don't know. As for the stadium, we will not get the corporate backing that Chelsea and Arsenal get because our fans are a different bunch. It's not the same. We face the same issues as Liverpool who also have been unable to expand capacity, despite the waiting list and reality that they could reap larger rewards. Valencia did just what you suggest, and now they have a half-completed stadium, going in to a state of ruin because there is no money to complete the project.

Yes, ENIC stated that the ground would be done long before now. Planning approvals only were agreed less than a year ago and at considerable compromise (we lose almost 10k seats and a whole whack of commercial ventures). As to why Arsenal can afford it, where we can't, they had the good fortune at the inception of the PL to realize how important it was to be in the top echelon and we did not. That's where the dispoarity started, which was then compounded by the CL and the "top 4". Unfortunately, we missed the boat. It is a much more complicated financial landscape now then it was 20 years ago. Then again, we could be Villa or Everton. COYS
peterballb
I think it is safe to say that Levy and enic are a little too cautious when it comes to spending money and Im sure on several occasions their insistance of only paying their value or what they think they might get away with has probably cost us several very good players and big frustration for the manager, whoever that was at the time. what is now inportant is to strike sensible balance between spending to a point when we back the managers judgement where possible but also keeping a firm handle on the balance sheet.
oxfordspur
82spursdebut, yes we were in for Remy and both the fee and his wages were at issue. Three or our times the comentators in the QPR Wst Ham game mentioned that QPR got their an and that he was on"huge" wages (presumably for a relegation threatened team). Definitely more than Newcastle was prepared to spend.

