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4.3m loss, but we still need to think big (ish).

Turn-over down 12% and a £4.3m loss on the financial year ending both of June 2012, is hardly positive news, however Tottenham still need to be positive in their ambitions to retain their challenge for the top four and beyond.

I suppose it puts to bed talk from many of us that we have generated big money from sales compared with buying in players, as clearly that money balanced the books as a whole and with additional and exceptional expenses of the new training complex and stadium development preparations, you imagine that already those costs are weighing heavily on the clubs balance sheet and you imagine that once there is a structured funding and sponsorship deals, such as naming rights etc, Mr Levy will sleep more soundly in his bed and hopefully the greater certainty and perhaps structure of spending will make buying and selling players a little easier.

Despite Spurs selling big with Modric, VdV and a few others, we have also bought more and in reality the sums for ins compared with outs, probably don't differ greatly, so talk from fans about still having the Modric money, is false, whilst any accumulated wealth from previous windows has already be spent on running the club. We perhaps also might consider that we have probably looked to pay the likes of Gareth Bale more, but are still looking comfortable with regards to maintaining sensible wages compared with turn-over, so Financial fair play seems not to be a worry.

It does of course re-emphasis the need to keep trimming the squad of unwanted players, which in turn allows for development of youth by freeing up space and I feel the policy of bringing through the likes of Caulker, Townsend and several more, will continue and though the need for a striker is still evident, I still maintain that it might be at the cost of either Defoe or Adebayor in the summer and not in bringing in a third senior player, as perhaps Harry Kane will be asked to share the 3rd choice position with Clint Dempsey. Clever spending and continued adding of versatile and young players is something I believe will continue and was also part of the reasoning why the club appointed a manager who embraces development and look for the tomorrow as opposed to the today.

Clearly any club or business wants to see big profits and bulging bank balances, however it seems clear that Spurs are heading in the right direction, building for the long term, but only continued strong house-keeping and clever buying and selling of players will allow us to keep pace with those clubs around us, who lets not forget, all of them make massively more revenue that we can even dream of and regaining a CL place next season and progressing with the new stadium are more important than ever, if we are to maintain even our current levels of success...




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The journalist

Writer: OxfordSpur Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Wednesday January 23 2013

Time: 9:21AM

Your Comments

That's a bit depressing. Certainly don't see us spending £20m on a striker now.
Kes80
shocked to hear we made a loss. puts things into perspective as to why we are not buying big and I agree to that. I think us fans forget about generated income from sales, sponsors, merchandise, gate receipts and focus on we sold that player where's the money. I other income has dropped which it will have as we are in a recession then this has a huge impact on the clubs finances. Stick with living within our means no amount of trophies sat in a cupboard is worth bankruptcy.

We have to be patient for success.
thfan
Those financial figures dont't include the modric and vdv sales because they were old after june 2012
spurticus87
I am not an accountant but were Modric and VDV not sold after June 2012 and thus not included in the accounts. If I am right the money from their sales is still available
Big Ron
Don't expect big named players or older players wanting a final big pay packet expect more of what we have. Young versatile players that AB can bring the best out of and with a bit of luck we may win a trophy or get CL. It's a difficult time financially and I don't want us paying huge amounts of money for a player taking a chance too risky.

We do need to trim the squad asap so as we all know the likes of JJ, Gomes, Bentley need to be off the payroll asap. Still make huge loses over them and I expect Ade to go and a younger fresher more committed striker to be brought in in Summer one that will cost less. My question would be if we could make one purchase what position would that be? Striker or Creative Midfielder or Winger?
thfan
Not sure how we made a loss, we bought parker and loaned adebayor last summer, sold pav, hutton, kranjc, crouch and palacios etc. had two freebies in the january window and a lot f our players like bentley and jenas were loane out covering wages. I do not believe we have lost money someone has coked the books to avoid tax wether that money has been hidden in other business adventures of gone to completely pay of the training ground and into stadium develpoment. We only spent 5 milion on parker yet had over 20 million from crouch and palacios!! something smells very very very fishy
spurticus87
this site is dsgusting lately advertising keeps freezing my computer and missing words out!!!
spurticus87
Turnover down 12% and a waiting list of 32,000 season ticket holders at least £32m in extra revenue.....dont see any backer worrying too much about spending another £20m on a decent striker in the short term to get us the success that we need in the mid term to fill the NPD to capacity every game (provided it is going to be built of course!) but hey! This is Danny boy were talking about.......let's see which way he shuffles the deck this transfer time!
OyVeh Maria
Good point Big Ron and spurticus87 - so effectively financial year 2012/13 we needed to make up a deficit of 4.3m but we still don't know what the situation is because this financial year will not be revealed until six months after the end again next January. We don't know how we have done in bringing other income in whether there has been a drop due to the recession plus I am sure Ade wages has crippled us and his signing on fee. Also increase for Bale wages. I expect Lloris to be on a good whack. This article shows us we have no idea of the real figures until they are published so we have to trust Levy and the board when spending money. I for one wouldn't want the responsibility, there is a fine line between success and bankruptcy.
thfan
spurticus87 - I used to have the same problem but Big C explained to me about making sure I have Goodle Chrome ad blocker on and since I have had no problems.
thfan
Let's not get excited about Modders and VDV being sold after June.... We also bought Siggy, Verts, Ade, Dembele, Lloris and Dempsey after June as well.... That's 56m although generated 63m in player sales after that date.... so there is a small plus.....
MK-Spurs
cheers thfan going to sort that little nuisance out now
spurticus87
What is the news on the stadium where is it to be and when does work start. This is something I haven't managed to follow as I am ill and only have a certain amount of cognition available so that goes on watching the games and sharing my thoughts on this site. In summary what is the news on the stadium please.
thfan
OH MY GOD! Don't you realise how clever Mr Levy is? The financial year for THFC ended on June 30th. You are all disappointed we made a loss. But you are failing to factor in the sales on Modric, VDV, GDS etc that occurred AFTER this date. You are also failing to factor in payments for Kranjcar, Corluka and Pav which were on terms to be paid over the course of time. When I do my accounts for my business my year end is August 31. They are available to HMRC by the end of September. I love how Mr Levy has bought them to the public attention in the week before transfer deadline. Now he's made it look like we have no money which must surely help us negotiate better fees?
Sebthespur
I have passed a few comments on to the main men, but certainly having cookies set to block some or all of ads etc will potentially cause problems. Sadly it is becoming more common as advertisers demand more bang for their bucks and costs for an independent site continue to increase as they are for all of us.
oxfordspur
...spurticus....Merchandise Revenue sales up...all PL league games fully attended, even League Cup and FA Cup attendance above average ...all away ticket allocations sold and TV Revenue up.....! its called creative accountancy.......12% reduction in turnover, can only be an exceptional item because the new training ground was already in the budgets unless HMRC have slapped a bill on the new training ground as a taxable asset. I wonder how much draw down or dividends big Jo decided to take out of the club this year... 4.3 m loss! ... sounds about the right price you would pay for a Matisse , Gaugin or Renoir ......
OyVeh Maria
I don't get this. But companies can alter figures to fit their own agenda. Wouldn't look good to be trying to get players for next to nothing if we announced massive profits.
Tottenham Hotcore
Some things that we must consider when looing at these figures, wage ceiling has increased we are now paying some players £100k a week. untill this summer and still now have had lots of players who werent being utilised and on decent wages. Biggest point thouh last seasons cup runs were an embarressment to our club if we had got further into the europa league we would not be looking at a loss.
gibbothfc
Yep'...keep trimming the squad and keep searching for that young, hungry,6ft+,strong, two footed striker.
82spursdebut
Like everyone’s mentioned above it doesn’t include some of the bigger sales or purchases. We were about 12m up on transfers over the summer so if we look at it face on we should be about £6-7m up as it stands now. It doesn’t sound a lot but compared to other teams around our position that is phucking spectacular!!

