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Crunching The Numbers

I've been reading Deloittes annual report on football club revenues, it makes interesting reading.

With the hard numbers you can't kid yourself about financial reality. Saying Spurs are the 13th richest club in Europe sounds so much better than saying we have only 35% of the income of Real Madrid, £178.2m versus £512.6m. Indeed we have only 55% of the income of Chelsea (5th on the list). Deloittes break a club's income down into 3 categories, matchday revenue, broadcasting and commercial. Only 29% of our revenue comes from ticket sales, £50.8m, which is fairly typical. Arsenal have the highest percentage on the list but even then its only 43% of their total income. Inter Milan generate only 12% of their revenues from ticket sales. This might explain why clubs seem so unconcerned about the welfare of fans these days.

One thing that jumped out of the report was that Liverpool have significantly higher revenues than we do, £233.2m against our £178.2m. When you look at the numbers this is almost entirely due to higher commercial income, £99.1m versus £51.3m. It suggests we need to see what they are doing in that area and try to copy it. Comparisons with Arsenal are also enlightening. We have only 61% of Arsenal's revenue, but this is mostly to do with the stadiums. Arsenal's ticket sales came to £117.7m compared to our £50.8m, so they got more than twice our income from that source. If anyone wonders why we need a new stadium the answer is right there.

The national differences come out clearly in the report. Real Madrid and Barcelona are 1 and 2 but there are no other Spanish clubs in the top 20, whereas there are 7 English clubs. The four German clubs have a much higher share of their income from commercial sources than anyone else except Man City whose 'sponsorship' by Etihad Airways seems to have been allowed by EUFA. Looking at the numbers it's hard to see how we can climb the table very far without a new stadium.

The top four (Madrid, Barcelona, Man U and Bayern) all have more than twice our total income, I don't think that kind of gap can be closed. Champions league participation might earn you £30-40m a year, but that only closes the gap to Juventus in 10th place. Liverpool's numbers suggest that there is scope to increase commercial income, but again its not enough to make a significant difference. The numbers tell us we need both to build the new ground and spend smarter than the competition, because for now we have significantly less money.

Written by jod

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The journalist

Writer: jod Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Tuesday January 29 2013