Yes, Sugar put in his own funds. He also got a pretty good sum when he sold. Lewis is not that cat. He will put in his own money only if not doing so would be absurd. He is a fan of the club's finances. Nothing else. I just accept that that is what he is. COYS
peterballb
Arse' fans...are a different bunch to us...!!!!!...lol.lol.......we know that !!!!...but they have no more money than us !!...lol
82spursdebut
lordjohnny, the new stadium will come when all is funded to the satisfaction of Lewis and ENIC. If for no oherreason because the new stadium will push Surs from a half billion enterprise to well over a billion. What he won't do, is to mortgage all of his other interests so that one business gets what it wants. Complain away, but this is just how Lewis is and Levy and ENIC do his bidding withing the budget he allows. COYS
peterballb
I like Mr.Levy..cos' he seems to be a fan.....But Joe lewis....is ..well let's be pleasant and say Mr. GRinch !!...lol
82spursdebut
Frunk as you mentioned PRAT, I guess one of use does consistantly talk that way. and thank you for describing the great Job Levy and the board have been doing.."just as there is nothing wrong in allowing the club to realise it's true potential, by prudent investment" once again thank you Frunk
tophobunty
82spursdebut, their area has more money and there were a lot more synergies. Make no mistake, Spurs re alone in this venture. Haringey has nothing they can offer to make it mutually beneficial. Haringey will benefit fom the mprovements, but they will be local. I doubt very much that there will be a huge Haringey regeneration because wehave a bigger stadium. The area around WHL wil be nicer. That's about it. COYS
peterballb
PS where did i say "throw money at it?
tophobunty
ENIC, Levy, Lewis or a combination of all run Spurs like a well groomed business. If anyone thinks that football is NOT a business then I'm afraid you are very deluded. I don't get this ambition discussion, To me, ENIC have a long term project plan that is being implemented. Maybe slower than what was planned but then most projects run like this anyway.
yiddyboy
It will bring jobs...money...to the local people...plus entice a extra few thousand from further a field, to spend their monies in the Tottenham area, reasonably frequently.
82spursdebut
I think Frank hit the nail on the head (by design or accident) when he said referring to Lewis/Levy, " take THFC to the next level, if in fact that is where you both wish it to go". That's the thing. I don't think we really know what they really want for the club. As fans we all want to win the league and the frustrating thing is that for the first time in many a year, we almost have a side that could win it. We just need a little bit of extra quality. That costs money and whilst we would happily spend, our owners may not feel the risk is worth the money. After all we are doing well whilst not spending too much. We are now a top 4ish side. Our owners may be more than happy with that
In-spurs-ational
IoanX, what striker are you referring to that would have cost us 7-10M? Let's be real. Most of the strikers who would suit us and would be a marked improvement would cost double or triple that, not to mention the wages. We could have had Suarez, but we didn't do the deal. Coach and scout's prerogative. That's all fine. Harry has to accept who Harry gets. Same with AVB. Negredo is clearly waiting to see if something better comes along (Schneijder too). Deals like these will get done at the last. It's unfortunate, but it's where we are. Not quite elite, but ahead of the rest. It's still a huge step before we get to be the elite. Win trophies. Be in it for the title and get the stadium built all while expanding the brand. Then we'll be there. We have come an awful long way, lest any forget where we were a decade ago. Villa gambled and they are in big kaboobers (as I tell my kids). Everton has done it within budget. That's who our contemporaries were a decade ago. COYS
peterballb
Peter- what's the difference between a calculated risk on a player or a gamble on a 450m debt? also being pedantic and not wanting a fight but we're not a franchise and the dollars and cents don't add up....that'll be pounds and Pence...;)
shedboy2
Its clear to most that we have come far under ENIC's ownership. Yet its also clear that in the last few years there has been no net investment in the playing squad & infact we have made a surplus on player transfers. I understand that hard work is going into the stadium but i'd like to see AVB given some real investment or at least start laying some bricks in the NDP. Im a fan of Levy but questions are rightly being asked. However when you look at Aston Villa a very similar club in terms of size & status you realise that things could be a lot, lot worse. COYS
HuddersfieldYiddo
yiddy boy....Yes, fair point...But they themselves sold this project...and asked monies from us.....on completion dates of 2012/13. Now, as i'm a adult...and have a little trust in Mr.levy...can understand delays........BUT...my kid...and no doubt other kids...may not see it that way so easily. Hence.....i suggest they keep feeding the kids with Goals, goals, goals.
82spursdebut
82spursdebut, I could probably name you 100 professional sports franchises that have said that. There are no jobs created (part time/ seasonal sure). Just a nicer area for everyone to come to every couple of weeks during the football season. I do not expect to see the development in the area that Arsenal has seen. Yes, some of the shops will see better business, but most of the people that live there don't own the shops. It's a relatively small few who will, once again, profit a little more every couple of weeks at game time. COYS
peterballb
peterballb, so true. We are big enough that we are a good team to go to, but not big enough for players to come to us without seeing if a man u, real Madrid or the like want them first. Therefore any big deals in this window won't happen until Levy time (January 31st 11:55pm)
In-spurs-ational
HuddersfieldYiddo-yeah we could just suddenly stop buying players, bring in a young talented manager and put our faith in youth...hmm a few similarities there...hope we're not just two years behind the curve on them!
shedboy2
It's not a marmite question to me ENIC care about the balance sheet its their job and they are doing a fairly good one of it. 90% of the prem league want a proven striker. they are not available at below inflated prices
troffer2
In-spurs-ational- that'll be 55mins too late this year...I hope someone has told Levy!
shedboy2
OK, let's call Spurs a brand then. Either way, it is,potentially, for sale around the globe. The difference between the risk between 45M on a player and 450M on a project that will take 3-5 erars to be completed, is huge. The players I mentioned can all be sold at profit if things do not go to plan allowng you to change your course. The sadium cannot be undone. In for a ha-pence, if for a pound. How will Remy, Cesar, Hoilett, Park etc like the Championship next season. To whom can you offload all those contracts? They got their players by paying more than anyone else was willing to. Fernandez, a man worth half a billion has made a hge gamble with his personal fortune. If they stay up, they probably still post a loss. If they go down....COYS
peterballb
When I went through comments section of vital utd,even they think only a class finisher is separating Us from Citeh and Utd themselves.Anyone and everyone can see that!
SilwalYid
Well..we sell the brand abroad...increase our fan base.....the world increases in population....including uk.......we put on stadium tours....increase the number of spurs shops.....BUT...Do not Increase the size of our stadium !!.........a new stadium will do a awful lot of goodness. May even entice a better player to come to spurs.....occaisionnally, rather than money.
82spursdebut
Play the ball not the man Topho. Rather than trade insults with Frank, give us a good reason why ENIC has failed to address the stadium issue in nearly 12 years of ownership, when they promised to do something 'as a priority' on day one? Locking out 20,000 waving their chequebooks ain't prudent stewardship in my book.
lordjohnny
Rather than require more money to come....
82spursdebut
shedboy2, I hope someone tells Levy too, although the cynic (rhythms with enic) in me tells me he has got a ready made excuse to sprout out when no one is signed
In-spurs-ational
FOOTNOTE;After reading this you may wish to kick the blokes head in if you see him, but those wishing to do so, i think the QUEUE would be all the way down the high road to seven sisters, several times over? http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/130121/spurs-are-embarrassing-norwich-deserve-better-holt-and-more-adrian-durha-189802
spu 4 life
82spursdebut - I get what you are saying but the investment in new players is and has been there. We signed Dembele, Vertonghen, Dempsey and Siggy in the one window and got rid of squad players and want-aways. We really miss VDV, and many were constantly moaning on here last season due to lack of fitness. The guy was quality only some on here wouldn't know that if it bit them on the ar$e. Modric wanted out so better of without. We need a striker but again, many on here thought Ade was going to be the marquee signing, I've never rated him from Arsenal days. Toy can always tell a player by their first touch.
yiddyboy
Spu 4 life, you have to realise that Adrian Durham is just doing the job that he is paid for. Talk Sport make money from people calling their 0871 phone number even if the caller doesn't get on air. Therefore the more people that ring, the more money Talk Sport make. Spurs are a good target as we have a large and passionate fan base who don't mind ringing up to put Mr Durham in his place
In-spurs-ational
I'm sorry if this seems naive but surely if Enic are just about making money then why bother with a tedious fifteen year project at a football club, surely there are better and quicker ways of promoting the company and making money? Someone enlighten me please?
Jantheman
Jantheman, maybe Joe Lewis likes owning a football club. Something to do with his spare change.
In-spurs-ational
Lordjohnny, several reasons why the stadium project has not begun as early as any of us would like - we needed to buy up all of the land necessary for the project (that was completed abou 16 months ago, if memory serves); permits were only issued less than a year ago; how about, there wasn't the finances short of Lewis going in to his own pocket, which he has shown, time and again, he is not prepared to do; financing on that size of a debt does not happen so well until it can be shown that you can handle the debt. I would suggest that it would be really hard tyo convince any financial institution that a 100M company can afford a 300M project, whereas it is quite easy to see how a 546M entity can afford a 450M project; Haringey; London. Just a few that I can think of. I'm sure there are better ones I know nothing of. COYS
peterballb
I will keep my power dry until May 20th, I am getting bored by reading posts from the ENIC/Lewis/Levy appreciation society members, and fellow apologists, but I will wait in pregnant anticipation to remind them, and listen to their lame excuses, if we fail to finish top 4 and CL qualification as a result of another window of inactivity, don't forget you can't blame HR this time, there will only be two men, our owner and our esteemed chairman, as before, and their disciples, in the frame. By the way, good post as per usual Lordjohnny, but I'm afraid you are flogging a dead horse, there are none so blind as them that won't see, and none so deaf as those, that have their heads in the sand, or up their own arses.
Frank
I respect Levy for what he has done so far, he has helped (not the only guy who has helped spurs in the last ten years or so) us become stable competitors at the top of the premier league. However, he hasn't made the calculated risk to take us to the next level yet and I think he could be worried about doing that. He's had his fingers burnt with big money signings in the past and this worries me. If we don't strengthen now and in the summer then I think losing Bale could be a sudden reality and we will again be seen as a selling club. I'm not suggesting forking out 20M for each player that we bring in because money doesn't equal success, I think we should look at Newcastle in the way they take calculated risks on players. Cabaye, Ben Arfa, Cisse and Ba came to about 11M total I think... We need to properly scout and then look for quality deals (because thats what Levy likes).
rahn DMC
Two players of significant quality at reasonable prices I feel are Llorente and Philipe Coutinho. You could probably get them for a total fee of around 15M. Coutinho is leaving cheap (8M) after once being regarded as the best young attacking midfielder in Europe with a price of around 20M. Llorente is free in the summer so Athletic would rather get some money for him instead of him going for free. Whatever happens, Levy has to get in a Striker and pass master midfielder. And once those two positions are addressed, maybe wing competition would be a good idea.
rahn DMC
Frank, you neglect AVB in the equation, just as you so willingly neglect Harry. If the coach does not want a player, they will not be coming. END OF. That mistake was made with Jol and will not be repeated. Harry didn't get a single person he and his staff didn't want. They didn't get everything they wanted either, but they had input on every move. If Harry or his scouts said NO WAY, then it did not happen. I am sure AVB has the same input. Wanting Willian (which he does) and getting him are two wholly different matters. His team are cash rich. They do not need to sell. He will go when someone pays what they want. he will sign with the team that will do that and give him the most dosh. COYS
peterballb
peterb-Last comment on this. ENIC could have sewn up comp. purchase orders with Haringay years ago, same with S106 requirements (lot less than A**e had) sorted finance and rebuilt WHL, and now be enjoying revenue streams similar to A**e. Their own man said it may take 5 to 10 years to complete in 2001. Why after 12 are we still no further? Frank, I agree. I'm afraid some people refuse to address the facts, and use all sorts of obfuscation to defend the indefensible.
lordjohnny
Even Juve have sid that Llorente wil be forced to play out his contract. He is oing nowhere at this time. I read in the summer that his intention was to run out his contract and wait and see if RM or Barca come calling. If not, he will go where it suits him. Llorente is very unlikely. Also, Bilbao said, to change ther mind it would require someone to stump the buyout which is about 27M. Coutinho looks set to go to Liverpool. He was not going to make it in Inters Plans and they want rid. Rather we got Belhanda or Son for the same money, or Guidetti for that matter. COYS
peterballb
Peterbalb - Thanks for the info on Llorente, I didn't know that (kind of been out of touch with transfers really). As for Coutinho I still think he would be a quality signing (and I would love to get another one of the scousers ;) ). I agree with you on Guidetti, shame he's had a big injury but he tore up the dutch league last season. I would quite like us to get him on loan with a fixed future transfer fee and go in for a consistent quality finisher. I've heard good things about Son and Belhanda but haven't seen either of them play...
rahn DMC
I would also really consider looking at Cabaye. Quality touch, great passer, good finisher (good at free kicks) and he's used to the prem. Whatever happens though we HAVE TO strengthen. Everyone else (who needs to) are so I don't know why we aren't.
rahn DMC
LJ, in the 90's we were spending 3-5M on players and selling players for virtaully nothing. Arsenal were selling players for 10-15M and were spending 20M on players. By the year 2000 they were killing us on the transfer side of things (all pre-stadium). 15M here, 10M there. They were also recouping big money on player sales while we were buying Rebrov and nowt else. We were not, as people continually assert, on a level playing field with Arsenal at that time. They were on the ascendency and we were living off a cup win here and there. It was timing. As I said, they got the boat, we slept in. Can hardly blame ENIC for all that.