We are obviously not going to make a £30m signing this window but id like to see some like Son to come in, not too pricy but may push us just enough to stay in touch with 3rd. The figures that were announced were not unexpected, im pretty sure Levy had it memorised down to a few pence, these Guys aren’t stupid. A good run in the Europe league and FA cup wouldn’t help the balance sheet either, but we need to make sure we have the necessary tools to compete on three fronts. Think AVB has managed it very well so far.
hudderspur
Mr Levy has a plan... and his emphasis according to his statement was to build the new stadium to the same high standards as the new training ground.

Lets not forget that the man has a first class honours degree from Cambridge University in "Land Economy".

So i am guessing we should have some trust in him when it comes to the infrastructure of the new stadium plans and what it could potentially bring to the club and its future..
Yidmarks
so to sum up - we are skint because we've spent our money on building works and we will remain skint because we will continue to spend our money on building works. In fact we will have to have less football players so that we can employ contractors and the quality of football players we have in the future will not be as high as we would like because we can't afford them so fingers crossed we can find a young player who turns out to be good....this situation will continue for some years.
shedboy2
Yidmarks- Levy's plan is to sell up stadium included and make a fortune for Levy...his focus is on real estate, not football...why oh why would you trust him???
shedboy2
increased overheads is not the same as posting a reduced turnover, the 4.2m loss would be stated because of increased oveheads, the statement on loss istates reduced turnover......where did we lose turnover.?...in which part of the Clubs operational elements did we lose money? Gate receipts...Merchandise...sponsorship.....TV Rights.....if the announcement had stated that the club was over geared then that would not look good to potential investors but to show a trading loss and therefore no pre tax profit is a much better vehicle...but what does that do to us buying in this window?..exactly what Danny boy wants...what ever that is
OyVeh Maria
shedboy2.. Levy is a businessman first, and a spurs supporter second.

When u reach the financial heights that he and Lewis have, you would want to make your beloved Spurs even better...

It is like a big train set for them.... they can play until its time to cash in... As maybe you would...
Yidmarks
Creative accounting? LOL ! We fans really have no idea what it costs to run a big football club. I have reviewed most of the accounts as they were presented over the last 6 years and THFC has only once in that time made decent money and that was about 5 years ago. We have always balanced the books on profits made from player sales. That is why I keep posting here that there is no fund where the net gain goes into to be used to buy new players as many of you seem to think. THFC borrows money to buy players because we make a profit on most sales we can service our debt and so our loan facility remains available in normal times. However when we operate at breakeven levels or small losses (as this is) AND incur extra debt to fund a new training ground AND new Stadium then our ability to repay the new higher debt is called into question and the lenders slow down the availability of money. It's the same as you getting credit as a single, highly paid person living at home vs being a married man with a wife and 4 kids and a big mortgage and a car and wanting to go on a vacation! Will the bank lend you enough for a month (Damiao), 2 weeks (Negredo) or 1 week (Hooper)....
jvd
yidmarks...it's big train set to Roman Abramovic....as you point out Levy is a businessman first, he makes his money through ENIC he will only make the parts of Spurs better that will maximise his returns so whilst it would be nice to have better players if it's a choice between that and and him making money he'll choose the later....
shedboy2
Heung min son....looks a better financial risk (if no more than £12m')...than Hooper at £8 to £10mill'.
82spursdebut
I think Mr.Levy will be with spurs for another 10 years minimum
82spursdebut
JVD's right....no big transfers from now until the stadium is paid off....we'll be looking at transfer windows to see who we might lose rather than who we might buy....and I guess over that time we'll lose many overseas fans and fail to capture new ones....IF we don't back AVB in the window do not be surprised if he doesn't stay past his 3year contract(as is being rumoured) ....so Levy has a balancing act but he can't scrimp too much on player buys....or he won't fill the stadium in 10years time.
shedboy2
fair enough JVD but then they shouldn't distinguish the loss as a reduction in turnover...if the running costs, which you refer to, have increased then the loss is as a result of increased operational costs not a reduction in turnover .......reduction in revenue is not the same as an increase in overheads! which brings me back to the point...where was the downturn in revenue...we can all see the increase in costs but where was our income reduced....if they had posted a trading loss due to exceptional items or an increase in costs I wouldnt be sticking a big fat question mark behind their statement!
OyVeh Maria
82spursdebut- I think that's about right...we are his retirement plan...that doesn't mean we'll be an exciting CL pushing team the whole time though...what's good for ENIC is not always what's good for THFC.
shedboy2
Spurs fanITK say Negredo is in as new Striker
sydqcb5
sydqcb5-that's what we need.
shedboy2
ox its upsetting when you log into the site on your phone and you are diverted to a porn site? Surely there are young fans out there that dont need to targeted with such things. I have been meaning to bring this topic up and as much as I respect that the Vital site needs to make money,but I get very annoyed with the above.
Mix26
I'm still expecting spurs to make One decent purchase, this window. I'll..be excited if it's "Son". I think he would do the trick for spurs and Enic.
82spursdebut
sydqcb5 - what the F id spursfan ITK? Another forum or summat? Dnt get me all excited for nothing : )
hudderspur
HAPPY BIRTHDAY to TOTTENHAM HOTCORE :)... Absolutely cracking member of this site (one of of the few remaining) and an bloody good bloke too. Hope you have a cracxking day buddy :)
coopsieyid
Ox - something has to give eventually. You quite rightly point out in your article that we need to be financially sound and a well run club. We are. But, if we want to compete at the top and win trophies (which we are close to doing with a LITTLE bit of investment now) then ENIC and/or Lewis and/or Levy need to put their hand in their pockets now. I'm not saying they have to plough in hundreds of millions for players but some personal investment by football club owners is the nature of successful football club ownership. The way it is currently is that our owners want the club to be self-funding in every aspect, whether that be player transfers or paying for the stadium. That is why our past 6 transfer windows or so have been more or less nil nett spend windows. Also it is why the progress of the new stadium is so, so painfuly slow. There are ways of making stadium developments move ahead quickly (just ask Arsenal) but it needs a little bit of personal investment today for longer-term gain tomorrow. ENIC can't have it all ways. They can't realistically expect the club to self-fund the development of the new stadium as well as player transfers and then complain that we don't regularly compete in the CL. To regularly be in the CL we need bigger gate receipts and a few better players. ENIC say if we get into the CL the club can then afford to do both of these things. We say if ENIC don't help by investing a LITTLE now then we won't get into the CL in the first place. Once again we remain in this pathetic and futile chicken and egg Mexican stand off situation. ENIC / Levy / Lewis all know that football clubs need funding if they are going to be successful. If you want the club to self-fund everything then things will happen very, very slowly (as demonstrated by our non-existent new stadium). Whilst other clubs look at growing revenue from their new higher capacity stadiums and regular CL participation we look with glee at our steady balance sheet. That is what being a football club owner is ablity. Speculate to accumulate. You make the mistake in your article of using both the word football club and business as if they are the same thing. They are not. They are very different things. In fact I would go as far as to say that to be a successful football club is very different to being successful as a business. If business takes over then where does it stop? Would we soon be asked to accept that there is no point in accepting all the costs involved for us to play an away game in, for instance, Madrid against Real Madrid because the chance of us coming away with points is very unlikely and therefore cost benefit analysis would suggest we're better off not playing the match and just forfeiting it? At least that way we don't waste money travelling and staying in hotels to come home without anything of worth to the business.
SpuriousLife
Sorry, one more analogy. Owning a good, top level football club is like owning a Ferrari or Maserati. You can't have it and then refuse to insure it or put fuel into it because it costs too much. You can't burst into tears every time you fill it with fuel and it costs more than it would cost other cars to refuel for a month. If that's the way you look at it then sell the Ferrari and buy a second-hand Ford or Vauxhall. That is the difference. You can't have the upside and the kudos of owning a top level PL club without stumping up some of the time. It's the nature of the beast and wanting it any other way is unrealistic.
SpuriousLife
Looking at the financial report for only one year never works. What you will notice if you look at the last 3 is a fantastic trend. We improved our revenues by something like £42m in the year we got Champs League but it only came down by £19m in the following year when we didn't. That in effect means that Levy has grown Spurs turnover by over £10m a year for the last 2 years even excluding Champs League. That is a fantastic performance by him and speaks to the work he has done with things like sponsorship.

