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Man City vs Spurs. Hit For Six.

'Right lads let's keep it tight first 20 minutes, you know, feel our way into the game'. 15 seconds after kick-off, we have to trudge back to the centre circle. Nothing like giving the opponents a helping hand. I promised to give an honest opinion, good and bad, some players will be mentioned by name, however they play for my team so I will always support them when they wear the jersey.

Lloris, what can I say, it speaks for itself, it happens, but twice?. Sandro, couple of good tackles, one great one, it is o.k bossing midfield but you have to do something with it. Paulinho the same minus the tackles. Lamela, people just ran past him or pushed him off the ball, needs to toughen up. Vertonghen, really?, schoolboy defending from a player I consider to be one of the best in the game. Dawson, do you see the space behind you when you are parked up Negredo's arse?.

So annoyed with the early goal gift, I actually thought City looked pretty poor defensively in the first half, and when we did get a couple of crosses in from the flanks they looked a little shaky at dealing with them, but as usual we had no idea on how to take advantage. Make no mistake City were very good at times, we were very poor alot of the time. One game admittedly does not end our season, but I did think now was the time to judge how we are performing by the way of stiffer competition in the likes of City and Utd.

Well if this is the first part of the wheels coming off, next week could look very grim. We are looking very slow and predictable, some of the attempted passes through to Soldado were laughable. Yet again we have the possession but do nothing with it, I can't even attempt to try and think of what the causes may be. The early goal obviously knocked the stuffing out of us somewhat, we started to get back into the game, but the things that were giving them one or two problems, namely crosses were not exploited enough. The rest as they say, is history.

Nice to see Adebayor back, he holds the ball up well, hopefully we'll see him partner Soldado on a few occasions now. Dembele looked better further forward and was able to beat his man a few times, he did also have a shot on target. Apologies for the short article, and for not going into too much depth about improvement solutions we may see as viable options, but I really am struggling to find anything positive to take from this game. I do not wish however to base a whole article on the teams shortcomings, they'll be hearing enough of that over the next week, and I'm sure many would have also posted their feelings about the game on OhVey Maria's pre match article.

On a positive note...the missus has just brought me a roast dinner home from work, Oh!..and we've got United next week. Marvellous!!.

Written by Cider spurs




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The journalist

Writer: Cider spurs.  Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Sunday November 24 2013