As I have said, I am not an ENIC apologist. There are tons of things they have done or ommitted to do that I did not agree with. Where I can't argue is in the clubs finances. I would spend the 45M on Negredo, Son, Willian, Sissokho and Holtby to add 5 while selling Rose, Hudd and Gomes for now and allowing the chips to fall where they may in August. It's clearly not the plan and there is no way of knowing if any of those I mention would come (other than Holtby). Above Coutinho was mentioned (I believe Liverpool are in for him), Willian (Chelsea), Negredo (Arsenal), Llorente (Juve), Schneijder (Galatasaray). We are not the only ones out there. All well and good to build my fantasy team. None of it means the player wants to come. We don't buy loyalty, so it's always a hard sell and generally comes down to best offer on the table on the 31st. That's just how it works. We did sign Fryers, Holtby, Sigurdsson, Vertonghen, Dembele, Lloris and Dempsey. We have spent 63M, have increased salaries of key players and have spent every transfer dollar we brought in. We are at a 3M deficit, and I can only presume that will wind up being higher by the 31st. We'll see. Even if not, it's a deficit spend to date and higher salaries. Look, things have changed dramatically. I remember when we were screaming for a LW for a decade before BAE and Bale came in and finally gave us two players on the left that did not give that side of the pitch away. I know where Spurs will be in 5 year, financially. Does any QPR fan know where their team will be? COYS
peterballb
we read different books Lodjohnny and i have not been discussing the stadium with Frunk or anyone else on here. are you on substances again or getting me mixed up with someone else who is discussing the stadium?
tophobunty
What is wrong in wanting the club to spend 20 million plus on a player. That is what the club want us to think we are capable of doing. It must be leeks from within the club that let us know we bid 30 million on a few strikers a few years ago and 20 million on Moutinho this window. I think the club bid for these players knowing they had no chance of getting them. To appease us fans. This is what you could have won. Yet what happens to that money in the next window. It vanishes from the kitty. In fact the only time recently that I have known ENIC to spend money was when we were bottom of the league and Harry first took over. Recently they have made a profit from player sales. Looking at the bench on sunday meant that most of the really large squad has been sold. Only a few bits of deadwood are left and will not get much for JJ or Bentley now. Gomes, Rose, Livermore, Thudd and even Defoe could be moved on for cash soon. Even Siggy maybe put up for sale soon. Then to me we only have one major sellable player left in Bale. If we keep selling our best players and bringing in lesser players the only way is down. I think ENIC do not have the money to move us forward and it is time to put out the feelers. We now have to spend bigger amounts on players as we now need players to improve the first 11. That means a top striker and a creative midfield player. What happen to us being the club that snapped up the best young British players. I still think we are a bit short on the flanks in case Bale or Lennon get injured.
nothappyharry
A couple of points before I get onto the ENIC issue.
Firstly with regard to the Redknapp era. He was brought in as a short term replacement only, trouble was, he overachieved and Levy would have had a riot on his hands if he'd binned him at the end of the now infamous '2 points from 8 games' season and anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or a fool. Let's not forget either that it was Levy whose disgusting treatment of Jol and his hiring of Ramos that left us up the creek without a canoe let alone a paddle. So the whole Harry saga was only really necessitated due to poor decisions from the Land Economist who is masquerading as a football club chairman.
Gotta get some grub but I'll be back later to expose the Training ground myth too.
thfc1882whl
Groundhog day for me. Heard all these promises, stories and opinions before by the vital community. Stadium situation has taken far too long, just hope when it is finished it will be a masterpiece. In regard to tranfers, I would be astonished if we signed a striker in the next 10 days. Dempsey and Defoe for the foreseeable future. Fryers and Holtby are strategic signings to release Gallas and Hudd in the near future.
thenuge
absolutely peterballb. during the ups and downs, whether we win trophies or not I want to be supporting my club, I think it is madness that owners can gamble with the very future of a club today. QPR has been around for 116 years or so, they won't last that many more with a wage bill of around 200% of turnover. We are extremely hard to buy for because it takes a very good player to improve on what we have, and players that good will want champions league and high wages which we can't deliver, so we have to wait and see just as they wait and see until the window closes and what other teams have come in for them. This notion that we simply obstinately refuse to do business until the last day is absurd, its just the nature of our position right now.
Guernman
"I say, be careful what you wish for. There are plenty of sharks out there who could completely ruin our club. Good for ENIC if they have massively improved our value without saddling us with huge debts or liabilities. We might not be so lucky if they sell to a Glasereque family or dodgy billionaire,"Love totty

Ah, Love totty, you read my posts last week? Good to see some agreement, mate. But remember that ENIC is a capitalist financial investment company, so they view the world solely through the lens of profits and losses. They won't run up debts to win. Indeed, winning can have value for them solely in financial terms, which it never will for us, the loyal supporters. We forever will be at cross purposes with people like ENIC. But, they've clearly done better by us and our club than an awful lot of their ilk, and for this we should thank the stars. Look what vulture owners did to Liverpool, so they give thanks to get the Fenway group instead. And do we really want a gangster madman like the goon who owns Chelski? Not I. There are no "good" owners in our era of financial robbers owning our governments and privatizing the public realm. At least we don't find any owner of THFC moving us across an ocean or from once side of the country to another. Look what rich owners did to baseball teams in America, e.g., the beloved Brooklyn Dodgers moved to L.A., and the L.A. Rams football team moved to St. Louis, while the Saint Louis Cardinals moved to Phoenix and the Baltimore Colts moved to Indianapolis. (OK, we've seen Wimbledon moved to Milton Keanes!) Bad enought that the team from Woolwich moved to North London, but that wasn't such a recent move. (I'd still like to send them packing back, though.) Beware of what you ask for, it could be far worse than ENIC has been, even if they fail to bring in a clinical finisher this month. Cheers, mates.