The downside for me is the loss we made. In my mind it should have been a £10m profit if it hadn't been for really bad management of the squad by Levy and Harry. We haemorrhaged money on salaries of players who clearly weren't having a single material impact to the 1st team setup and started both of the last 2 summers with 35 senior players. A lot of us called it over and over and Levy finally took drastic action last summer by removing 13 players to be replaced by 6.

Generally though we are in great shape. We should remember that even if we could have returned a £10m profit Levy would have managed it to close to zero by June 30 like he did last year. That's the great thing about the financial year end being in the middle of the sumer transfer window. You can manipulate how you want your balance sheet to finish by your incomings and outgoings.

Finally, this to me doesn't mean we can't spend £20m on a new player as they are intangible assets anyway and get amortised over the life of their contract. We can sustain that level of cost. It implies more that we'll probably be looking at a younger player on a long contract with a resale value to manage the risks and make the finances work. The critical thing is that we keep our biggest expense line (players salaries) under control under AVB. Use the loan system for the under 23's. If you can't get in the 25 after that then tough, we need to move them on. That is a completely different approach from Harry's time at Spurs where we lost it for a while as shown by the loss reported yesterday.
muttley
spurticus87 - "this site is dsgusting lately advertising keeps freezing my computer and missing words out!!!"....

Couldn't agree more & spent pretty much all of yesterday moaning about it. This little post alone as taken me almost 5 minutes to actually type to completion!!!
coopsieyid
OyVeh Maria - First of all you have to build the stadium,then you have to pay back the loans to build it. Only then does it generate extra revenues. You seem to be thinking it will be done in a couple of years, try 10-20.
jod
sydqcb5: what, Negredo in? please don`t make us all excited for nothing, it would be criminal :-)
noone
SpuriousLife - Arsenal have never been subsidised by the owners as you advocate, they paid for their stadium from revenue, not really sure why you're referrring to them. Where exactly are all these "new higher capacity stadiums" you refer to ? Liverpool have just about given up on a new stadium, so have Everton, apart from the Emirates I can's think of one. You really need to support City or Chelsea, they are the only clubs run the way you want.
jod
Cheers Coopsie mate.
Tottenham Hotcore
when coops first complained about the site I thought the main issue was with fellow posters but I have to agree all the intrusive advertising does make for a poor user experience. I understand the need to advertise to make money but it's the way in which you advertise that will be the difference between making money and killing the goose...if you drive users away the advertisers with their invasive videos etc will also disappear...be selective OX and look to improve the experience that way you'll get more vistitors and higher paying advertisers.
shedboy2
Jod - Arsenal borrowed and have nearly repaid the debt for their stadium. How did they do it? They did it by being in the CL for 14 consecutive seasons. How did they do that? They speculated and decided they needed to get better players and pay a few higher salaries to ensure they were in the CL each season as that was where the big money was and is. They used the revenues from constant CL participation to attract better players which in turn enabled then to be in the CL the next season. This leads to increased support and therefore greater requests for season tickets and therefore increased revenues when the new stadium was built. This justified building the new stadium which resulted in increased revenues for players and investment etc. etc. An upward spiral Jod. Are Arsenal worse off finacially than us? I don't think so and they already have a 55,000 seater stadium (almost all paid for) and players on wages higher than ours. It shows you don't have to follow the Abramovic approach to be successful, but you do have to speculate (of course wisely) to accumulate. As for telling me who I should support I won't sink to your level. I've probably been supporting Spurs (and that includes actually having a season ticket and going to matches) since before you were born. I always have and always will support Spurs. Perhaps the difference between us is that I want Spurs to be a successful fooball club whereas you want Spurs to solely be a successful business.
SpuriousLife
You know what annoys me more than anything about this site......the fact that whenever someone has a bit too much ambition or sets the bar too high they get told to pi$$ off and support Chelsea or city. Healthy debate is one thing, just been abusive and an out and out cock to other users isn’t. Like Lordjohnny said to a common culprit yesterday, play the ball not the player

Its going to be interesting to see how Chelsea and city finances shape up now that they are out of the CL and assuming neither of them win the League! How are they possibly going to meet the financial fair play rules that come into force? I think Levy has done a great Job by bringing that issue up when releasing the year end figures as well.
hudderspur
These accounts don't mean anything. I don't believe we are running at a loss but will have to see our full financials. The only interesting thing is the cost of the new training ground, I would assume most of it was put on a mortgage but if it has been paid off that would be really good. I don't expect any big signings but then I haven't all year. Hooper would actually be an improvement on last years striking acquisition..............Saha.......
T.H.F.Chris
syd - It's pretty much GUARANTEED that anybody with the term 'ITK' in their name, KNOWS NOTHING!!. I'm not attempting to pi$$ on any fireworks mate, but if you think about it logically, people that ARE 'ITK' are given very sensitive information & most certainly DON'T broadcast the fact that they are privy to such info. Check out the names of the most respected people, Jjetset, Ryan Tegen, Roger Morgan, Ali Z, Jasper, Archibald, Jasper, The Goat.... Note the blatant lack of 'ITK' within their names mate.

TH - No worries brother :) COYS
coopsieyid
syd - That said, I'll now go and have a look around, to see if I can find any of those guys backing up the info you've kindly shared with us :)
coopsieyid
An accounting loss of £4.5 million is nothing and just serves to save corporation tax. Makes no difference to our transfer plans, you don't play for players in one lump sum, you pay in installments.
Med1
I agree with the comments about advertising. Very annoying and surely driving readers away. It's the flash ads which seem to be the worst - the videos that start playing without asking. Ox will presumably tell us that vital spurs made a small operating loss last year and that they need to increase revenue in order to fund the new site upgrade.
OneCentRob
In terms of our central midfield (including Holtby), we have Sandro, Parker, Thudd and Livermore as defensive options and Dembele, Holtby and Carroll as more creative options. Add Sig and Clint as attacking mids... Is that a good balance or do we have at least one too many defensive mids? What does a squad of 25 need in terms of midfield back up?
SamParadise
I'm not sure an ITK has ever been proved right. I'm not sure it's worth getting excited about them as it only leads to disappointment on Feb 1st. We just have to trust AVB, I believe he knows what he is doing and just one or two astute signings, not necessarily big names and we will be good to go. COYS
jonathan01
Didn't they sell Modric and VDV after June? I like the timing of the announcement - It may stop sellers asking 50% more than a player is worth because Spurs are interested. Like when Fergie massively over priced Fryers, then gave him away later (LOL).
SPUDMAN
Can anyone tell how much the new training facility cost. Why was this not done after the stadium was completed first. Yes I know the stadium will cost a lot more but my upping season ticket sales it should soon start paying itself off. Then once more revenue comes in, then that surely could have been used to pay for a new training ground. The new training facility can not be that good as Defoe and Ade still can't hit a barn door.
nothappyharry
Not'....i think the training ground buy and move......was to coincide with cashing in, the old training ground (chingford) and the location to the olympics...etc.
82spursdebut
HOLTBY has "Already undergone his medical" & is expected to complete his move very soon....