Time: 7:00PM

Your Comments

Kudos to Pellegrini, he had our young buck figured out. Pellegrini also afforded us a professional courtesy by taking Aguero off. Steep curve for AVB to surmount. COYS.
Arky
Thanks for bothering. I'm sure your dinner will be far better than the football.
Cape Town Spurs
Dawson is a cb who is more comfortable when we have our backs to the wall, in no way should he be employed in a high defensive line which relies on pace and mobility, especially against the likes of Aguero and Yaya making runs from MF, recipe for a disaster, too many times Dawson was too high allowing space in behind and he has not got the pace to recover, kaboul not had much football so im not surprised. At the other end what a difference some presence has, Ade should start against manure IMO.
spurfect one
He's gotta go
mattspurs1982
Cider, I've been scooping cider since 1 pm. So upset, actually loved the team sheet for a change... Attacking. Took a bet with a city boy in the local who wrote 6-0 on the chalk board of the dart board. I told him he was talking ****e and bet him €10 on any other score! Should have laid it on Betfair, but he has the bragging rights... So I don't know what to say. Are we that bad? No! Are we disorganised? Yes. Can we score? Not really. Do I have to hide til February if we lose next week? Yes. Utd fans texting me saying wtf! City fans texting with apologies, gooners taking the p**s, Chelsea fans telling me this and that. All I've been preaching is we are building and it will happen. That was our message to the prem. we sent the wrong message. I don't know what to say. I need to sleep in it but don't think it will feel better tomorrow. At least Cardiff held utd back I suppose!
Dublin Hotspur
city werent even tha good in first half yet g in 3up says it all, daws an kaboul ball watching how an u not follow ur man, city players always between out CD, if you defend like that at school boys levelwe wont be starting the net game, a guy who was almost sold is a 3rd rate CB is ur captain
123spurs
Aguero wasnt taken off casue it could of been 10 he was taken off casue game was won and didnt want him to get injured which is a standard thing to do
123spurs
AVB seems very entrenched in his ideaology of how he wants the team to play,think he is going to have to become more flexible before we improve.My personnel dislike is the regular playing of different combinations from game to game ,never allows players to get to know each others game,also playing players out of their best positions.Stay positive.
sandroman
The way I see it on the day, we dropped 3pts but more importantly we were shown all our failings and shortcomings. We have paid dearly for the lesson, thank you Pellegrini and company. Now very importantly let AVB and company show that they can learn and improve from their lesson. That is the only tonic I fear for the malaise. COYS
Arky
Those away fans. What a disgrace. Sack the lot of them. And sack the home fans, of course. And you lot on the net, and you armchair fans, you're pathetic too, get lost.
5thcolumnist
i want AVB out, i have backed him throughout his time at Spurs but this is the final straw for me. We have Fallen this much behind our rivals and 9 goals in 12 games would be expected of a £30m striker not a whole team. this is the most boring spurs side i have ever watched (born in 1984) and that is what hurts me most not the results.
spurs-stelios
I hope this is the worst it can get, cos AVB had a dismal record at Chelsea...when he strated losing he could not stop losing....this is an extract from the Chelsea web-site...please AVB let that trend not continue......Villas-Boas 's first match in charge was a 0-0 draw away at Stoke City, but four straight wins followed, and the emergence of young players such as Juan Mata and Daniel Sturridge in a new-look front-three signified a new, expansive style of play which the manager was eager to implement. Problems first began to emerge when Arsenal were the visitors to west London at the end of October, and Villas-Boas's favoured high defensive line was ruthlessly exposed, culminating in a 5-3 home defeat. A week later, we made the short trip across London to take on Queens Park Rangers in what proved to be a highly controversial fixture. Both Jose Bosingwa and Didier Drogba were sent off for the Blues as we lost 1-0 to a penalty, Villas-Boas not happy with the consistency shown by referee Chris Foy. A home league defeat against Liverpool soon followed, and when Kenny Dalglish's side returned to inflict another on the Blues a fortnight later, this time eliminating us from the Carling Cup, Villas-Boas's position, as well as the much publicised high defensive line, came under scrutiny. With the vultures circling and the pressure on his young shoulders mounting, he appeared to have turned the corner in the month of December with impressive victories against Newcastle, Valencia and Manchester City. Oriol Romeu, the midfielder who Villas-Boas had unearthed from Barcelona, had begun to make an impact with some tough tackling and intelligent distribution in the middle of the park, and the capture of the Spaniard appeared to highlight the new manager's ability to spot emerging young talent. Performances, though, once again began to dip over the Christmas period, and after three successive draws we were soundly beaten 3-1 at home to Aston Villa. A 2-1 win away at Wolves in early January temporarily lifted the gloom, but a record of two league wins from our next seven matches saw us drop to fifth in the table, with qualification for next season's Champions League in jeopardy. A 3-1 first leg defeat to Napoli in the Champions League, coupled with a 1-1 home draw in the FA Cup fifth round against Birmingham left our hopes of securing any silverware hanging by a thread, and after we were beaten 1-0 away at West Bromwich Albion in the league, the board made a decision to part company with the 34-year-old.
DareSpur