Total knobhead
Good point, 1882. Ah, the Ramos saga. And wasn't there some Frenchman from their national team in there somewhere? He wasn't here long enough to remember his name. lol. (Or is it crying silently?) At least DL seems to have gotten it right this time. Viva ABV.
Total knobhead
nothappyharry, first off a 20M player comes with commensurate wages. So probably 4M per year minimum, probably over 5. So, on a 5 year deal that's an outlay of 45M. I think we do that if it's the correct player, ie AVB wants him, selling club will sell, player will come on reasonable (for us) wages, and there is not someone else willing to pay more. I keep hearing about this profit from player sales but canot locate it. We have a net spend of 3.5M. We also upped Bale and Walker's contracts. Modric, King and VDV are all gone but none were on the wages that Dempsey and Dembele are on (perhaps Lloris and Vertonghen too). So I have to admit, I don't see the extra cash under the mattress. It's fine to have a net spend. It's just fallacious to go on that we have this huge transfer profit sitting around. COYS
peterballb
TK .... Ahh Santini, another Levy masterstroke!
thfc1882whl
thfc1882whl, as TK stated, you are probably appreciating the facts surrounding Jol/Ramos and Harry correctly. Ramos was talked to well before Jol was fired. Harry was rumoured to have been spoken to after Ramos' 6th League game. That is a mess. Regardless of who spoke with whom, ENIC, thus Levy is ultimately responsible. Fact is C tied his fate to Ramos. Levy wanted rid of C and Ramos hd to go as well. Despite winning a cup through tactical astuteness, the fans never embraced Ramos. He didn't care. He didn't care what the media said. He tolerated them. I never minded that. Wished he had played nice with the fans and spoke enough English, but oh well. The die was cast the day he was hired rubbing JHol's face in it. The fans liked Jol. Frankly most said he had taken the club as far as he could, but Ramos became the lightning rod on a lot of issues. Again, he could have done things differently. I would not have fired him. He needed a year with his new players to make any judgment on him as a manager. Same for Harry (which I grudgingly gave him) and same for AVB. COYS
peterballb
Sorry, i cannot respect a very well paid person who comes to manage a english football side....and doesn't learn english....But thanks for the trophy...M'J' !!
82spursdebut
Be careful what you wish for...like a shiny new stadium...wolves took their eye off the ball tried to get journeyman in so they could fund the extra capacity 'they needed'...now they are playing Championship football.
shedboy2
Peter just because you prefer your source doesn't mean you don't know where this one is...;) http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/tottenham-hotspur-transfers.html
shedboy2
we still have a salary structure (not cap) if we've increased some players wages it's because others are on less, we've increased t/o, have less players or a combination of all.
shedboy2
Right, let's do away with this training ground myth now. Granted, ENIC have spent in the region of 45 million acquiring the land in Enfield and building a state of the art training centre upon it. No denying that and I wouldn't even attempt to.
What the apologists forget to mention when they reel out the old "They can't spend, they've invested 45 million on a training ground" is that ENIC now owns the aforementioned training ground and they are also now in a position to sell off prime real estate in Chigwell. Real estate with a market value, even no in the recession, of at least 80 million. Just imagine if they hold onto that land until the market picks up again, or until us fans have forgotten all about it and then they sell it off and THFC see's none of it. This is where having a Land Economist as a chairman really pays dividends, unfortunately those dividends will probably not end up in the coffers of the club that provided them. Still we do have a shiny new training ground that will bring ENIC top dollar when they sell up. And that's before we even start on about all the property in N17 that ENIC has been allowed to buy under the auspices of a new stadium, a stadium that as we speak hasn't even been put out to tender, a stadium that, if tender was issued tomorrow, wouldn't see a bum on a seat until the 2018/19 season.
thfc1882whl
we still have a salary structure (not cap) if we've increased some players wages it's because others are on less, we've increased t/o, have less players or a combination of all.
shedboy2
2018 / 2019 !!??...where did you get that from ?
82spursdebut
My point is the Peterballb is that if we bid this much money for the strikers a few windows ago and then 20 odd mill for Moutinho in the last window why does it not get put in a kitty. I also find it hard that all the manager of a club who want to challenge for a top four spot gets to spend is less than 4 mill. There has to be yearly kitty and add on from sales. Surely. Or we will be going the way of the Villas.
nothappyharry
shedboy, I haven't looked att he other ones for years as most of the others round off whereas transfermarkt does not. It really doesn't matter though does it? Yours shows a 3M profit and mine shows a 3M loss. How about we round off and say that they have spent the 60M that was brought in and how about we agree that our wages are likely higher this season than last? The allusion is that there is lots of money sitting around. Both figures demonstrate that is not the case. COYS
peterballb
thfc1882whl, I don't know who is suggesting that the training facility has anything to do with our transfer activity. In fact, levy and co have always asserted that the training facility and the stadium construction would not effect how we do business vis-a-vis player sales and purchases. They are completely separat, although are all part of the same whole at the end of the day. the club shows a small gain or a small loss year in and year out (expenditures= +/- revenues on the playing side). Seems fair to me. I accept that to be the status quo until the stadium is built and paid off. We increase revenues every year. But then salaries have crept up dramatically as the quality of our players has increased. It's now Willian, not Malbranque. Things have changed. People just expect moneuy to be thrown all over the place without looking at where those funds are supposed to come from. Lewis won't be reaching deep in to his pockets. That's just the way it is. Doesn't matter whether I like it. I just accept it. COYS
peterballb
Jantheman- Levy is a multi millioniare...he earns a fortune out of Spurs and when he sells he'll nab himself a big lump sum....he's already earned more than most people will in their lifetime and will double up when he sells....would you undertake a 15 year project for that sort of return? I would...
shedboy2
Regarding ENIC as our owners, I would have to say that they reek of venture capitalists as opposed to an investment company. They have provided stability on the economic side of the business. They have taken some fine young players, some of whom have blossomed and some of whom have failed, some of those failures could be down to there being no direction within the club where coaching is concerned. How many different coaches have players like Lennon and Huddlestone seen come and go in their time? How many times have ENIC started a new project? There has never been a single-mindedness about their footballing philosophy, prefering instead to lurch from one managerial system to the next like some sort of drunken pub crawl. Now it seems that they might have, by taking the cheap option (a manager who was free), found a winner, they are quibbling about backing the guy. Maybe they don't want CL football next season as it may mean that Bale decides to give us another year and they've already got his transfer dough earmarked for their back pockets.
If only they would back AVB with the players he wants, not poor mans substitutes, then I'd happily suffer seeing Levy sat smugly in the stands with his middle finger raised in my direction.
thfc1882whl
Bit off subject but relevant to us this season: who gives the Saints any chance of nicking 1 or even 3 points against Everton tonight? Will the Adkins sacking demoralise their players or galvanise them to push up the table. Please the latter.
bowerman
peterballb.... Sorry mate, I thought the subject was ENIC and not the transfer situation and the training facility is to do with ENIC. Glad Levy asserted that the facilities project wouldn't affect transfer policy though. Unfortunately he neglected to tell us that that was because there would be none!
thfc1882whl
82spursdebut....... 12 months tender process, six months cooling off period once tender accepted, 4 years to build and 6 months to get all the relevant safety certification.
thfc1882whl
nothappyharry- there won't be a kitty to throw the money in, finance doesn't work like that but you're correct there should be a yearly budget for player transfers and as Peter and I have just agreed that we didn't spend anything this year (We made a 27m profit last year)...both years there was no spending of a transfer budget...this gives rise to the impression that we should have money for a transfer or two now...not unreasonble assumption...unless the money is being used for the stadium and they're being economical with the truth that funding won't effect our transfers...
shedboy2
thfc1882whl, yes, there have been mistakes. I would say that our youth development ties in better with the senior club, better than at any ime I can recall (to be fair, much more important now). The number of coaches is a red herring. RM, Inter, AC Milan and many others win titles basically every year and have a manager every year. You get the talent and then hire a manager to suit the talent. There is no way in heck Harry would have us in 4th without Modric and VDV. There's no way we'd have Lloris in net and no way Caulker and Naughton would even be seeing the pitch. COYS
peterballb