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/lewis-holtby-cannot-wait-to-join-andre-villasboas-at-spurs-8462910.html
coopsieyid
..... the olympic park site.
82spursdebut
Have put bold on other thread on Hooper any help to remove it or does it just affect my posts. Sorry Ox
Wilts Spurs
Shows how important it is to qualify for the CL, which we failed to do last season because a) we finished 4th, but jammy Chelsea went and won it, and qualified again, and b) we took the pi$$ by signing Nelson and Saha in January, rather than strengthening when in 3rd and pushing on. We must ensure that we finish at least 4th this season, by ensuring that we remain stronger than Arsenal, Everton, Liverpool etc. even if that means spending a few quid. Speculate to accumulate. I still feel we do not push our merchandising potential to it's limit, compared to some of our rivals. This, and failure to unearth any of the the gems, before they become multi-million pound stars that we can't afford, are major factors in our financial position.
Frank
Does Holtby mean that belanda is off the menu now? We really only need to sign a striker now. Or possibly two if defoe is seriously injured!
Slurms McKenzie
No Wilts Spurs it affects us all! In fact I've never been so affected! Bold Wilts Spurs, yellow card offence at least and you'll be lucky to escape a red card from Ox!
Slurms McKenzie
Yellow card accepted despite my first offence. Help to remove the bold be great as I don't want to do any further damage.
Wilts Spurs
Somebody has stated that Defoe is NOT injured... Seems he DID have the scan, though the real reasons for it are still unknown. I'll obviously tell you more as I find it!
coopsieyid
nothappyharry - Apparently £45mil mate

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1294314/Harry-Redknapp-hails-Tottenhams-new-45million-training-base.html
coopsieyid
I am sorry, but I'm afraid I don't necessarily fully believe the figures, accountants have considerable expertise at hiding money from HMRC to reduce corporation tax payments, and in Messrs Lewis, and Levy, we have two men of no doubt considerable experience in such matters, ably advised of course by that other past master Michael Ashcroft.
Frank
hahahaha -@ spuds thinking big hahahaha
JohnnyOz
Belhanda off to Inter milan as Montpelier accept £11.8 million bid.
Wilts Spurs
more smoke & mirrors -- nothing short of an accounting excuse why we can't buy anyone -- do not believe these people -- they would not the truth if it bit them on ass
Cape Town Spurs
omitted words were, "know" and "the". Yep, this site is definitely stealing vowels and constonants
Cape Town Spurs
Coopsie, Defoe had the scan to look for all of his missing goals. Results were negative.

As to the numbers, why are they not believable? Because we want them to be different? Wanting to have a surplus of transfer funds is all well and good but the numbers for this year (I use Transfermarkt - use whatever source you wish) would seem to indicate that we have spent what we have brought in. So there is no gain there. No money under the mattress. From 2009-2010 to 2010-2011, our wage bill went from 67M to 91M. I can only presume that it has again gone up substantially. Walker and Bale got new deals. Sigurdsson, Dembele, Demsey, Ade, Lloris are not on budget wages whereas Modric, due to refusing to redo his contract, was. What we all want is for the club to spend. I am all for that. It just has to be costed somewhere. You can't, as a club, argue that the FFPR must be adhered to, if you are not willing to play by the rules. FFPR are what will save teams from doing a Leeds (buying and paying based on best case scenario revenues if they got CL, whic they did not) or a Glasgow Rangers (complete shambles but salvagable, sold to a man who stripped the club and then stated wasn't me) or Valencia (start construction of a stadium that you can't afford so that you can compete but that you can't complete because there is no more money). There are huge perils out there. Several EPL clubs have already gambled for the increased TV money next year. If they get relegated, they are all going to be bleeding money. How is that serving the best intersts of the club or the fans? Someone needs to be the adult. Levy does a good job of being the adult. COYS
peterballb
Wilts Spurs- we can't compete with QPR let alone Inter, we're skint..;) that said Negredo or Soldado please...both on our level, should be affordable and negredo has said he wants to come....
shedboy2
CapeTownSpurs, or it could just be that those are the numbers. Add up the sums yourself. Deals are all widely reported (wages are much more difficult to ascertain). Club accounts are all audited. All teams can hide money, I suppose. Didn't stop 12 of 20 clubs from losing money in 2010/2011. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that QPR, Southampton, Villa, City, Liverpool, Chelsea will all be running losses this season. According to Transfermarkt, there are 13 teams that have a net spend of more than 5M, just on transfers. This does not take in to account what you will be paying them. Really only Arsenal and Fulham have money to burn in the transfer market. It is, IMO, highly irresponsible. COYS
peterballb
peter mate...you ain't a businesman, that's for sure...;)
shedboy2
Hudderspur, I think City and Chelsea both will be impacted by the CL exits (although they did go through the group stages, so made money). The team that is really hurting from non-CL participation is Liverpool. They spend like they are in it, but they aren't. Fact is, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, City, United, Spurs and Liverpool can all spend enough to compete in four competitions year in and year out. The problem is, there are only 4 CL positions. While making CL bolsters our numbers, more importantly, it puts a dent in others. I hope UEFA enforce the FFPR. There is no one out there that can convince me PSG can break even. Their net spend, which was largely on established older players (ie no sell on value) on huge wages is absurd and is financially irresponsible. Unfortunately, the spends of PSG, Chelsea, City even QPR, forces other teams, competing for the same money, to decide whether to spend as well or be disadvantaged. Ultimately it is the owners that are responsible, but it will be the fans and the clubs that suffer. I don't see why every league is not instituting some form of regulation and penalties for clubs that do not, plus or minus, balance the budgets on the football side of things. Training grounds, stadiae etc are all separate issues. You have to deal with banks to get those funded. Formula 1 had to do it. It had ruined the competition because Ferrari and a few others were spending insane amounts. The playing field was destroyed. Now it is slowly coming back due to the systemic imposed leveling. Football needs to do something. COYS
peterballb
peter you seem more up on FFPR but isn't this the last chance to spend big before they come in? if so PSG/Citeh/Chelski don't have to worry hence they are spending big now....??
shedboy2
shedboy, I don't think one needs to be a businessman to know when numbers just don't add up. I think it is disrespectful to suggest that Levy, or anyone else, is evading taxes. Those of us who pa taxes, avoid paying them when we can, but know there is a huge difference between avoidance and evasion. Not all of us have accounts for our dogs. In football, it is rarely the transfer fee that is the issue, it is the wages. Our wages are under control. There is a demand in the market for our players on high wages. The balance are on wages most teams could afford. Our players are largely movable. Once Bentley, Jenas and Gomes are offloaded, we'll be in geat shape (hopefully by summer). COYS
peterballb
shedboy, I am pretty certan that the figures still count. Removal from Europe comes in next year (if I recall). Malaga, Sporting Lisbon, Atletico Madrid are already under sanction. Prize monies are being withld for non-payment to players, tax autorities etc. Clubs can run a loss in a year, but there are limits and it needs to be balanced out over 3 years. Even if none of the past financials affect these clubs, PSG, Chelsea City have huge wage bills which is where they will all run afoul. Other teams can't afford the wages and there is only so much money out there. PSG, if they win the CL, will not make as much as United did in losing 2 years ago because they don't get the same TV money because their association does not have a big share of the TV loot. COYS
peterballb
Peterbalb – Agree with you on the PSG scenario, that situation is a clear case of throwing money at the problem with absolutely no forethought for the future of the club. Once the moneymen get the trophy (ies) they want they will leave the club in utter disarray. I have no qualms with the way our club is run financially, and it is good to know that we at least have a future to look forward to. I like 99% of people on these internet forums would love Levy to go out and sign us Falcao for £50m and stick him on £150k p/w, but the fact is the numbers wouldn’t stack so it’s all just “fantasy football” thought