Time: 8:25AM

Your Comments

The only numbers I've crunched today was the No.2 I've just had.
thought I would leave it 5 minutes before responding to that one Spuds...
Off topic so apologies but I'm hearing that Redknapp is desperately trying to sign Crouch and Samba before Thursday. I swear his last scouting took place 8 years ago and he's still working off the same list. Anyway I promise not to mention him again. Have a good day all. I'm stuck on the M3 which has been closed for the past 70 mins!
I like the piece jod assert the 'need' for a new stadium but fail to account for the 450m debt this will also mention Inter only make 12% from ticket sales and that Liverpool make nearly 50m pa more than us on comercial revenue...the top 4 gap can't be closed? You touch on the area that will give us most bang for our buck....commercial revenue!!! you mention we'll 'only get 30-40m per year for CL' but that success on the pitch spins the commercial success off the pitch...add 30m from CL to an extra 50m commercial rev like Pools and suddenly we're 90m up!!
'This might explain why clubs seem so unconcerned about the welfare of fans these days.' No they understand that 'fans' are not just the bums in seats in the stadium...they can be milked, they are 'loyal' brand champions. The top clubs understand the need for the brand to spread and I tried to explain to a poster yesterday if you buy Sky, go to the pub to watch a game, buy merchandise or read about footy you are contributing...(the guy didn't get it) the main reason so many homes have sky is football, people buy the Sun for the sports or go to the pub to catch a game....these people pay more to Spurs than the bums in seats (sometimes of course they'll be the same person) and this is where the opportunity for maximising revenue really comes....we can do more now but as always success on the pitch will be the real driver....
The stadium should bridge the gap definitely but I agree that we need CL football to boost are appeal commercially, that's the way we will get additional support abroad but also winning cups will help as everyone wants to support a winning team but we haven't one that recently either!
I like the Arsenal and Liverpool comparisms, but wonder how much of their gap over us is based on long term or recent success. Historically Liverpool have been massive in the world game and based on this their worldwide fan base is one of the biggest and most loyal in the world game. Arsenal have had pretty much consistent success for the last 25 years and have usually come out on top against us over our histories. The change might well come over generations of fans who see other clubs as being more attractive and also the increase in kids watching football from other countries and continants widens the appeal for new teams to follow. Will that 5 year old from Asia follow his brother or father in supporting Liverpool if they arent in Europe and sit 8th in the Prem. Similarly Arsenal have been almost a fixture in the CL. will their failure for two or three seasons to qualify and a reputation for selling and not buying like for like quality make their overall reputation suffer. Also what happens if suddenly their proud reputation for filling or at least selling all the tkts for the Emirates becomes only 55,000 as opposed to sixty..
Thanks for stating the obvious. That is not a disparaging remark as many supporters need the obvious explained to them. Liverpool have a higher revenue due to being a "big team" in European football. They have a history, which creates a fan base and world wide awareness. With that in mind it obvious why their income is greater, it's not because they are doing something better.
shedboy2 - The guy from yesterday was me, and I don't think you get it. If you subscribe to Sky you are not funding Spurs you are funding ALL football teams, the big boys above us in this Deloitte table just get bigger as they are the clubs receiving more money from SKY based on league placements. It's what is known as a vicious circle!
did anyone see this we are definitely heading in the right direction, however slowly it takes
Jod - don't forget that stadiums have costs as well revenue. Profit comes more from the TV and commercial deals.
Love totty
Having the likes of Dempsey and Friedel on our books promotes us in the US. Whether football really takes off there is another question. Liverpool are still a massive brand in the far east, this is a market where we have grown but still not the force of United and Liverpool. Sky have all of us over a barrel, unfortunately it's too late to boycot. We are trapped.
Talking in numbers is it not near time the numerials on the players shirts returned to the 1-11 in order to identify players seen on the TV , now i see the players names have been discarded from the back of the shirts as well these silly numerials like 33,78,45,and so on and so forth don`t mean squat for the so called tactic`s reason`s , this is i suppose the reining body of world football`s great idea Plantini and old farts .
yiddyboy- sorry couldn't remember who it was....yes you are funding Spurs indirectly through sky as you rightly point out the sky money is divided amongst the clubs...therefore money spent for sky subscription goes to with success on the pitch we get a larger slice rather than a vicious circle it's a virtuos one....that's what top teams understand....also (and I know I'll pelters for this) Pelebro has a point about our kit manufacturer and marketing...hopefully Underarmour will step up but why we haven't been with Nike or Addidas rather than such greats as Pony i don't know? must have cost us millions!!
jod's article highlights how miserably the Enic Corporation have done in 13 years of running THFC on the business side of the club, failing to find 35,000 Spurs fans on the THFC waiting list seating, failing to get the club into the Champions League in 12 out of the 13 seasons they have owned OUR club, and let's not forget Levy's total failure to make the club a global brand in terms of kit merchandising. It is virtually impossible to buy a Spurs shirt in any sports outlet anywhere outside the UK, because of Levy's total stubborn refusal to allow both Nike and Adidas to take care of the clubs merchandising, marketing, and distribution of the clubs kits, and training wear globally, which has lost the club hundreds of millions in revenue and has lost the club the free exposure that the two masters of global sportswear marketing in Asia, North America, South America, Africa, India and Europe offer. Barca, Madrid, Inter, Milan Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United, (Manchester City have just signed to Nike) etc etc etc, as well as many smaller clubs like Stoke City and Swansea who have have signed with Adidas. But not our Danny boy, It's crap Under Armour (with the worst away Spurs shirt in the clubs history) for us, with tiny kits sales, and virtually no global exposure for the next half decade. Levy don't care though, cause desperate under Armour gave big Joe a 50 million backhander, none of which has been seen by AVB! ENIC OUT!!!
and right on cue....;)
|The thing that annoys me most...we were on track...we steadily invested 10m a year into transfers and re-invested transfer profits into the team....this took our gross spending into top4 and the team followed shortly thereafter...2 years ago just as we qualified we pulled the plug on the transfer couldn't make it up. We were an exciting team beating inter was great exposure and I'm sure we would have started to become somne people favourite Prem team...but we pulled the plug....let's spend the moeny on concrete that we may or may not get people to sit on....we'd already delayed so long just one more year of investement possibly two....imagine If we'd had 3 years of CL now....that would have been great for us and even better it would have been trouble for whoever missed out....
Those figures are based on the last financial results and do not take into account Arsenal's new massive shirt and stadium sponsorship worth 30 million per years (25 million up) or the new deal set to be announced with Adidas.
shedboy - About the 450m debt from stadium... Building stadium did not cripple Arsenal's profitability? What about the Glazer's debt than Man U deal with? I keep hearing people say that we must speculate to accumulate...well the stadium is just that. It is a definite guarantee of increased revenue provided that we stay in the Premiership...hopefully that is a given. Buying expensive players is gambling and not speculating. Champions league revenue cannot be counted on. Arsenal nearly lost out 3 times, and they have another battle this time. Liverpool have completely lost their stadium is back on the agenda. The stadium debt is like a save money in the long run if done right. These deloitte figures show that our owners spend as much as we can without putting us into transfer debt.
I really should read before I post....sorry about all the typo's....
Ive just come back from tour from America, and if it wasnt a UTD or Chelsea shirt i saw it was a Spurs shirt. As soon as the new stadium arrives we will really close the gap on the big boys
shedboy2 - Even assuming your £90m was attainable it still leaves us with less money than Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City. Since I don't know how Liverpool have managed such high commercial income I have no idea whether we can replicate it, neither do you. If you have some magic way of guarranteeing Champions league participation every year then AVB would love to hear from you. Yes it takes time to pay for a stadium, but without it we will always be the poor relations.
Love totty - The costs of running a 60,000 seater stadium are not much different to running a 30,000 seater. The difference is the revenue. The real cost is building the thing.
Just a couple of little snippets that may or may not be true. ........... .................................................................... For the non French readers we are after this guy too ...................Après Moussa Sissoko, Toulouse risque de perdre Etienne Capoue. L’international français souhaite quitter le TFC selon son entourage, contacté par l’AFP. Les Queens Park Rangers et Tottenham sont intéressés. Toulouse réclamerait 15 millions d’euros. ..................................
Shedboy ... we pulled plug on spending because Levy was not going to buy players until a new long term manager was in place. I could cite Dalglish signing Carroll and Adam one year, then next year the new manager tries to flog them before a ball is kicked in his regime. Total waste of money and effort. Levy did it right, but changing manager will always set you back in some ways.
TonyRich- Arsenal have performed miracles buying players and selling them for huge profit....but they already had the Big names and CL footy before they embarked on the stadium, their timing was if we are trying to copy their model we've already cocked it up at the start....likewise Manu can handle the debt because they have huge income streams largely by being a top 'brand' in the say the debt is like a mortgage....but for a house you can't sell unless you throw in the family...and that is what ENIC will do.
Jod - nicely written and I hope some of the fans that think we can compete with billionaires or balance sheets 2 or 3 times the size of ours take notice of this article. We clearly have to open up new revenue streams in the next few years. Under Armour, Autonomy, Aurasma are good cases of where Levy has been out there working some deals to increase our revenues. The biggest 2 gaps though are the TV revenues from Champs League and the stadium we keep aspiring to have. I've said for probably 5 years that even within our natural boundaries we've been sub-optimal. Our squad management and hence monies wasted on surplus players have held us back to the point that we posted 2 losses in 3 years. However, we're now close to being optimal with the last of the deadwood leaving and most players at their natural salary level. Until we sort out the bigger picture finances, unfortunately it's down to AVB to keep us punching above our weight.
Also interesting that Forbes have just valued Man Utd at $3 billion. Now that's scary.
jod your figures show that we can only go from 29% of income through ticket revenue(where we are now) to 43% the highest on the list....yet a 450m debt is the best way to increase our value??? that's 45 years of an extra 10m transfer budget for a less than 10 that investment had us in the top4.
shedboy2 - Arsenal paid for their stadium in a lot less than 45 years, less than 10. Are you privy to some financial information on Spurs finances that the rest of us don't have ?
TonyRich- you speculate as to why Levy stopped spending....I would speculate it's because he got involved with politicians over the OS and has then had to actually spend money and start the stadium moving forward....
What would you have then pelebro? A return to the financial chaos of the Scholar days? Maybe you don't remember, but we nearly went bust under his profligacy until he had the sense to sell out to Sugar who, whilst naive about how football works, had the balls to put in place a sound business structure. Those days weren't great, but we were finally more financially stable & he made sure that he sold out in turn to someone who would carry on & cement that financial stability.