'thfc1882whl-Glad Levy asserted that the facilities project wouldn't affect transfer policy though. Unfortunately he neglected to tell us that that was because there would be none!'- exactly the sort of lawyer speak I could imagine Levy using....that would be why his words wouldn't be trusted....although telling the truth, there's a deception through ommission.
shedboy2
peterballb ...... Sorry mate but at those clubs you've mentioned there is always a constant regardless of coaches and that's the style of play that these teams aspire to. We have not had that constant through our coaches and managers because the style has been changing from manager to manager and that can have a massive detrimental effect on young talent. Those you mentioned do not hire managers to suit the talent, they hire talent that will compliment the team and the way that team plays very rarely changes. Our last half a dozen managers have all had very different styles.
thfc1882whl
Don't get me wrong, I know the grass isn't always greener but the flip side of that coin is it's not always better the devil you know.
thfc1882whl
This article is just made for PELEBRO! Come on, tell us your opinion regarding ENIC Spurs and the situation we are facing now. I would never think of Daniel Levy beeing a scrooge?! Or is he? Or is Daniel Levy a secret santa and donates all the money we made from player sales, to the people who really need it? ENIC must be some kind of non-profit organization.
noone
shedboy, yes, this year is a net wash, last year a net gain of about 27M, the year prior to that a loss of 20M, the year prior to that a loss of 7M and the year prior to that a loss of 46M, all on the transfer side only. Fact is, all of those years, Spurs either made a nominal profit or suffred a nominal loss. Last year's numbers will likely be published in May, so only then, will we know if we made or lost money. We had a balloned squad and therefore, even with loans, I suspect that we did as we have year in and year out - small gain or small loss. COYS
peterballb
well, i'll keep the faith, that the stadium will be ready for season 2017 /18, at the latest.
82spursdebut
thfc1882whl, we have never had the squad to do so until Ramos purged and brought in proper players. Harry, to his cedit, continued that (didn't use them which is why I almost spit out my coffee when I saw the rumour he is in for Kranjcar) and now we have a youth set up, developmental setup and senior team that all seem to be in sync. That is what Ajax, Barca, Inter etc do. We are closer to that than ever before. COYS
peterballb
Over 10 years we've probably put in about 10m per year avg....that's the sort of budget for maintaining PL status...not cracking the top4...but if we really wanted to do that we'd have invested two years ago...wouldn't we?
shedboy2
whatever happened to Geoff Stern????
shedboy2
82spursdebut- and keep the faith that it sells out for at least 15 years thereafter! (but don't expect any more than mid table medicrity) With a bit if luck we could be challenging the top4 in about 20 years!
shedboy2
My Satisfaction will be dependant on what i see........after all, this is a entertainment industry.
82spursdebut
thfc1882whl, the devil we know will not gamble the club for his own fandom. I support that. Run it as a business. Let the coach manage like it is a football team. Lots of sports team owners these days operate like Lewis. Not all do it so well. I have been a fan of the Quebec Nordiques (now Colorado Avalanche) who are owned by Kroenke and family (same as Arsenal, the Rams and a host of other professional teams). I can tell you that he stripped any value he could out of the Avalanche to fund his purchases of the NFL and PL teams. The Avalanche were one of the best run clubs in the 90's and early 2000's, but then the salary cap came in and all was lowest common denominator. They have progressively worked their way to paying to the salary floor, making sure that no extra money goes out the door than need be. Perennial division champ, playoff participant, holder of the longest consecutive sellouts record and winner of 2 Stanley Cups all the way down to 11k fans in the seats (4 seat, 4 hot dogs, 4 Avalanche baseball caps and 4 pops for $100 while 1 ticket in Toronto costs in excess of $200.00), average players, rare playoff participation. From Glory Days to Whory Days, but Kroenke got the money he needed to become the majority shareholder of Arsenal. The devil we know would never do that. The stadium will be built. The franchise will be worth close to 1.5B and Lewis will sell. I would not be surprised to see Levy still around. Either way, we'll get the stadium, our debt will be manageable and Lewis will be even more stinking rich. If Levy can pull the strings, get some trophies and a title or two, he'll have done well. COYS
peterballb
peterballb...... Exactly mate, we are closer than ever before and that's why failure to invest properly would be bordering on criminal negligence. Surely he's learnt from his failure last season, what if we finish 4th and the nomads win the CL? Stranger things have happened, will we learn from history or stick our heads in the sand and pray lightening doesn't strike twice?
thfc1882whl
"whatever happened to Geoff Stern????, " shedboy2. That's a good one, sb2! what did happen to 'em?
Total knobhead
shedboy, put in from where? The money has to come from somewhere and Lewis/Levy/ENIC don't do that. All I am saying is that I don't expect the zebras in question to change their stripes. I have stated I would understand if they took a 45M gamble on players like those I have mentioned. It does not make it a sound business decision just because I want it. COYS
peterballb
peterballb.... If we do manage to win some trophies and a title or two it'll be in spite of Levy and not because of him. The best that could be said of him would be that it was more by luck than judgement. The biggest improvement in the ENIC years has been their property portfolio.
thfc1882whl
Levy is fast going from hero to zero and so he should. The seemingly blatant refusal to invest where we need it most is telling.
Cape Town Spurs
thfc1882whl, people were saying the same when Ramos came in. So close. But for a couple of bucks? And spend we did to reward the manager who got us a trophy. 46M GBP net spend of which 43M GBP was for Chimbonda, Keane, Defoe, Palacios all after Harry came in. I would argue that that threw us way off budget and way off target, but ENIC supported Harry, as they have with AVB (60M in transfers in when our squad was bloated to begin with). As I said, I will wait until May to celebrate any huge profits last season. I suspect they were all eaten up by salary. Bale, Walker, Dempsey, Vertonghen, and others all have buyout figures in their contracts no doubt. We are soundly run. Could be better. Could be way worse. I still maintain that I would spend on players like Son, Willian and Negredo and give a serious punt on Sissokho. Lot of money but I imagine all could be sold to recoup if not make a profit. Sign them all and 10M could immediately be recouped (if not more) with sales of Rose, Hudd and Gomes. I see it as a calculated risk, but, as I said earlier, perhaps AVB does not want anything to do with any of them. COYS
peterballb
thfc1882whl, that, if it comes to be, will be becase of him. There are numerous examples of teams crashing due to overspending and poor fiscal management. You can't win if you are in the Championship. Ramos set up the team to stop Chelsea doing what Chelsea wanted. We were fortunate, but the game plan was spot on. AVB is much better than Ramos, IMO, at setting up teams. He has coped really well with injuries and has kept everyone focused. He has eased back Parker. He did rush back Dembele, but I feel he thought he had no option. BAE was very rusty yesterday. He is being eased back in. I would not be surprised if Kaboul did not start until late March or April. This is a long term plan. AVB should have been well aware of what he was in for when he signed on the dotted line. COYS
peterballb
thfc1882whl, it should be noted that trophie, titls etc all pad the value of the franchise. As the second largest shareholder, it would seem to me that is in his best interests, though he will not be steered away from balancing the books and getting the stadium built. Look at how much Spurs has appreciated since ENIC took over. 5 or 6 fold. Not bad ROI. COYS
peterballb
Ignoring anything else - is there any spurs fan who does not think we could do with another striker ?
Windlespur
peter you keep saying that ENIC won't gamble BUT they are...on a huge scale they've taken their eye off the ball....this isn't a franchise we can't just bump along at the bottom for a few years and bounce back....if you try it you'll end up relegated and you don't always come back...look at wolves, they can't even finish the stadium that took them down...ENIC ARE gambling...let's hope it pays off but in the meantime they must invest in the team...or it could be game over for all of us.
shedboy2
Windlespur- I like it, fresh thinking a new spin...I'm sure there are a couple that think Defoe and Ade are all we need but as they're their agents it doesn't really count..
shedboy2
saints do us a favour...
shedboy2
peterballb...... I don't recall many people saying that Ramos only needed money spent on him. More a case of saying wtf, how could anyone treat Jol so badly.
thfc1882whl
shedboy, come on. As I said earlier, before Jol's 5th place finishes and the start of our recent foray back in to Europe, we wer the peers of Villa and Everton in the PL. You looked at the three teams at the start of the year and said that they'd all be in the battle for the 2 remaining Europe spots. Well, we succeeded, Everton didn't, but both held the line financially. Everton are on solid ground, but do not have the resources we do. Villa gambled to stay up. It paid off and will now possibly bury them. There is nio money to spend. We have qualified for the Cl and won one title. 5th, 5th, 11th (CC win) 8th (CC final), 4th (FA Cup semi), 5th, 4th. Not bad for the past 7 seasons and we are currently fourth. No, ENIC will not gamble that away. They will take calculated risks at best. That said, in those same years Spurs have gone from being worth 243M to 564M. ENIC are doing a good job. There is no way in heck Lewis is remotely unhappy with any of that.