The only thing I have a problem with is the dilly dallying when we need to act on a situation. For example, there are plenty of very good forwards out there who are within our means both in terms of initial outlay and who fit within our wage structure. You yourself have named more than a few over the last few weeks. It just always seems like such a mammoth task to get the basics done. I know it’s never as easy as it seems, but although other clubs leave it late, no other club leaves it quite so “skin of the teeth” close as THFC.
hudderspur
hudderspur, agreed. I think part of the issue is that most of the players we really want, are players that are looking a lttle higher up in the tables and in wages. They accept us when ours is the best offer remaining, which unfortunately happens at the last second. It sucs, but I accept that until we become a worldwide merchandising machine we cannot compete with those that are. CL would be a huge next step. The Europa exposure has been greeat. Winning it and then being in the CL next season would see huge dividends. Most important though is the table position we need CL. We need the stadium going forward but yesterday's statement seemed to indicate there are still hurdles and 2018 looks, unfortunately, realistic. Get CL, sign Son, go to Hong King with hopefully a trophy in hand and maybe, just maybe we can push the merchandising forward a little quicker. It will take success though. COYS
peterballb
Come on you Hammers. COYS
peterballb
Losses or no losses, it is simply bad management to get to a situation where we are so depleted in terms of strikers. A shame really because AVB can take this club a long way with some sensible support from ENIC.
jonathan01
Why was Harry Redknapp sacked ?

Answer is the article
big cockeral
Harrys gone, get over it.
spurspanther
Dont know why we dont offer Shalke 10 mill for both Holtby and Hutelaar. Alot of money for them both to go free at the end of the season.
spurspanther
Rev/Exp last few years on transfers:(09-10) Transfer revenue: 18.216.000 £ - Transfer expenditures: 35.464.000 £ = -17.248.000

(2010-2011) Transfer revenue: 1.526.800 £ - Transfer expenditures: 22.968.000 £ = -21.441.200 £


(2011-2012)Transfer revenue: 34.408.000 £ - Transfer expenditures: 7.436.000 £ = +26.972.000 £


2012-Present Transfer revenue: 59.294.400 £ - Transfer expenditures: 62.920.000 £ = -3.625.600 £
ledgespur
Huntelaar has a 12M buyout clause apparently that was added just recently when he signed his extension. Somethingis going on at Scalke. Howedes hs refused to sign an extension and his contract is up in 18 months. IMO, he is the only young CB I would have rated above Vertonghen. I believe he is also their captain, so things don't look so good. There must be something not quite right there. COYS
peterballb
Here"s the kicker 08-09 Transfer revenue: 44.044.000 £ - Transfer expenditures: 125.400.000 £ = -81.356.000 £
ledgespur
So I would think it fair to say we are not lacking in investment in the squad over these few years as a whole?
ledgespur
ledgespur Wages , Wages ,Wages .Stockpiling will catch up with you
big cockeral
Glad that some of the posters on here don't run or rather ruin our club. Go to Vital Villa for a reality check. We have a squad that is capable to fight for a place behind the mega rich, we can beat them in one game, but not in the long run. It will take a bench that is almost as strong as the first 11 Some valid points there,Peterballb. We could be run by Randy Lerner for example. (Go to Vital Villa for a reality check). Most clubs not only envy us, they praise us for the way we are run. That said; buy Crouch back, all is forgotten! Or maybe not......
dannylane
ledge, and one year further back is, if memory serves, was a 46M deficit. I still maintain, our new reality is more difficult because the wages have gone up. We need revenues in to keep up with the pace of what these better quality players make on a week to week basis.

An article from April 2011 (presumably based on the previous year's numbers, had Spurs as the 110th highest average salary in sport. 21 other football clubs, including West Ham, Pompey, Newcastle, Villa all had higher wage bills, along with the usual suspects Liverpool, Arsenal, ManU, Chelsea. City was still yet to start their ridiculous spending. Other than the big4 only Newcastle could be said to have relative health. In this article, our average salary was 45k US$ per week (assuming 25 players that would amount to 58,500,000 US$ or 40M GBP (approx). By 2010/11 our wage bill was 91M GBP. The wages are the difficult side to balance and when the wages are not in keeping with the real player value, you cannot move that player. That either results in a loss or in paying other players less money. COYS
peterballb
when we consider that we remain not only competitive but improving in terms of the quality/depth of our squad and have a young average age, we should be delighted. sure we have lost over 4m, but how much have we spent on one off and exceptional things, such as the training complex, which is superb, the groundwork of the new stadium and also lets not forget the money we pumped into trying to get the Olympic stadium, only to get shafted at the last minute. Just by that alone, if we had been better advised by the government and the Olympic legacy committee, we might be talking about a £4.3m profit as opposed to a loss
Oxfordspur
regardless of all if it, the maths, politics, & BS, we desperately need a striker that is an upgrade on JD and my head is so far up my own ar$e I can no longer hear myself think Adebayor - the fact that this is it, this the the cutting edge, this is the front line, the attacking force, the goal getters, the game winners is nothing short of diabolical. i don't care if we blame the cheeky cockney that can't keep his mouth shut, daniel I left my wallet in my other jacket levy or any one else.. the facts are the facts
Cape Town Spurs
It's why I believe signing players like Son makes so much sense. Beyond the fact that he is young and seems to be improving yearly in a tough Bundesliga, he would offer cover for AMF across the top and is a striker (where he currently plays, though if you watch him, he is all over the pitch), he is likely able to demand reasonable wages, is on a team that is cash poor (already went in to their pockets to get VDV), is apparently available for about 8M GBP, would represent a huge merchandising opportunity in the Worldwide South Korean market and we are off to Hong Kong in the summer. It strikes me as a deal that would not be disruptive and could well pay us back 10 fold. Diame, M'Vila, Sissokho are all similar in that their market value is incredibly diminished at the moment. Sissokho is on a free at year's end. A Holtby like deal could be done to get him in now (a little money is better than none). Sissokho comes in, settles and looks the part and he has shot up 15M. 18 months ago he was being touted as the best young DMF prospect. M'Vila they just want rid of. Again, was worth 22M just a year ago and has now plummeted below 10M. Diame 3.5M buout and he doesn't want to sign a better deal with West Ham. Tell you what, if Diame helps sink Arsenal tonight, he's worth every penny. COYS
peterballb
@dannylane, why do you have to insult the posters on here? What gives you the right? "Glad that some of the posters on here don't run or rather ruin our club." We're supporters voicing our thoughts and opinions, we're not applying for the job of chairperson. Are we allowed to do that? Is that alright with you? Or should we all just tow the company line and join in the company song, Levy the Magnificent.
Cape Town Spurs
have to say I havent really seen anything of Son, however I am happy to back AVB and the clubs buying committee if they feel he is right for us. On balance we seem to have bought well or at least without too many duds in recent times, whether that was with Harry or now AVB
Oxfordspur
Ox, in think the club is run exceptionally well and take pride as a supporter in the way our success has been achieved and not bought! But I also think they have cooked the books, we only spent 5 million on Parker last summer and January yet we recouped 22 million for palacios and crouch as well as receiving decent sums for Hutton, kranjcar and pav. Roughly that is a min 25 million profit just on sales. Where do you think the money has gone?
spurticus87
CapeTownSpurs, on that we all agree and are al seeing brown. If we get one, it will be one AVB wants and who will fit in the balance sheet going forward. Sign Son. Get the pressure off the striker issue and perhaps we get Negredo at the last. Most of the guys we want are either still in the CL, are looking higher up the table or come from teams that don't need the money (ie they won't play the DL way - Willian). It's not easy being us. None of that stopped us getting Lloris, Vertonghen, Dembele or the hero of both legs against United, Dempsey. Fryers and Holtby are more pieces to the puzzle. I still believe Sigurdsson has a role to play in all this too. COYS
peterballb
@spurticus, I agree, but i don't think they've cooked the books to pocket a few bob, they've invested / spent but not in the squad. they've invested in real estate. this is where they'll find their profit. we all agree the club is well run. however, if there could just be a slight slant to football and not Bahama Joe's savings account without the spin doctoring that has us all beleive it's all about football, that'd be just dandy
Cape Town Spurs
going for dinner... when I return I hope we'll have positive news about our striker needs but I somehow doubt that! Cheers all.
Cape Town Spurs
BTW, the link to the article from ESPN that I referenced earlier is below:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=6354899