OK, ENIC aren't perfect, but as far as I can see, all they are doing is evolving gradually. It's our impatience with the slowness of their plans that's the real problem IMO, we want it all & we want it now. Sorry, life's not like that & in football we've already seen the casualties of that impatience. Leeds & Portsmouth to name but 2 Clubs who spent what they didn't have in an impatient chase of a dream that failed spectacularly.

I for one would rather wait a couple more years than splash out on a potentially hopeless gamble simply as a shortcut to glory. The best growth occurs gradually.

That said...we're are committed to the stadium now so we must progress but this can not be to the detriment of the team. Rather wait a little longer for the stadium (what';s the difference) than see it three quarters full watching relegation scraps....that's if the 'top' prem teams have not formed a European super league by then....perhaps Real and AC will come and put on a show for us 'poor' in our newly regenerated arena...
Who is that t--t? Ignore him, Spuds. He's an embarrassment
jod- read what I posted again...'shedboy2 - Arsenal paid for their stadium in a lot less than 45 years, less than 10. Are you privy to some financial information on Spurs finances that the rest of us don't have ?'- this makes no sense.
We have Youthful players, Do we really need to spend 25M a season for the next 5 years... I dont think so. The core of our team is very young. Lloris is only 25 and has the best years in front of him. Both of the Kyles are under 24, Kaboul, Vertonghen and Caulker all under 27. Esso is in his prime and has 4 years left at the top. Wingers under 25, Dembele, Sandro, Holtby and Gylfi all can hold there own in the Epl with the eldest being 25. We need one young striker and we are pretty much sorted for the next 5 years. Only needing to buy to freshen the place up
Liverpool's commercial revenue us based upon having a huge fan base in Asia because of their success in the 70's and 80's. Not much we can do to emulate that unless we build a time machine!
Tactically Challenge
No worries micyid, he's only an embarrassment to himself really, I'm more than happy to educate the little fella if I can. At least he's not outright abusive with it.