Windlespur, of course we need a striker. We also need a string-puller and wing options for Bale and Lennon, but I don't see AVB agreeing to anything that does not suit him and I do not see Levy sanctioning any deals above valuation or out of our salary structure. It's the same old. I just don't get why people don't accept it. We are a very good option for players. Not as good as RM, ManU, Chelsea etc, and we won't pay like fools. If our offer is the best one on the table when the window is drawing to a close, the quality we need may well accept to come.

I have to wonder who is spreading all of this Levy/AVB rift crap. Last word I heard from Moutinho was that he preferred to go to PSG or to Juve, rather than come to the EPL. Doesn't sound promising. We could buy all of Belhanda, M'Vila and Sissokhko and pay them for less than Moutinho would cost transfer plus salary. He's good, but I can't really say he'll be any better than Oscar in the PL. COYS
peterballb
Say what you like about ENIC and Levy - the man they appointed - AVB now has a small bit of breathing space between us and the chasing pack. Everton drawing tonight was another great result for us. Now we need to get back to winning ways and banish the ghosts of last season! Oh and sign one decent striker!
Slurms McKenzie
I think people need to appreciate that head-hunting is very commonplace in business and that includes football. What Levy did with Ramos was simply what any senior exec does when faced with getting rid of the incumbent. I bet Levy did the same with AVB whilst Harry was still in the hot seat. The only difference is that the media didn't find out.
muttley
Peter the trouble with history is where you choose to look from...imo you can learn from it but the fact is we are where we are- a top4 team. As for there is no money then of course they lied when they said they would spend all the cash on Moutinho....so If they are liars why would you trust them? What's the difference between a calculated risk and a gamble??? They are gambling that our demographic won't crash, that the economy will be able to sustain the price of tickets, that web feeds won't crush TV money etc or perhaps THEY won't be around to see the result of their 'calculated risk'...
shedboy2
peterballb...... To some of us, THFC is not a franchise, it's so so so much more than that mate. I'm sure it is to you too when all is said and done. It's an emotional thing, a romantic thing, it is not an unemotional thing. We lose and it hurts, we win and it hurts so good. And that's why it hurts to see us being run in such a second rate manner on the footballing side. I could weep when I see people post that they will settle for 4th. We are Tottenham Hotspur and we should never settle for third loser we should be striving for number 1. And we are striving in every area except that which requires the most attention. Llorente is /was a doable deal if only we showed some balls. I'm sick to death of hearing the same old tired excuses for failure in the market, much as I'm sure that everyone is sick to death of my ranting against ENIC (I'm sure sick of typing it). COYS
thfc1882whl
Slurms.. If you fire enough arrows, one will inevitably hit the bullseye and we've certainly fired enough.
thfc1882whl
tfc1882whl, actually, after the Cup win and while Ramos was deciding what of the players he was left with would suit him, and while dealing with berbatov and Keane, people were suggesting just that. People wanted the money on Berba's relacement spent before we sold Berba. People were happy about Modric. Mixed on Bentley. Intrigued by Gio and Taraabt. Happy to have Gomes coming in as Robbo had not been the same since the England goal. We were talking of signing Arshavin and a whole host of other top prospects. People were excited about the prospect of King and Woody. There was a fair amount of optimism that was countered by the too familiar, they aint English refrain. But I digress. We had a great pre-season and then the wheels fell off. Berba became a distraction. Keane left. No striker in but Bent. Gomes was terrible, the MF was a mess. New players all over the pitch andmistakes galore. Ramos probably should have started 4-4-2, but he wanted to play his style. The team was a mess against any "typical" British setup, although we looked really good in the Chelsea draw because they played more of a Continental style. It just wasn't working. After the rumours came out after the 6th game that Levy was talking to Harry, it was done. There was no reason for the players to pull for this manager. AVB suffered the same fate last year at Chelsea. You can't fire 25 players, it's the manager that goes. The news that Jol was no longer manager broke while he was in the middle of a game. Ramos found out 2 games before his demise. I would say that these decisions, and the Modric is not for sale at any price, were the worst Levy decisions in his tenure. (I could defend him and blame Comolli and his anger towards Comolli for the first two and his anger at Modric for meeting with RA for the last, but he has to be better than that - so no excuses) I like to think he has learned from his mistakes. His sacking of Harry was done in the right way. I think Spurs are moving forward, just not at the speed of light as some would like. Incidently, I believe we had the third best team the past three seasons and could have won the title the last two. We are weaker in personnel this season but much stronger as a team. Steady ahead. Striker, winger or two and a MF would be really nice. COYS
peterballb
I'm not calling for light speed peter, I'm calling for natural progression and it just ain't happening, regression for sure if our failure to invest again results in failure to qualify for the CL. Rest assured though, ENIC will happily trouser millions from the sale of Bale and others. Just don't say you didn't see it coming when our playing assets are stripped and we're left floundering whilst Big Joe the Bond Villain suns himself in his Bahamas tax haven with a bucketload of Ambre Solare bought for him with yours and my hard earned cash.
thfc1882whl
Look, I like Frank am ticked when we don't win. Ruins my day if not the weekend, unless we played well. The year we qualified for CL, we threw away 21 points in games when we dominated. I was some kind of mad that season, not ecause we finished 4th, but because we were so close to achieving what I believed our squad talent was capable of. Again, the last two seasons, the same, although we did not dominate matches as we did in 2009/2010. I was less angry the past two seasons (that is, after I got over the fact that our manager was throwing away cups because he has too many in his collection). This season, I have been relatively happy. The performances have been a mixed bag. Some good. Some poor. Most insipid and ok. But what has me contente is that I see the growth within the team. An ethos that is building. Tactics. Players buying in. Players giving their all. Watch both ManU games again and tell me when a Spurs side has ever worked that hard for each other. It's been a long time. There's lots of work still to be done. AVB and the lads should be ecstatic. Any additio to the squad at this time needs to be properly thought out. I want a striker, wingers and MF, but, and it's a big but (not mine), the players who are brought in need to be the right guys. It can't just be done for the sake of it. We are on a great run of form. 9-1-4 in the last 14 with 27 goals for and 7 conceded. 7 clean sheets. Chelsea will drop points. The focus needs to be there. There is no one asking out. This is a team. COYS
peterballb
I think that half the problem could well be that Levy has alienated so many people within the game that he's now gonna get his pants pulled down on any deal we try to make. Our weaknesses are obvious to all and sundry, so why wouldn't anyone try and take a hard line when dealing with Levy after all the sheet he has dished out in the past?
thfc1882whl
If Bale goes, it's because he wants to. CL will not stop that. Levy will get his value for him and players ill be bought. We will make a small profit or suffer a mall loss.