What can yo say, embarrassing doesn't quite do it justice, completely out gunned and out manoeuvred. I'm pointing the finger at Levy, AVB should never have been appointed, not enough experience as a manager, not enough experience in English football, not enough experience in the premier league, a narrow minded almost arrogant approach to tactics. What part of his time at Chelsea made Levy think that 'he's the guy'. I'm sure AVB is doing his best, but this has been coming for bl%&dy ages, no papering over the cracks with a dodgy penalty or deflected goal being well and truly smashed by a team that we should be challenging completely undermines the work that has been progressing over the last 6-7 years. He's had the money, he's had the signings, our players individual talent is being quashed because the bloke at the helm does not know how to use them. Levy next time, do the obvious thing, get a proven experienced manager, doesn't even have to be experienced in the premier league just a manager who plays attractive controlled football who will let the players do what they do best. I think AVB has another 3-4 games, we get smashed like that against UTD could be one of his last.
coys1717
How many more opportunities to learn does AVB need? We were rubbish last season and only Bale saved us from being where we really should have been. AVB has had a full season and 12 games to 'learn' and he's learnt nothing. He will never learn. He isn't good enough. We can accept it and try to change it or ignore it and endure a very difficult, dull and depressing season. I've had enough.
SpuriousLife
mmm come on boys turn it around
Uskok
DareSpur that post scared the ccr@p out of me. Hopefully come January we will still be just 2 points of top 4 and we will still have hope. And btw he is only 34 ???? wtf was levy thinking?
logos8
The Klinsmen in ballyhoo starts now!!Yep! AVB has been found out, I don't know one Spurs fan who knows what our best team is let alone our manager...did anyone see Hoddle's idea on Sky Spurts? Theyd've been beaten 9-0 in his 1998 version of a Prem side in this game. I feel sorry for Soldado, so isolated in a toothless Spurs attack again, yes Dembele looks better employed in an advanced role, he can drop a shoulder and get passed his man with, WOW a shot at the end of it!. Lamela needs to man-up, a prospect in Prem terms but wanting and unbelieving in his abilities to beat the man ahead of him and as for Dawson, cut him in half he's all Spurs through and through but through him was a gaping hole of ineptness. Chiraches will forever demote him to the bench. Holtby like Erickson is easily pushed off the ball and lacking REAL vision. Ultimately Spurs don't have any combinations on the pitch that seem to talk or communicate with one another...I don't see them being talkative. I've played county level and still play decent level football and paramount is the ability to affront your fellow players be it in a positive or informative way (Man on for f***s sake, TURN!, SPACE, etc!!!). I digress, we have too many round pegs in square holes and not enough leadership. Moan Utd is a massive game, we've not beaten them at The Lane since 1999 (Oh! Carr!) and will determine either a mid table,7th-8th or a fighting Top five position. The downscale was evident today!!!!
slim40
come on lads and do us a favour, and BEAT the Rags,from a Happy City fan, and today i was actually apprehensive about the game i thought we would Struggle againt the meanest defence in the league..... just go to show how wrong you can be,keep you chin up someone of note was going to get battered by us and a top 4side too, not the likes of Norwich but you can be sure it wont be the last time we put 4,5, or 6 goas past a team this seaon..... Arsenal are up in the next 3 weeks so who knows....
cityman51
Bring back Arry
arpant
No
logos8
AVB's 100 page dossier on the opposition, qualifications and FIFA badges didn't help him much today, perhaps FIFA needs to teach a little more of the "get out there and ******** run around a bit" philosophy.
MrSpurs
Why would 'Arry want to return to a club that sacked him, arpant? Levy has made a mistake again, by appointing AVB as Manager and a Director of Football who has wasted a large proportion of the Bale transfer fee on buying Soldado and Lamella. He's done it in the past with Ramos and Comelli, etc. Levy is fixated by the idea that he must appoint an unproven Continental coach and a Director of Football. He only reverted to 'Arry out of desperation when Ramos was found out, but still then went and appointed AVB. We'll never get anywhere with Levy as Chairman, but Lewis wont get rid of him. We can only hope that Levy sees the error of his ways, but don't bank on it.
ultrapunch
AVB is too young and naive. I think he over complicates things. He has no experience as a footballer. I could go on and on but i have backed him until the last three or four weeks. AVB needs to go now. I would be very surprised if AVB can hang onto his job with us for the rest of the season.
asherthesmasher
I'm starting to lose faith, gotta be honest. When you put todays result, or rather the manner of the defeat alongside the Newcastle and West Ham results and consider the 1-0 wins which have been gifted through some dubious officiating we've been unbelievably poor. AVB's tactics are too rigid, the formation and personnel are irrelevant when he's trying to direct every aspect of their game. His man management also hit a new low by stating that we wouldn't buy a LB in January. Why do that before an important game where you're planning to play someone who doesn't want to be a LB in that position? Totally thoughtless. You gotta also wonder why he switched to the 4-4-2 fans have been asking for in a situation it was doomed to fail. Tactical naivety or a prelude to him pointing to it as an example not to use it in the future?
flipper
I have to say, since Villas-Boas has taken over, I've seen very little cohesion or teamwork. In fact, I'd say there's been absolutely no improvement whatsoever. Last season was a free pass as far as I was concerned. There was a media circus surrounding Redknapp's departure, especially when we replaced him with someone who previously failed in the Premier League. Most of the squad was inherited from Redknapp's reign and our signings had pretty much been tied up before he arrived, notably Vertonghen and Adebayor, as well as Sigurdsson and Dembele.