Why apart form being Spurs fans do we think we have a given right to be in the CL every year. If an independent survey was done asking for the top English teams would we be above United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool in that survey? I don't think so, therefore ENIC/Levy have made us believe we can muscle in with them on a consistent basis and the majority is anti ENIC. I don't understand these people???
Sorry for being off the financial subject.......BUT ..spurs have now been linked with EDER.....Sporting Braga ..forward.
Qualifying for the CL, renovating the stadium, finding new markets, promoting Spurs in places like Africa, U.S.A, china and other places, purchasing young talent from Europe, playing some god damn nice football....will all help! We are on course but it takes more time the way we do things, but as long as we get there right? I love Spurs.
I don't think there's an anti-ENIC majority yiddy mate, just a vociferous minority.

Spuds-U-Like - maybe you're right, I just seem to read more negative remarks than positives.
yiddyboy-who thinks we have the right for CL places? I've not read anyone saying that. I was pro Levy up to the switch from football priority to developer focus
Spuds-U-Like- I agree the best way is to grow a little bit at a time...that's what we were doing 10m per year avg transfer budget but we stopped watering the plant...
TC- Liverpool have a huge fan base based on success you don't need a time machine for that but you can see how long it lasts!....our exploits in the CL against Inter would have got us a few more fans and with communications these days, a decent commercial dept, a bit of ambition and fight and we'll continue to grow the 'brand' let's not throw all our eggs in the stadium basket as we can see it's a small part of revenue.
That's the trick shed buddy, providing enough "water" for growth whilst at the same time harvesting enough success to keep the water flowing.

Feck me I'm philisophical today! Wierd.