Spurticus87, just check out the figures on Transfermarkt, it is probably well explained there on the ins and the outs. It's a cool site in that it has a lot of contract and transfer info. Really cool is going back a decade or more and seeing how we, and other clubs, have got to where They are.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/premier-league/transferuebersicht/wettbewerb_GB1.html

There are lots of other sites out there. Enjoy. COYS
peterballb
peterballb- I don't think anyone has accused Levy of Tax evasion...certainly not me
shedboy2
CapeTownSpurs, I don't think so, but then I can only go by what the club has stated. Football related revenue would be reinvested in the club. Training Facility and Stadium Construction are separate. Some would say naming rights money should be reinvested in the team. I would say it should help with the debt of the stadium. I would say any other sponsorship deals are team related revenues and should be reinvested. Regardless, I do want to see a balanced book, year over year. It's what guaantees that we don't gamble away all that has been built. COYS
peterballb
Wages are impoprtant to have under control and always have been due to our wage structure, have our wages gone up above our structure? if not it doesn't matter if we're paying 200k pw....it's a ratio, the physical amount a player gets is almost irrelevant.
shedboy2
also I note everyone is honing in on the loss but ignoring the headline: The Club can announce a profit from operations of £23m (2011: £38m) for the year ended 30 June 2012. Looking across the past five years this measure of cash generated from operations has averaged over £29m per annum....which is positive.
shedboy2
Cheers Peterb look forward to having a gander at that, capetown don't think they have done it in a bad way but a tax avoiding way which I'm all for ;)
spurticus87
shedboy, several have suggested that the books are being cooked. Others that ENIC will be stripping the assets etc. It's all ridiculous. ENIC, when they sell get far more for a 56k seat stadium, maximized in CL and PL revenues than they will for a mid-table team in a half filled stadium. It is in both Lewis and Levy's best interests to keep increasing the value of the brand. CL, stadium, worldwide exposure. These are all necessary in that plan. If they wanted to cut and run the time was the year we had qualified for CL. They'd already trebled their investment in the club. I don't agree with all that they do, but I appreciate the global job they have done. COYS
peterballb
When I say cooked the books I mean exceptionally good accounting to make the company appear less profitable than it actually is to keep tax payments as low as possible
spurticus87
shedboy, no, the wages are under control. Unfortunately, the side effect of that is that players who are linked (like Aguero 18 months ago) and others are pie in the sky. They don't fit. There are lots of guys we can afford and yes, something should have been done about the striker years ago. It MUST be someone the coach wants. Same when Redknapp was here and that's where the issue is. Harry wanted Forlan. Forlan was going to cost way too much on the wage scale. Couldn't be done within our self-imposed parameters. I don't know who AVB wants beyond Leandro, who fits within the wage structure but whose value seems to be so inflated that the other interested, better financed clubs, like AC, Inter, Barca, RM, Chelsea, haven't made the move either. At this level it is tough. Very few players give you what you need. Most aren't available or don't fit within our structure, a few do. Let's hope that we resolve replacing at least one of Berba and Keane, finally. COYS
peterballb
fair enough spurticus87, so they are acting like any one of us does at tax time. And lng may they continue. COYS
peterballb
Peter _ I agree that it would be in their best interest to have a CL team but if there's a conflict between player aquisition and paying contractors...it'll be the contractors every time...in fact I don't know why so many people are speculating on our tax/profit situation when as Spurticas mentions it can be dressed up according to plan. The real srory for me was- 'our focus continues to be the delivery of an increased capacity stadium'
shedboy2
Makes me laugh people who slate levy, 'he is a business man not a supporter' to right and I'm glad he is, if he wasn't we would be in league 2 with stupid amounts of debt, but yet we sit in 4th place giving city and chavs a run for their money (millions) with a well run club a brand new training complex and shiny stadium on the way, so what if ENIC have taken 10 years to build it, when it comes it will have been worth the wait, you need to realise that without levy in charge of spurs we could still be a middle table club of the 90s, we are gradually building something here and I for one am glad we are where we are today. COYS ILIT IAVBIT
tottingham10
..........results are £34m down on last year's figures, but chairman Daniel Levy is not too concerned either.He said: "We are ever ambitious for the club, driving all areas of the business. "Our focus continues to be the delivery of an increased capacity. There is much work to be done refining the detailed design and resolving the final development issues. "We intend to deliver this to the same high standards of the new training centre and to reward our incredibly loyal supporters with a world class stadium and one that will have made a crucial contribution to the regeneration of a priority borough in London." Meanwhile, the club sit fourth in the Premier League with Champions League football again firmly in their sights. Spurs suffered financially when they missed this season's Champions League after Chelsea lifted the trophy in May. With Real Madrid reported to be interested in Gareth Bale at £50 million and beyond, Spurs look to have sufficient player assets to keep the bank manager happy....there you go Tott 10 our future is in safe hands!
OyVeh Maria
OhVeh Maria, I think it would be wrong to sell Bale unless he wanted to go. If he does, our having CL will not change that any more than it would have kept Modric in a Spurs kit. It's RM. Or Barca, or AC Milan, or Inter or ManU. These are huge clubs who will all pay way more than we will and all of whom afford players opportunities we never could. Now, if Bale insisted, 55M buys Son, Negredo, Willian and Dzagoev. The funds will be reinvested. Levy has never chosen to sell top assets. He has done so when required and on his terms. COYS
peterballb
Falque goes out on loan so i hope that`s to make space for an attacking winger or striker .Both is best because i woudn`t write off Liverpool or Arsenal for 4th
big cockeral
Evening guys. Just thought I'd pop back on site for a quick catch-up.. I've got as far as the post by HUDDERSPUR (the one where he's agreeing with peterballb about PSG, moneymen, dilly dallying etc)... HUDDERSPUR - SUPERB post & I agree with every single word!!
coopsieyid
Feck off ENIC.
lordjohnny
tottingham10 - Another superb post fella..
coopsieyid
Trust Frank to come on here and make up some complete B.S. because he will never be happy until we are spending like Chelsea. Frank, you think ENIC lie about everything. You think they are lying about the stadium and now the profit/loss figures like they are our enemy, holding the club back. It's pathetic. Lets get a Randy Learner in instead shall we.
asherthesmasher
oh Lord Johnny
spurticus87
I'd genuinely couldn't remember why you irritated me so much but now its all come flooding back, having said that you will pick up on my inferior grammar correct it and make me smile
spurticus87
Grow up asher- Frank, like myself, fails to see any masterplan in locking out 20,000 every home game for the last 5-10 years. We have a waiting list of season ticket holders, we have a fan base of the highest socio-economic group in football, we are an established London club. We USED to have for most of our history, one of the largest stadiums in the country. Why? Because we have a large, and relatively wealthy fan base, always retaining good solid support, and yet we continue to have an ownership that faffs around, while losing huge revenue through lack of investment in a sure fire winner...the fecking stadium. Imagine Sainsburys, Tescos, M& S, Primark, keeping their stores small, and telling customers they can't come in........ but maybe we'll build something in the future. Jaysus, what do we have to say or do to convince you people?
lordjohnny
LJ, I know this will not be comforting to you, but there is clearly a plan. Too slow for many on here. I too want it yesterday, but as I stated the other day, we only got the provisional planning permission a year ago and it was only 14 months ago that Heritage, London and Haringey all finally became partners, rather than parasites in the endeavour. Levy had to threaten them with picking up and moving to get it done. No, that was not the original plan, but then we wanted a 62-65k seat stadium and are having to settle for 56k. Not because we can't fill it or afford the morter, but because that's all they will allow. There has been a whole lot of wrangling over the years. Yes, we could have accepted that we should just accept a smaller stadium, paid for the transit, security ourselves and allowed Heritage to keep all their buildings, but we didn't go that route. Instead we have partners going forwar, sharing the benefits and some of the costs, as is only fair. Last I checked, the improvements will benefit the area on non-game days as well. Levy protected the interests of the club. It may have taken a few extra years, but then there is very little rush because the banks, these days, aren't that keen to just hand out debt that may not be repaid.