Last season we saw the same as this one; failing to break teams down, shaky performances at the back etc, but I felt at the time, while Bale was seemingly running the show, I understood that this can be of detriment to the overall team performance. What I realised we needed was a summer where AVB got the players he wanted in, got rid of the players he had no time for and he could manufacture a squad for which his ideologies and tactics could be projected on to.

That brings me to this season. At the start, with many new signings, most of which being new to the league as well as each other, I was willing to give a few months for the season to really kick start, as long as there was steady progress throughout. That's unfortunately where the story seems to be ending. What I've witnessed is a series of completely stagnant performances where we don't look threatening or even in control. Despite (up until today) having what was deemed an excellent defensive record, I felt that we looked extremely shoddy when teams actually had a go at us. Our build up play, if you can call it that, has been so slow that players are literally walking with and without the ball. Newcastle could afford to have no less than 3 players marking Andros Townsend, but where most teams would exploit the space left by such naive tactics, we allowed each player to saunter back into position while we knocked the ball around in slow motion.

I would argue that not only our team efforts have stagnated, but individual players are suffering for a whole host of reasons. Lamela, though I obviously realised would take time to acclimatise has looked way below average for the Premier League, let alone a side like ours. I believe that Mousa Dembele's performances have gone completely downhill. He looked exciting and incisive when he first arrived, but has since seemingly forgotten what made him so good in the first place. Paulinho looked very promising when he first arrived, with a combination of skill and solidity that you'd want out of a box to box midfielder. Emmanuel Adebayor went from scoring 17 Premier League goals to scoring 5 under AVB, and while we were quick to jump on Ade's back, the performances of Roberto Soldado this season, who scored 30 goals in 46 games last season, will tell you that any striker, possibly in world football would struggle in our toothless side.

It's easy to say all this after a heavy defeat, I know, but it'd be interesting to see how many points we got from INDIVIDUAL moments of class from Bale last season and where we'd have ended up without them. Just as interesting would be to see where we'd have been without 3 silly penalties given to us in the league. By silly I mean penalties where challenges by opposing players were unnecessary and probably wouldn't make now, knowing we can't hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

The answer to both questions I believe are that without Bale we'd have slipped into mid table last season, somewhere between 8th and 12th depending on how "glass half full" we're feeling. This season, we've gained 9 points from penalties, which leaves us 6 points worse off (assuming we would have drawn each game) leaving us mid table. This simply isn't good enough, nor does it look like getting better. Today was the first time we've been without a goal in 3 consecutive games for 5 years, the first time we've lost by 6 goals that I can even remember (would like to know the last time actually) and it was a performance (similar to Norwich's thumping) where it looked as though the players had given up on their manager. I have to admit, if he did get sacked tomorrow, I would be lying if I said I was disappointed.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
Also, a couple of things which still leave a sour taste in my mouth. Selling Steven Caulker, who had a decent season last year, making a decent number of appearances across all competitions and a player who I believe to be worthy of the number 26 shirt at some time in his career. I believe that he was already on the same level as Jan Vertonghen and would have been his ideal partner. So he sells him for £8m despite being (including Andros Townsend) our best prospect at the club. Instead he religiously plays our transfer listed captain, who unbelievably could have been sold for more money than Caulker last season, despite being half the defender he is and despite approaching 30. Going back to Vertonghen, I can't help but feel his pain. One reason he chose us over Arsenal is because Wenger wanted to play him as a midfielder, whereas we'd play him as a centre back. It seems we lied. Instead of playing him at centre back, we're playing him at left back because our first choice left back is on loan in the Championship and our second choice left back is injured, with our third choice left back deemed not good enough. Mind boggling stuff.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
Bernio Villas-Spuras good post
logos8
BVS - a lot of good points there mate. It sounds like I'm anti AVB but I'm not I want the guy to succeed as much as anyone but it just isn't working and this is a squad that AVB has built so its not like he hasn't had financial backing. We need to stick with him, sacking the manager is worse thing we could do right now but AVB needs to sort it out quickly, 4th has already gone in my mind.
MrSpurs
As far as embarassing defeats go this one takes some beating, no pun intended. A loss to one of the most expensively assembled sides in the history of football would have been accepted, but today's total capitulation is unforgivable for a team with top four aspirations. Ultimately the buck stops with AVB as he picks the players, but can you legislate for someone as experienced as Llorris to gift them a goal after 15 seconds? Any game plan is totally out of the window before the first minute is over, than you concede an own goal, 2-0 down and what choice do you have? Defend a 2-0 loss or try and give it a go knowing, that the likes of Silva, Negredo and Aguero will pounce?

Some poor performances today, some players just not good enough and AVB needs to start earning his millions to sort it out. I still think it's silly to call for AVB's head, I would be shocked if he is sacked this season unless there is an absolute meltdown. He will get money to spend in January, I can see three players coming in, It's not that we haven't got any money to spend, Levy hasn't dipped in his pockets this season.