Just a quick point. I think we are all (perhaps with the exception of Pelebro) in agreement that our financial position is much improved under ENIC. The argument is what we do with our improved financial position. There are those of us that believe that the most important thing we can do is invest on the pitch to ensure we get improved performances and results which will (hopefully) bring us a trophy or two but also keep us in the CL for the next few seasons. That is were the big money is and where we need to be if we are serious about being successful long-term. That has to be the starting point. Others, however, prefer to invest the money in building us a bigger stadium at the expense of strengthening the team. For me that is putting the cart before the horse. There is no point in having a 56,000 capacity stadium if we're floundering in mid-table and not in the CL or (God forbid) even the Europa League. We need to be able to sell out a bigger stadium every match. If we're not doing it on the pitch we won't sell out the stadium. People don't pay high prices, long-term in the hope that maybe in 5 years they may see a decent team performance. A new, bigger stadium will put us even more pressure to deliver now and keep delivering to keep that stadium full.
Sorry hit submit in error. Once the staium is built (if it gets built) then ENIC will bail out immediately. They won't want to invest in the team to ensure on the pitch performances and success keep the stadium full.
I've been to 13k and 47k attendances at is difficult to get the balance right on the new stadium and player purchase. No doubt there. But Sunderland / newcastle / liverpool / everton...have still managed to get them in, when not achieving on the field. I think it is more to do with Pricing. Usa...and English theme on the scenerio of "Get them in" small cost....better they spending on our products, than elsewhere. me's more about Pricing inside the stadium and using the Screens entertain. Prices can go up and down in reflection of the game and various. Spurs have been and will continue to be entertaining, no matter where they are in the table, if they have the right philosephy and players.
You just know the transfer window is closing because all the "last minute bid" Damiao romours have started to surface again! Apparentlly we're now going to offer them 20 million "according to the Daily Mail" or Fact as that statement is know. If that fails we'll go for Negredo apparently!
Slurms McKenzie
The total Tottenham fan base world wide is 4m, we have a potential untapped revenue from the Season Ticket waiting list of 35,000 fans, (circ minimum £36m revenue) Merchandising is deemed as down from the previous years because we dropped out of the CL in the last 2 seasons. TV revenue is down because we are not in the CL. Liverpool have a whole generation brought up from the 1980's who have stayed loyal to the club and Liverpool's brand is better known than Spurs as is Manure. We dont market enough to our worldwide audience and we dont have a Spurs TV channel on Sky like Chelski or Manure or Liverpool. We could increase our annual turnover by 33% of our total gross revenue if we were back in the CL and had a new stadium. Not only would a new stadium bring in more season ticket holders but the naming rights on the new stadium would offset the cost of the debt accrued by its cost of construction. We dont play in the Far East as much as we should where the potential audience is greatest and we havent marketed ourselves well enough in China or the USA.....Scum got a grant from the Councl for their stadium so we have to foot not only the stadium cost but also contribute to the infrastructure to improve transport and housing......we have the potential to generate a further 45% of turnover if we got the right assets in place for our target audience but we dont...why? Ask ENIC, weve been waiting for a new home at N17 for the last 10 years. If Levy had got the OS we would have had a 70,000 seater stadium at a knock down price but it wouldnt have been home and it came with too many conditions.......that's why fourth is not a hope it has to be a reality.....and that's why we need a decent striker to help us make it come cant do the job if you dont have the right tools!
OyVeh Maria
We're trapped in a vicious circle, we need a top striker to get us champions league football but we can't really spend the money until we get champions league football and we can't afford the new stadium until we get regular champions league but we can't afford regular champions league until we get the new stadium!
Slurms McKenzie
But slurms...we did get CL football, just didn't spend at that time....
I was in Thailand over xmas and the amount of Man City and Chelsea shirts were frightening! Clearly their marketing strategy is working, whether it’s due to their recent success or because their marketing team had the foresight to advertise and promote in another continent I don’t know, but it’s clear that their global brand is increasing. Ultimately though, success of the pitch is the only driver of the ‘spurs brand’ – without it a shiny new stadium would be empty and shirts wouldn’t sell however well they’re marketed! Levy get that striker in so we can maintain 4th! No brainer that would be the best short term investment!
I was in Thailand over xmas and the amount of Man City and Chelsea shirts were frightening! Clearly their marketing strategy is working, whether it’s due to their recent success or because their marketing team had the foresight to advertise and promote in another continent I don’t know, but it’s clear that their global brand is increasing. Ultimately though, success of the pitch is the only driver of the ‘spurs brand’ – without it a shiny new stadium would be empty and shirts wouldn’t sell however well they’re marketed! Levy get that striker in so we can maintain 4th! No brainer that would be the best short term investment!
spurspanther claims he saw a single Spurs shirt out in the USA. Wow! Perhaps you better do a tour of Asia, Africa, South America, India and main land Europe to try and find another one... You will only see Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United etc etc etc shirts out there! But never mind, big Joe has had his 50 million quid bung from crap Under Armour, and we Spurs fan are stuck with awful club kits and training wear for another half decade... Yes Danny boy always give his customers what they want. Champions League Football, Nike/Adidas, lots of FA Cup finals, And it's only taken him 13 seasons not to provide a single Spurs fan on his official 35,000 season ticket waiting list with a seat at the Lane...
transfer deals...who's going where, who's got the best deal etc....all part of the exposure...I think we should look to get some of the pro wrestling marketing guys in, they can sell pay per view when people already know the result...far from discouraging the media circus around the club we need to embrace and use it....
Great article and analysis. It highlights the precarious position of the club and the dilemma it faces. One the hand you have regular CL qualification within touching distance, with the extra £30M-£40M p/a it generates plus the additional publicity it gives to a worldwide audience thus opening further commercial opportunities. This makes the outlay of say £40M or so on players now to make us more likely to receive this regular rise in annual revenue through frequent CL qualification appealing. On the other hand you have the nightmare scenario; investing the £40M in players and, through bad luck, poor judgement, injuries, bad management, Chris Foy etc etc, still missing out on CL qualification and commencing the downward journey into financial meltdown a la Leeds. Its a toughie. COYS