Yes, Arsenal got theirs done earlier. They had CL and more revenue and thus could afford more debt. We couldn't. Even Liverpool can't seem to get the shovels in the ground that they so desperately need. It's not just Spurs. It's happening all over the globe. COYS
peterballb
Thank you peterballb
spurticus87
LordJohnny - good points again and a good reply from Peterballb who, despite having different views regarding ENIC to mine, is always measured, eloquent and polite. Thank you both for being two of the best posters on this site. Peterballb you highlighted the importance of CL football in enabling Arsenal to get their stadium built quickly whilst Liverpool and we haven't even started digging a hole in the ground yet. Seeing as we can all see the financial benefits regular CL football brings it makes it all the more gauling that ENIC seem reticent to spend a little bit now to ensure our regular CL participation. It is this that frustrates so many of us. Regular CL football is the best way for us to boost revenues. ENIC know it too but are too risk averse to take this little punt now o ensure we get it. And before anyone starts jumping up and down we're only talking about £15m-£20m which in the scheme of PL football is not a big financial risk.
SpuriousLife
SpuriousLife, thanks for that. If it were my decision, I would make the investment this season. First off, CL will add 20-30M just for the group stages. That increases merchandising etc. Second, there will be another 20M for each PL team next year because of the new deal.

So where's the danger? Danger is spending the money and not getting it. Leeds did it QPR are doing it, albeit, theirs is a PL survival gamble. Southampton look like they might be getting Coutinho out of the grips of Liverpool. They have a huge net spend. QPR, Villa and Southampton,if they go down together would be taking about 100M in net spend, not including wages. Can you imagine?

Every signing has inherent dangers. Who'd have thunk that Torres could suck that bad for that long? Not I. Never thought he was worth 50M, but he has been pants. I still believe getting Holtby in early is wise. I'd try the same with Sissokho. These are both can't lose propositions. I'd also get in there for Son. 8M for a player who culd be a marketing dream if we get CL and he succeeds. It also takes the pressure off the striker issue. Then if Negredo comes, awesome. If not, he went somewhere else who gave him more or that suited him better. He is being flogged. He will go somewhere. Willian is a tough one. I'd stump the 20M. I think that's too steep for Levy though. I also wonder if Townsend and Pritchard shouldn't be playing some. That said, if Levy stated that he had acquired Son, Willian, Negredo, Sissokho, Holtby and Fryers for 50M and sold Hudd and Gomes for 8M, loaned out Bentley, Townsend and Livermore for the rest of the season, I'd be tickled pink. Let the dust settle where it may in August. All of those players could be sold at a profit, if need be. It doesn't sound like Sandro will be ready for the start of next season. Parker is not getting any younger. The strikers have been terrible. All the guys I mention can play football. Defoe can't even find goals on an MRI. We need a striker. We need cover/options for Bale and Lennon. We need a string puller.

I believe all of the guys I mention would fit within our salary structure. Reality is that AVB may not want any of them. To me, Son, is a no-brainer. Sissokho too. Willian I get the trepidation. I remain convinced that it is down to the player where Negredo will go, so, on that one, we wait.

Players must be ones AVB wants and they must fit within the team plans and salary structure. COYS
peterballb
Peterb-Sorry I have to take issue with you. Compulsory purchase orders on the properties outstanding could have been sorted years ago, with an acquiescent local authority. That is just a smokescreen for ENIC looking elsewhere. As for parasites, that is simply wrong. ENIC, and its PR people were quite happy to perpetuate the myth that Haringay was stiffing them on S106 when in fact, the S106 requirements were barely 3% of overall costs at around £15 million. Compare that with A**e, who had to pay £60 million to resite a waste recycling plant alone, never mind infrastructure costs. Also Boris has now chipped in, and Haringay is willing to amend S106 costs. If anything, it is ENIC that has behaved appallingly, alienating everyone involved. They could have had cheap credit, but now find things more difficult. That is their fault entirely. They could and should have rebuilt WHL years ago, and now it would have been paid for, irrespective of Champions League football. Despite that lot down the road getting CL football, their stadium was not dependent on it. Prudent financing, and getting on with the job gets results. After all, they moved. We're not. Entirely ENIC to blame.
lordjohnny
lordjohnny, Haringey, Heritage and the City of London could have acquiesced years ago. What ENIC insisted upon was to do the plan their way (ie 62-65k seats paying the other freight as Arsenal did) or having a compromise. 56k seats was accepted, a redesign done, because we got them on board. There was, IMO, no reason to accept the lesser game day revenue and be on the hook for the "extras". It was patently unfair. ENIC make very few comments so the suggestion that there was a PR campaign is a little much. As now, there is minimal out of them. If they wanted a PR campaign, they needed only to hire Redknapp. The first costs I recall seeing, were just under 400M.