As for Lewis, I don't care what he does because he is the owner (he didn't ask me). Frankly, I was hoping that the Steve Nash group was going to convince Lewis to sell, but it was apparently too rich for their blood. (Spurs owned by a Canadian - that would be classic) I just don't sit up nights wondering why he won't do this or that. He's not going to reach in to his pockets. It's why the players I suggest, by and large, are guys I think would fit within our salary structure. The reason you buy Willian and Son is so that if Bale goes, there's someone else who can play wing (and add tons in merchandise in South Korea and South Korean Communities). Negredo is being hocked by his owner, but nothing is happening. He will decide what is best for him at the last. Every player has his price. Berba, Carrick, Keane, Modric all had a price. We got full value on them all. We are decades away from being able to buy who we want, if ever we will get there. COYS
peterballb
peterballb...... You don't have to tell me what the team has done this season mate, I've stated many times that given the fact that AVB has been given little, if any, support from upstairs, what he's achieved has been nothing short of remarkable. I can even understand why he wasn't backed in the summer but to fail him in the market now would be disgraceful. You may disagree and that's fine mate, but to me ENIC are like a dead weight and they're holding us back. If we're skint then just tell us, we don't care, in fact we'll admire what they're doing with so little money. We'd understand if we were in the same boat as Everton and we'd respect them for what they're doing with so little. Let's be honest though, we're all scared stiff that they're gonna do to us what they did to Rangers and we don't wanna rock the boat just in case they bail out with the only lifeboat left.
thfc1882whl
thfc1882whl, none of that will stop Levy being Levy. He will not pay over the odds on fee or on salary. He is prepared to wait to the end. All other owners who have a budget do it, why shouldn't he? Great example was Pienaar. Harry wanted him. His salary demands were too rich for Everton. They got as much out of Levy as they could. He rarely played, got hurt, was left aside, but then, he got loaned back and became a cog in Everton's team. They wanted him back. Levy made a profit and Pienaar got the wages from Everton they had previously refused to pay. No doubt Everton were not happy, but if they didn't want the player, they didn't have to do the deal. If the best offer on the table on January 31 for Negredo is ours, he will sign with us regardless of how anyone feels about the chairman. I would even say that what you look at as a scarlet letter, he wears as a badge of pride. COYS
peterballb
thfc1882, "dead weight holding us back?" has our league position improved under ENIC when compared to the 10 years before? is our financial situation stroner now than when ENIC took over? the answer to both questions as a matter of fact is yes. I struggle to understand your point of view, if it is not based on fact can you explain what foundation it has?
tophobunty
thfc we have spent 60M on players. How was he not backed. Lloris, Vertonghen, Dembele, Dempsey, Sigurdsson, Ade. These guys have all played a role. Fryers and Holtby will to when their time comes. Come on. COYS
peterballb
peterballb... I know he won't pay over the odds, or the going rate for that matter and that's his problem.
tophobounty... We were in such dire straits when ENIC took over that it would have been difficult to do anything but improve the situation. They're venture capitalist and that's just what venture capitalist do. Identify a struggling 'brand', invest big early to get the staff (fans) on board, strip assets (property in N17, Chigwell and players), they'll be gone either before the stadium is completed or within a year of completion. It's all about the money with that mob, don't be fooled by the 'The game is about glory' hoardings.
thfc1882whl
capitalists, sorry.
thfc1882whl
tophobunty... Sorry about getting the name wrong mate, no offence intended. Maybe I should have said. Much like a manager can take a team as far as he's capable, is it so unreasonable to suggest that an owner can also do the same. I think that ENIC have maybe held on for two or three seasons too many but that goose is going to lay their golden egg soon and that's what they're waiting for. imo.
thfc1882whl
If I were ENIC, I would not sell until after the new stadium is open. That's what they will do. So accept that or stump the 750M plus it would take to get Lewis and Levy to walk. Then do it your way. I'll still be here to provide input whether desired or not. There is no buyer in the wings and they aren't looking to sell. I would also suggest that they will get more for a CL club with a 56k seat stadium, sponsorship deals, than they will for a stripped down mid-table team that can barely attract 30k most nights. Levy gains nothing by going backwards. COYS
peterballb
THFC1882 i dont understand the logic that they have held on for 2-3 seasons too long as in 2 of the last 3 seassons we have had our highest finish under their tenure, which is progress in the positive direction, again they are facts, NOT my opinion. And you claim we will not pay the going rate, do you suggest that every other club is happy to sell to us at under market value? Surely they can all not be so badly managed/directed? Think with some empathy, are you as a person happy to consistantly pay over the odds for things you buy? do you know many people who are? No will be the answer in an honest world. So why should ENIC pay over the odds? You mention emotion earlier, I see emotion all over your posts talking with peter, nothing wrong with emotion, just that humans distort facts when fuelled by it, it seems to me that's what you have done on this thread. I want ENIC to spend more and to have developed the stadium faster, but I accept solid progress. I argued with emotion and passion last year not to accept 4th, to strive for second and to achieve third. On this one I just look at factual positive progress.
tophobunty
THFC1882 no probs ref the name, I got Frunks name wrong today, whoops done it again!
tophobunty
"They're venture capitalist and that's just what venture capitalist do. Identify a struggling 'brand', invest big early to get the staff (fans) on board, strip assets (property in N17, Chigwell and players), they'll be gone either before the stadium is completed or within a year of completion. It's all about the money with that mob, don't be fooled by the 'The game is about glory' hoardings."

Ah, 1882, you're catching on. They're like Mitt Romney and all the rest of the vulture capitalists. But, so far ENIC has been fairly benign compared to many other vulture capitalists. We haven't as yet been plunged into major debt, for example, and our parts haven't been systematically plundered. But the choices these days, and it's really luck rather than choice about who ends up in ownership of a club is either vulture capitalists or whore mongers who buy a team for cheap thrills.

Total knobhead
I think peter is right. there's no advantage to having the club sink now and then sell it. better to build up its value before selling, and that includes establishing it as a club that fights for a top three or four spot for several years consecutively. Otherwise it's better to buy a Birmingham and strip it quickly, which is what has happened there.
Total knobhead
Guys, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm sure there'll be plenty more chances to debate this before ENIC show their true colours one way or another. Thanks for the chat anyway guys, take it easy and COYS. Night all
thfc1882whl
Some great posts on this thread. Really good read. I'm just going to say one thing......WE NEED ANOTHER STRIKER NOW......and I know nobody is going to disagree with me.
Madaboutspurs
Can someone please explain to me the relationship between ENIC, Joe Lewis, our board of directors, and Daniel Levy? I'm a bit confused and not ashamed to admit it
tengboon
Can someone please explain to me the relationship between ENIC, Joe Lewis, our board of directors, and Daniel Levy? I'm a bit confused and not ashamed to admit it
tengboon
Madabout, I totally disagree, I think with Defoe alone we've got more than enough strikers. ;)
tengboon
tengboon, I also do not know the ins and outs of the management side of our great club. We're just interested in the footballing side of things, I guess. Like I always say, it's all about the 3 points per game. Don't get me wrong tengboon, I like Defoe, he is one of us, SPURS all the way but he blows hot and cold and he is just icy at present. But you're right, Defoe is lethal in front of goal and when he pulls the trigger the ball is just going to end up in 1 place ;-)
Madaboutspurs
Strong Twitter rumors that Holtby could be done in 2 days & in squad for Leeds FA cup game.
sydqcb5
Hope you're right there syd. I youtubed him today and that boy can play. Attacking minded player. We can do with another one of them.
Madaboutspurs
what_sux, just saw your post on the Utd thread. I really liked your AVB celebratory fist pumping clips. I am sure ox and everyone here are ok with that. If you can put up those of Stefan Freund jumping up and down when we score, that's good too :-))
Madaboutspurs
These days, when I want to see a pretty Korean girl, I just click on the Gangnam clip on you tube . I tell you 1.2 billion hits on that are not just for the song and Psy. lol
Madaboutspurs
Madabout, I totally disagree, I think with Defoe alone we've got more than enough strikers. ;)
tengboon
tengboon, I'll give it a go. As I understand things, Daniel Levy is the Chairman of the Board of ENIC. Daniel Levy owns 29% of ENIC and Tavistock (which is owned by Joe Lewis) owns 71%. In 2011 ENIC owned 85% of all Tottenham Hotspur Shares. The company is now private so as to facilitate the funding required for the Northumberland Development project. So, Lewis owns Tavistock who owns 71% of ENIC with Levy owning 29% in ENIC and being the Chairman of the board of ENIC who owns 85% of the shares of Tottenham Hotspurs. So, anything that is good for the valuation of Spurs is really good for Levy and Lewis. Thus, I would argue they have no interest in seeing Spurs do anything but succeed and move in to a larger building. They will also always be loathe to do anything that harms the solid financials of the club (ie running unmanageable debt or investing heavily in assets that will not have a later value)