Yes Shedboy, I know we did get it once, hence the use of the word Regular! ;-)
Slurms McKenzie
taking my kids to school we bumped into one of my sons class mates (11yr old) who was wearing a Citeh scarf....he used to support West ham but when asked he said....they're rubbish, I support City now....thats how fickle it is and it's about that age that they really settle on a that kid will probably never go to eastlands but he's already buying their merchandise...
agreed shedboy alot of youngsters base their following on who succesful
Slurms McKenzie
Slurms McKenzie, writes "We're trapped in a vicious circle, we need a top striker to get us champions league football but we can't really spend the money until we get champions league football and we can't afford the new stadium until we get regular champions league but we can't afford regular champions league until we get the new stadium!" What you just described is called "tight as a ducks arse Catch 22" and it won't end until those 2 penny pinching billionaires (worth a combined 4.5 billion) are out of the THFC building...
pelebro, i claimed i saw many spurs shirts. Klinspur, i have to agree i also was in thailand over the new year and the only kits i saw thai people wearing were Man Utd Man city and Chelsea. Altho i met a hell of alot of english people wearing Spurs shirts
perhaps we should all look a the reasons we support Spurs. My brother in law took me to my first game....he was a Spurs supporter...I became one. I hate to think what would have happened if he supported Arsenal!
pelebro,spurspanther is right!Where I live in Asia,I never found Spurs kit anywhere & guesswhat,this year,Spurs away kit hanging right there at the mall.Believe me,For the 1st time in my whole life.This has got to do with that UA that Levy made!
Klinspurs-Those shirts are for the plastic fans who claim to be fans.Shedboy I know a guy who used to support and now supports Citeh!That *****face!
Klinspurs-Those shirts are for the plastic fans who claim to be fans.Shedboy I know a guy who used to support Liverpool and now supports Citeh!That *****face!
Good article. Consider this though Arsenal may have greater revenue now, but as they continue to drop off winning trophies their fan base will dwindle and people wont buy their shirts etc. When I was a lad Spurs and Arsenal were sort of level, but with their success more fans got on board and logically the same applies if we actually start winning stuff instead of having potential. A bigger ground is essential, but we need the success of winning to draw more support. My nephews when they were very young were threatening to be bluddy Manure fans. Everyone loves a winner!
Of course the key to our shortfall in revenue compared to others is the building of a new stadium. With respect we have known that for 12 bloody years and counting, since ENIC stated on taking over that "the priority is the increase in match day revenues, by the enlarging of, or re-building of, WHL. It is absolutely disgraceful that there is yet to be a brick laid, and we are now told the finish date is not until 2018 and this is probably subject to revue, whilst other PL clubs have pushed on with Ground enlarging and building, only for us to look enviously at their superior revenue, it is obvious to me where the blame lies, and how far will we be behind by the time the ground is finished and the increased revenue starts to roll in, which may be several years after finish date. It is true to say that ENIC missed the boat, and have lost vital ground that can never be recovered. There is also an issue re Merchanising and commercial revenues, do we do enough to break in, the strategic signing of an odd Asian player might stimulate sales of marchandise in the Far East for instance.I live in the North of England never mind abroad, but you never see our stuff on markets etc. the same goes in the holiday spots in Europe.
SilwaiYid, why is somebody who lives abroad, but who contributes his £40-£50 for his Spurs shirt a plastic fan. If he lives abroad, or indeed in the extremities of the UK, he is unable from a practical point of view to attend games, apart from the almost zero availability ot tickets etc. having to rely on TV, PC, and other means to follow his beloved team. What's wrong with that. I live in the north of England, and can only practically attend away games, although in the 50s, 60s I was an every game attender at WHL, before moving away, I own several Spurs shirts, much to my wife's annoyance, which I regularly wear with pride to watch our games in the pub, and still consider myself an avid THFC fan, although I have well known issues with our current ownership. I woul consider being called a "plastic" fan offensive and insulting.
Chrislove Sissoko signed for Newcastle on a free transfer last week.
Have to agree with you Frank, I'm am avid Spurs fan but don't get to near as many games as I would like due to logistics and family commitments. Still have contributed to the Spurs team and brand with my loyal purchases and force feeding my three year old a love of Spurs (her fifth word was Spurs). My hard earned euros get spent in the offical Tottenham Store and therefore I think paid for one fifth of Ade's left boot lace!
Slurms McKenzie
lol quality first post
Boom Boom Boom!
SilwalYid- he is an 11 year old...agree with the sentiment but I'm prepared to cut him some slack....
Ricky Villa and Osvaldo....did it for me, but've taken a lot of arsenal crap ! !
A lot of criticism of ENIC here. Don’t get me wrong. I am by no means a fan and have criticised the ownership many times in the past but I think we need to appreciate the context here. Sugar’s tenure was far, far worse. He was in charge right at the beginning of the commercial explosion of football. A time when players wages’ and fees were tiny compared to what they are now. At that point, with the significant residual number of fans we had there was a huge potential to push on and achieve success with required investment to achieve it far, far less than what it costs now. Others, such as Man Utd and Arsenal jumped on that bandwagon. They speculated and accumulated and left Spurs in their wake. Criticism of ENIC is in some ways justified but let’s never forget the nineties. It was an era in which Spurs seemed absolutely content to finish 11th to the extent that one got the impression that Sugar actually relished disappointing the fans. His lack of vision and foresight shows what an overrated businessmen he is. He was at the fulcrum of the movement to start the PL in the first place yet seemed to completely overlook the opportunities available at that point. Sure, he did do some work on the stadium but I recall being told on a stadium tour at the time that the club believed that 36,000 capacity was ample as they anticipated nationwide attendances to drop due to sky TV?? Your fired. LOL. Whatever one says about ENIC, they do at the very least pretend to care about performances on the pitch and since 2005 we have established ourselves as regular top 5 finishers. For a 30 something such as myself who’s first memory of Spurs