In 2007, Spurs were worth less than that and did not have Europe, let alone CL. There were not the resources available to float the huge loans that would be needed. Now we are a fixture in Europe, we are on the cusp of the top 4 and compete well in the league. Our club, at last Forbes, was worth 564M and the project cost is, as I understand it, under 450M. So, it's no longer a smoke and mirrors show. We can, and will be able to service the debt while competing. Even at 20 GBP a seat, those lost 5k seats represents 100k per game night. Thats a huge chunk of change to give up with nothing coming back. Spurs waiting list is 32k. As I said, we are going ahead as partners and that's in everyone's best interests. Yes, it took time to get the deal done the way Levy and ENIC wanted, but that's what he does and it's why we are where we are. COYS
peterballb
I'm just happy given the current financial climate that we are making strides towards the new stadium and are now a regular top of the table fixture. We have had and still have some exceptina players and we appear to be moving forward on all fronts, I'm not saying Enic has been perfect but look around we are self sustaining making great progress, Everton have stood still Liverpool have gone backwards, arsenal are getting progressively worse with each season where as we are going from strength to strength. How do you appreciate success if you haven't worked hard for it?
spurticus87
ENIC took over Spurs in 2001. They looked at moving to Picketts Lock in 2001. Then nothing until 2008, when they announced in October a 56,000 rejig of WHL. Planning adjustments subsequently barely changed the expected capacity. I don't know where you get 62-65000, and I don't understand what you mean by 'paying the other freight as Arsenal did'? Haringay was always on board anyway, and it was not entirely dependent on size of stadium. Their leader, Claire Kober had to issue a public statement dismissing the nonsense that they had sought to bleed the club for infrastructure costs. I've explained the S106s in my last post. You refer to 2007 and Spurs' worth, and no Europe. These major capital projects will not be predicated, or backed, on qualification for major tournaments. A club of Spurs' size and backing, should have found financing the development from 2001 onwards, relatively straightforward. The fact it is now is again ENIC's fault, as 12 years later, they have no-one to blame but themselves. Spurs has a long waiting list, and I'll take your figure of 32,000. All the more reason to blame ENIC for missing out on that revenue during healthy economic times. No, sorry, that fact alone persuades me they've shortchanged the supporters, and the club.
lordjohnny
Sorry Spurt, I must have missed all this success?
lordjohnny
Let me ask you a question then, do you not think that the team has made progression since Enic took over? Are we better financially? Do you see us making steady progression? The success is beating the champions league holders, playing Real Madrid, beating united at old Trafford, beating city at east lands to gain cl qualification, beating Chelsea for the carling cup and being in contention for the cl for 3 consecutive seasons. City are owned by the richest family in the world and it took them 3 or 4 years just to draw a league with united, I'm not saying you don't make some valid points but in the general scheme I'm proud of the war we have progressed and it could be a lot worse, rangers, Portsmouth, Newcastle, Leeds, soon to be qpr and south Hampton
spurticus87
lordjohnny, there is a world of difference in a 243M entity with stagnant revenues funding a 400M venture and a 564M entity with growing revenues funding the same. I have no doubt that Spurs could have gotten the planning done earlier, but not our way and certainly not without a huge impact on the onfield product. As it stands, the fourth stand can't be added until current WHL is razed so the actual completion date is when we will be able to finally have our full capacity. First mock-ups on the current site had 62k seats and was an entirely seperare building requiring no considerations to current WHL uses. The project has changed quite a bit. Compromise. It is also odd that Haringey were against this when they were in the papers every month stating that public works, transit, security had to be looked after by the club. Sure, they were on board with us going it alone, with their restrictions. It was only with thecOS nonsense that they finally came to an obvious conclusion. Levy didn't look at that because he was feeling all warm and fuzzy inside. We accepted less condos and capacity in the end. For no other reason that we now had a quid pro quo relationship. Everyone benefits and we are now way better positioned to handle the debt. 2018 then it is. COYS
peterballb
It is also worth noting that the entity that benefits most from a built, filled to capacity stadium and CL football is ENIC, 29% owned by Levy and 71% owned by the Tavistock group (owned by Lewis). The less on field impact the stadium build has on the success of the club the better. I find it hard to reconcile that they have deliberately taken money out of their own pockets when they seem to squeeze every hapenny out of every other deal. Just saying. COYS
peterballb
peterballb bang on the money for me. Sure we're all getting frustrated regarding the new stadium, but it is happening now. No Olympic sideshows & all the right players are now on board. Just as long as the playing squad isnt overly neglected in the next 7/8 years and we stay a top 4 - 8 team then we will be in a mega position. Thats why imo AVB was the right choice, a long term vision rather than (albeit a successful one) a short term one under Redknapp
HuddersfieldYiddo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa3zOxbAuxY I know even Chamakh looks good on youtube.... but this guy does look a bit tasty. CHeck WHO he's scoring these goals against as well, Bayern, Dortmund etc top teams & big matches. His pace catches they eye as well. With the added bonus of exposure to Asian markets - could be worth a punt?
HuddersfieldYiddo
peterballb tells us he appreciates the global job the (ENIC) have done." Global job? Are THFC a more famous club than back when the club last won a 'real' Cup the FA Cup, back in 1991 before Sugar and his personally chosen apprentice Daniel Levy arrived? And what have the club won in Europe during the entire Sugar and Levy era's? And on the merchandising front Levy has failed miserably to make THFC a global merchandising brand. Why? Because Levy has repeatedly turned down the approaches of both Nike and Adidas, because when you sign to them, they take full control of the marketing, release dates, and distribution of their product. Levy does not like this because he just loves (just like with his player signings) to wait deep into the summer, to release the Spurs kit exclusively first, in his tacky little Spurs shops and pathetic online site, missing the wonderful 'free' opportunity of having kids 'worldwide' advertise the Spurs kit and the Tottenham brand in playgrounds and parks around the world through out the entire summer. Try finding a shop anywhere in Asia, Africa, India, North America, South America and most of Europe where you can buy a Spurs shirt. Nearly impossible! In contrast you see Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool etc etc etc on sale all around the world... I work in Germany a lot and have never seen a Spurs shirt on sale in any sports shop anywhere, yet you find Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Stoke City, Swansea City etc etc shirts everywhere in Nike and Adidas outlets. The owners of those clubs understand that if you go with Nike or Adidas you get immediate world wide exposure in Nike and Adidas stores world wide, but Danny boy, truly believes he knows more about kit merchandising than Nike and Adidas! The whole Under Armour deal was perfect for Levy, because they agreed to his pathetic release date plans, and it got the Enic Corporation a guaranteed 50 million, (none of which has been reinvested in the team) whether or not the club sale a single shirt, which is why Levy and Lewis don't give a monkeys whether or not a single Spurs shirt can be bought anywhere outside the UK, which proves 100% that ENIC have little of no interest in making THFC a global brand!
pelebro
Now go to the CFC site and see how they market their club worldwide through Adidas... http://theblues.chelseafc.com/megastore/megastore_map2012.shtml?portal=UMPE1CSP&base=default.aspx&area=portal=UMPE1CSP~CMP=PSC-UMPE1CSP
pelebro
HuddersfieldYiddo writes, "Sure we're all getting frustrated regarding the new stadium, but it is happening now." Happening now? Happening when? Can you please let your fellow Spurs fans know when building work on the new stadium will begin? Which year? And can you please let us all know when the new stadium will open to the public. Which year? Thanks...
pelebro
Regarding merchandising I can only agree with pelebro, it is difficult to buy Spurs merchandising goods except through Spurs outlets an the web site, I appreciate what he says re world wide distribution, and I can confirm that there is a difficulty in the North of England and almost all of continental Europe, never mind Asia. I must confess that Spurs merchandising is parochial, and compared to Nike, Adidas, who the bloody hell are Under Armour, how many can honestly say they had heard of them before the kit deal. They are small potatoes.
Frank
If that's what it cost us to not be in the CL. Then that is the motivation to ensure we are back in it and so the motivation to get the players we need to consolidate our precarious position. I wonder if we would be looking over our shoulders if they'd bought Moutinho and Willian in the summer - I think we'd be chasing down Man City. Just a thought.
SPUDMAN
If you look at the land opposite WHL pelebro youl see that work is pretty much ready to start. I was amazed at the recent transformation when i visited the area over the xmas period. Google Map it, its not as if there was a massive plot of land ready to start building on - it was a brownfield site that has slowly needed clearing away
HuddersfieldYiddo
peter, you should probably quit with the easy explanations of how banks won't loan money to a company for a project that 'was' more expensive than the actual company worth in the past, it's obvious that most on here have all built their own half-billion pound projects in their back-yard, and as such would have had it built and functional within a week.
Crissybwoy
"But Arsenal....But Arsenal.....But Arsenal.....". If they're so great, then go and watch them instead.
Crissybwoy
 

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