AS for Defoe, he is not even our top scorer on a goals per 90 minute basis. Bale is actually slightly better (both a little above .48 goals/90 minutes though EA sports numbers are even worse for Defoe). Dempsey is not far behind at over .38 goals per 90 minutes on the pitch. I'm going with Mad on this one. WE need a striker. 1 in 8 Defoe is not cutting it. 33 shots, 1 goal in that time. Just awful. COYS
peterballb
yes, Mad, his critics say, 'he does not guarentee best passing acccuracy but thats because he always passes forward. Not a finished article yet. If he improves his judgement, he could be one of the best'. Btw, Holtby has the 2nd highest through balls made this Bundesliga season (7) behind Diego (9).
sydqcb5
Talking abt through balls, anyone noticed Defoe has fewer off sides this season
Madaboutspurs
Peterballb, awesome breakdown of shares and ownership, exactly what I was looking for. I did a Coopsie with my sarcasm on the striker, sorry you a madabout fell for it. Of COURSE we need a striker, more than anything! xxx
tengboon
Who owns the other 15% of THFC shares, is it the public, outside of Enic?
tengboon
tengboon, I didn't really. If you looked at my post, you'll see the ;-) at the end.
Madaboutspurs
Tengboon "Can someone please explain to me the relationship between ENIC, Joe Lewis, our board of directors, and Daniel Levy? I'm a bit confused and not ashamed to admit it"....... peterballb has given his opinion but I find it easier to imagine Lewis as that Bond villain Bloefeld with Levy being the white cat that sits on his lap. Or if you wanted a more modern analogy, think of Dr Evil as Lewis with Levy being mini me only slightly shorter and not so bright ;-)
thfc1882whl
Madaboutspurs, it's only because teams are playing so deep against us. It was impossible for an offside to be given against QPR since the outfield players spend 90 minutes in a pyramid formation on the goal line.

The ENIC debate again. I think marmite isn't the right term for it. I think ENIC run the club well and we're now a consistent top 5 team, so obviously we've grown since they took over. We've grown steadily, without a sudden influx of cash, no superstars which tip us over the edge, making us unsustainable.

Having said that, they're obviously frustrating at times. There have been some times I consider to be farcical. Selling Berbatov without bringing in a replacement is a huge example, or even really the last couple of seasons where heavy investment has been needed up front and instead we just plod along.

Before Dempsey's goal went in I was fuming. Not because I was disappointed with the performance, I thought we played very well, but I looked at the bench and thought "how on earth can he change this?" There was no sub to be made, neither like for like or something a bit different to come on with/instead of Defoe. 2 strikers isn't enough, especially when one has spend the season either injured, out of match practice, s**t or in Africa.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
ENIC/LEVY?LEWIS. who ever is calling the shots are doing right by our beloved THFC. Yes we need a striker, we can go on about not scoring goals but the defence is getting tighter now and we are slowly conceeding less goals or +/- is getting better ... sorry but was this not supposed to be a transitional season for AVB to get his ethos on the team and how he wants them played ... the first window HR spent 42 million on players and only Defoe is left of them he brought back Chimbonda, Keane Defoe, Palacios etc .. only Defoe is left out of them and Kaboom .... THFC are moving up well and we have to remember yes it is for the fans but if we do not have the likes of DL at the helm we will have no THFC to support I fully support the regime as it is .... I bet we would be 10/11th under HR now.
E17YID
I think it's easy to say they are doing a good job....but there is a difference between management and players on the pitch. There is a delay in management between decisions and results...after all Arry got us 4th so he's a genius and should stay (that is a sarcastic example) There are other factors...in ENIC case the factor is they will make their moeny based on selling our club and look to be gaining the biggest return from the real estate. Of course it would be great if we were CL as well but that's the rub...it's not as important to them as the infastructure. So there is a conflict between what is good for the owners and what would bring success on the pitch...after-all you would have expected owners who were ambitious on the pitch to have invested in playing staff when we qualified for the CL wouldn't you??? We'll see signs of their stewardship if we get a striker or not this window?, if we keep our players in the summer? and most importantly in 10 years if we're all sitting in a new stadium paying fair prices watching high quality football....as opposed to 5k empty seats, relegation dogfights and ENIC just a memory as the owners who sold us to the latest business shark...
shedboy2
People are pointing out that ENIC will make its money from the real estate associated with the club. But let's not forget that this is in an area in which there was a massive riot not that long ago. It takes a real roll of the dice to build a Sainsbury in such a place, no? And to stake one's fortune on the future financial success of N17 at this time. What do they know that I don't?
Total knobhead
The most simple way to look at the ownership performance, of any of the top 20 richest football clubs on the entire planet, is to look at what titles and trophy's they have won during their ownership... Well currently at this exact point in time, the ENIC corporation, despite having 2 board members worth a combined 4.5 billion, (money therefore cannot be the excuse) have the worst trophy per season percentage of any owner of THFC owners going back over half a century. This is a statistical fact! But it's far worse than that... THFC under ENIC and ENIC'S former business partner Sir Sugar (Sugar was a share holder and director for 7 seasons after Levy became chairman) have failed to reach the final of any major Cup tournament, other than the b team League Cup, since the 1991 FA Cup final... Any Spurs fan who could be happy with our current owners, based on their appalling record of success in cup competitions, as well as having only reached the Champions League on one occasion in 13 seasons, whilst the clubs biggest rivals (historically speaking) Arsenal have been ever present in the CL throughout the entire ENIC era, cannot be real Tottenham Hotspur fans in my book... I mean how can they tell us what a great job the richest owners of club in it's history have done, during a period when both Arsenal and Chelsea have totally dominated us???
pelebro
Lets look at it another way... If every Tottenham Hotspur fan in the entire world could have voted for the new owners of THFC back in 2001, would a single Spurs fan have voted Levy in, if they had known in advance that during the next 12 seasons the club would only win 1 League Cup, would fail to reach the final of the FA Cup and that during the next 13 seasons, Levy would only qualify for the Champions League on 1 occasion, whilst Arsenal and CFC would be ever present... And how many Tottenham fans would have voted ENIC in if they had known that 13 long years (and counting) after Daniel Levy announced that building the club a new stadium was a priority, would fail to deliver, whilst are great rivals Arsenal, would build the best state of the art stadium in the country. Not a single 'real' Tottenham Hotspur fan, apart from Danny Boy Levy's internet creations, would have said yes to ENIC. THIS IS THE TRUTH!!!
pelebro
 

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