was the 87 cup final (interesting omen that turned out to be) I can’t stress what a pipe dream regular top 5 finishes felt like by the late 90’s. Indeed I remember being sat on the tube reading a paper and laughing aloud at ENIC’s statement when they took over; the bit about their desire to be amongst the top 5 clubs in England and to regularly compete for champions league. Lets not forget also that they have had to work in a much more competitive environment than Sugar, with vastly larger salaries and fees and more clubs looking to step up and get involved. I have big problems with Levy and Lewis, believe me, but let’s remember the cards they were dealt. Hindsight might suggest that we should have built the stadium first but given the team we had under George Graham can you really envisage 60,000 fans turning up every week? Every aspect of the club; transfer policy, youth development, squad quality, training facilities has had to be completely ripped out and re-started. Unless one is prepared to bare substantial losses year in year out this takes time. Could ENIC be doing a better job? I think so yes but they’re a damn sight better than the last bloke.
@frank totally agree with you re your remark regarding plastic fans. There’s more than one way to support the mighty Spurs! Those who claim the moral highground just because they turn up to WHL frequently should check themselves. The bloke sat to my right at the Park Lane end at the Man U game who spent virtually the whole match shouting abuse at every Spurs player who made a mistake and the many dozens sat all around me who left early at 1-0 down just to get a seat on a train are, in my humble opinion, far more ‘plastic’ than the geezer who lives on the other side of the world but still searches out a replica shirt and who may well get up in the middle of the night in order to watch a game and has to go to work the next day.
The way I see it is that we are currently "punching it out" with Liverpool, Arse and Everton for places 4-6. When you take into account our value + our financial model, it's probably where we can expect to be. Unfortunately the football financial landscape is so totally unfair, that it makes it virtually impossible to compete regularly with the top 3. ManU are commericial juggernauts, their revenue is massive, Chelski and City have rich owners who are prepared to spend and can outspend eveybody else. Building a 55K stadium won't change that. So we battle for 4th with the 3 other clubs I named previously, and it comes down to who wants it the most. If ENIC really really want to cement this club as a top 4, CL regular, then the only way to that will be to invest some of their own money in the team in order to get the edge over Arse and Pool on the pitch. The current financial model of balancing the books through buying and selling players will only get us so far as we will never have enough quality players in the team, at the same time to make the difference. The only exception would be if we brought through a group of talented youngsters, or one of the clubs above us implode. It happened before with L'pool and we cashed in, but success was short lived. As for marketing, I don't think we do enough in Asia or even the US. I don't see much Spurs stuff going on where I live even though UA products are popular. It's mostly ManU, L'pool and Chelsea shirts here, which is a shame as there is a great deal of interest in the PL. That's not surprising when the Cleveland Browns are your home team.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Commercial success depends on the clubs fan base. While we have always had a large loyal fan base in the UK, we are mile behind Liverpool and Arsenal. We were probably ahead of Arsenal in 1990. We have decent following in Scandinavia. We have gathered some new fans no doubt over the last five or so seasons, as we have been improving on the pitch. It's a slow process but we are growing and will keep growing if we start qualifying for the CL on a more regular basis.
What I like about pelebro's consistency is that in the last 49 years we've only finished a highest of 3rd in the league SIX times (never higher), and yet he strangely believes us to be some kind of world footballing super-power that used to clean up trophies all over the shop, and now we're somehow failing to match our previous actual abysmal standards of pure mediocrity. Talk about living in the dark ages. We haven't been good or even great for decades, long before ENIC came in.
Crissybwoy, I have no idea how old Pelebro is, but I am old enough to remember with pride, and some reverence, the achievements of Billy Nicholson and his team in the 60s. There is no need to catalogue it's record again, but suffice it to say it was by some distance the best team in the country. When we criticise ENIC as I and Pelebro often do, it is largely, in my case, due to frustration watching them, as the latest in a long line of owners since the 60s, who have frittered away, wasted, stolen, or given away all the prestige, cudos, respect, and considerable envy generated by that team. It is not all ENIC'S fault but they are the latest incumbents, who like their predecessers, appear to lack the ambition, determination, and financial committment, to get the club back where it belongs. They are the longest in a long line of non-football people failing dismally. We are after all probably 2 players short of being serious contenders to battle Arsenal, Everton, and Liverpool, for a solid 4th place year on year finish. Surely this is not too much to ask, with regards to financial committment, even if that means dipping into somebody's very deep pockets, as the likes of Bill Kenwright an Mike Ashley do amongst others. Nobody expects mega spends like Abramovich and the Mansours, just a slight bung as a rich fan might be prepared to do. My main criticism of the Lewis/Levy regime is that they are not fans, not sufficiently interested in the football sie of the business.
Frank, although I agree with some of the reasoned responses in your post, it's been just over 50 years since our last top-division win. You already agree that we've been mediocre for decades, is it too hard to admit that we've made progress over the last decade? As long as we're progressing, albeit slowly but still progressing, then why does everything have to be so negative? We're building a sustainable model the 'right way', meaning that we don't need to guarantee Champs League to stay in business. We've got the youngest squad with the most potential that we've had for decades, things are going alright. The reason the stadium is taking so long is not just because ENIC have royally pi$$ed-around with it (which they have), but also because we're obviously trying to build it without needing to guarantee a top-four finish to stay afloat. Sorry to be a killjoy but we don't "belong" at the top of the tree as you and pelebro seem to think, we NEVER have done in the past so why should we expect it now? Our glory days are mostly in black-and-white, winning the league a few times over 50 years ago doesn't mean we were once the best team in the world, jaysus, Everton have a far greater history than us, why don't they expect to win the league every year? Maybe they're just realistic about where they are in the modern-era pecking order. The only clubs bankrolled by their chairman in western europe are PSG, Man City, and Chelsea. For the record we have more debt than Everton and Newcastle, so I don't know what your point is. Sorry if it disappoints you that we're not in that select group of three bankrolled clubs, we're stuck with the THOUSANDS of other clubs that have a sustainable model, god it apparently sucks to be us....or not in my view.
topho, it's like Groundhog day, and not even an entertaining watchable one.
lol agreed. I'm off to play poker, I'll log in later to read more of how great we practically never once were, and only for a fleeting moment anyway, and how it's our divine right to go back to days that barely existed.
Have to disagree that everton have a far greater history than us. They might have won more league titles than us ,but we have won more european trophies, more f.a cups ,more league cups, 1st club to do the double in modern times and only club to win f.a cup as a non league side. Overall both clubs have won 17 major trophies
What the figures clearly show is that making it two rounds beyond the group stages adds about 35M to the revenues. Group stages probably gets us 20-25M. It is significant, but moreso for what it does to the revenues of those against whom we are competing. Yes, Liverpool have higher revenues, but the disparity is coming down. They are no longer in the CL and that greatly reduces their revenues though they continue to spend as if they are in the CL. What we must do is to qualify and have Arsenal and Liverpool not qualify. That is a 40 or 50M swing in the case of Arsenal. We would have been better off getting three more points in the standings than worry about the results against AC Milan and RM. Arsenal aren't winning things, but they are keeping their brand in the mix every year. They can be supplanted. Liverpool can be caught. It will all take 10-30 years, but it can be done. ManU, well, that would take 50 plus years assuming they take a swan dive. I like that Guardiola is already unsettling Suarez. Great move that. COYS
the ENIC, are they good owners? debate has striking similarities to the Harry, is he a good manager? debate....those that think they are good point to achieved progress 4th 5th 4th etc others have a list of things that are going wrong now that will effect progress in the future....
shedboy, maybe you can enlighten us as to what will effect our progress in the future? Have you got Saturdays lottery numbers whilst you're there chief? Last I looked we had one of the youngest squads in the whole prem, with a massive amount of potential, and are still doing alright. New training facility opened a few months ago, christ the future looks bleak! Where we finish will have no bearing on whether people like Bale leave or not, just like last season or the season before, if you think Modric would have stuck around just because we made the Champs league then you're mistaken. We reinvested the money we made over the summer, if Bale goes I've no doubt we'll invest that money too into the squad. If ENIC are doing such a terrible job then good luck with Toda, Docherty and Leonhardsen setting the fu(king world alight for you. Audition for X-Factor if you can't stand anything other than instant progress, rather than working for it. Sixth highest revenue earner in the Prem, yet finishing ABOVE our expenditure is deemed failure. Jokers.
Sorry whitehartmart but if you think winning a few now worthless FA Cups makes up for winning the top league 8 times then good luck with that.
'Arsenal's ticket sales came to £117.7m compared to our £50.8m, so they got more than twice our income from that source. If anyone wonders why we need a new stadium the answer is right there. ' Jod. Read more: Thank you Jod for encompassing it so succinctly. 12 years and waiting, and still we have all sorts of wild and wacky excuses from certain quarters explaining why ENIC has brilliantly engineered the non rebuilding of White Hart Lane. Lewis Carroll eat yer fricking heart out.
Crissybwoy- seems like you don't like people to have other opinions, what an angry man....what will effect our progress in the future?....Lack of a striker! If you think only re-investing player sales is a sustainable business model you are delluded and if you think 450m debt will not impact our first team you are Naive. I guess you wanted Harry to stay then...he got us 4th and playing good football....but there's the dichotomy ENIC fired him. If you didn't want him to stay why do you use 'we're doing so well now defence of ENIC' if it is good enough to defend them then surely it was good enough for Arry? cutting...;)
lj, if it came to it boss, would you rather have 8,000 slapped on the current but outdated in-the-modern-age WHL a few years ago, or a brand new state-of-the-art, modern excellent stadium fit for the 21st Century? Forget the hypotheticals, which one would you have preferred if was just a choice of either, and not both? Sometimes it's worth saving a lot more to buy a far better product of anything than just go cheap on it at the first available moment. I'd prefer a much larger, brand new world-class state of the art WHL, I'm willing to wait for it too.
I'm not an angry man shedboy, not in the slightest. I swore once to make a point about our great 90's, other than that I always just say what I see. I appreciate opinions and debate, sometimes it sounds like I'm being condescending when that's just how I type. The window isn't closed yet, I have no allegiance to ENIC though. The point I made about turnover (6th highest in our league) was entirely factual, why we're expected to be doing far far better than we are on our turnover and spending is just bizarre to me. Yes we need a striker, the window hasn't closed yet, just a shame Frazier Campbell has just moved clubs, another avenue closed for us sadly.
Crissy- False argument. It was never a case of either or. Are you telling me ENIC's policy was add 8,000 or wait umpteen years to build a new stadium? No. And in either of your hypotheticals, they failed, as 70 seats only has been added. They took over in 2001, and looked at Picketts Lock. That never came off. They then did nothing until 2007 when the revised WHL plan was unveiled. Then they went after the Olympic Stadium on the cheap. Then they now are back at square one with WHL. They could have dealt with it in 2001/2 and got it under way. They are not 'saving' for it, and now finance will somewhat more difficult to realise, although we, like A**e can service the debt. The crime is that we have locked out 20,000 every home game, and there is no business model that approves that situation. 12 years and counting. There's waiting, and there's taking the pish.
Fair points, I can't argue or disagree with that lj, you're right in what you say. I'm not boardroom level so I'm not privy, I just try and see the good in things.
I'm not even washroom level Crissy, but I still say ENIC is culpable. Good to debate with you. Au revoir.
Guys, I am from Denmark. Have loved spurs since early 1980 or so. Only recently have we had top team status. Before 2006 we were mid table mediocrity. Let us get real. We are on right path. Love spurs.
Gyromancered, Fully agree. COYS
Goddag og velkommen til.
crissybwoy So 8 F.A cups 4 league cups 2 uefa cups 1 european cup winners cup are worthless. You for real
crissybwoy So if we go along with your way of thinking, winning a champions league cup would be worthless too, after all its only another worthless cup

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