Can't believe that the team that outplayed Arsenal, Chelsea and Everton away for big chunks of those games are all of a sudden total crap. Let's bounce back with a victory against United. COYS.
ItalianYiddo
Wow Bernio, you don't post much on here anymore, but when you do you certainly know how to "smash it"
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Who would people bring in come January? We have creative players, defensively solid players, box to box players, decent wingers and decent finishers. Without the matching philosophy of the manager pulling the strings, it doesn't matter who we bring in. I honestly think we'd be in the same position if we had Karl Henry and Lee Cattermole in midfield, such is the lack of urgency and skill that seems to be demanded of them. The cheque book is not the answer, it's our entire footballing philosophy that needs a total rethink. Hopefully Villas Boas can be that man, but other than being young, I can't personally see what he's brought to the table. If he was 25 years older then I'd argue that nobody would care if he went tomorrow.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
AVB has to go after United beat us next week. Total shambles, he's lost the dressing room.
jordtheyid
Thanks Cleveland. I've been politely stewing my thoughts for a while and I didn't want to come across as knee jerk which is why I've barely mentioned today's performance and instead I've chosen to share thoughts I've harboured for a while. They seemed inappropriate during what I considered to be a transition, but now the dust has settled and we seem to be on a downward spiral. Think I could forgive today's farcical display if this was a City side romping the league and running away with the title, but they were a point behind us and they're going through a similar transition.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
Our squad is wasted on AVB. He can't and never will be able to get the most out of it. He is too stubborn, too negative and plays football that is sideways and backwards. His emphasis on pointless possession in pointless areas of the pitch makes us totally impotent. You could have Messi, Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic, Falcao and flipping Pele in our squad but if they are forced to play at only walking pace and with everything sideways or behind them we'd still be rubbish. Good squad + poor manager = no hope of success. Poor squad + good manager = possible chance of a little success but unlikely. Good squad + good manager = good chance of success. We have a good squad.
SpuriousLife
A quality left back is a must, a striker as Defoe is not good enough and Ade only plays when he wants to, not good enough and a naturally left sided player, I.m sure Baldini has his targets in mind.
ItalianYiddo
Come on Bernio Villas-Spuras, do you honestly think that City were going to stay behind us for long? If they don't win the title they will be second to Chelsea.
ItalianYiddo
And this crap about Verts being played at left back, are people that thick that they think it's a permanent solution? He knows he is filling in until it gets sorted.
ItalianYiddo
Please do not blame any ONE player as this was a poor team loss. Losing a goal so early and in the manner we did meant we had to chase the game and with their quality picked us off at will. We did NONE of the basics very well but the main concern was we had no cutting edge. Our fans singing we gonna win 6-5 was comiical though. Kudos for staying in the ground.
CoysRus
Maybe they will, but my point remains the same. So far, City haven't been firing on all cylinders and have suffered inconsistencies. They're not invincible and yet they turned us over with considerable ease. This is despite several new players and a new manager. In other words our stale start to the season cannot, under any circumstance, be excused.

I feel let down, simply because we have the players we've craved for years now, and I felt Villas Boas would play a similar style of football that his Porto team displayed. I thought we'd found the balance. A young manager with a young team of players he can relate to, who would let them play uninhibited until we got a more than comfortable lead but was then tactically astute enough to be able to see games out. In reality we play like we're 3-0 up when we're a goal down, or a goal up, or drawing. We don't seem to have a game plan, instead aiming for statistics which make us look better than what we are. For instance, Tim Krul made 16 saves or something daft against us and in most games we've dominated possession. Great stats, but when you watch our games it's a different story. First and foremost we should be entertained as fans. We're all stakeholders in the club and deserve to be rewarded. It currently feels like we're being punished.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
Bernio, good posts mate. FYI we have lost by this margin only 6 times in our history.
spurfect one
No, ItalianYiddo, we're not thick, merely highlighting the fact that our best centre half is currently disgruntled at being played out of position when we have no need to be short in that position in the first place.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
Bernio, we all love to be entertained but we all complain if we suffer a heavy loss. I was at the Newcastle game, hardly boring, plenty of entertainment there but you know what? Not one smiley face on the way out. I also beg to differ on your assessment of City that "project" started a long time ago and is well funded.
ItalianYiddo
IY sometimes in football you concede goals really quickly. It's all well and good having a gameplan to start with but you must have flexibilty for a lot of scenarios that happen in matches, at the minute we only have one way of playing and no flexibilty to react to different situations.
spurfect one
spurfect one I agree mate, I am as happy as you are but it was never be an easy task to bring in 7+2 players in and hit the ground running, has it ever been done?
ItalianYiddo
Bernio, our first and second choice LB are injured, Ekotto had some awful games last season and was put out on loan. You can argue that it wasn't a wise decision but if his attitude wasn't right the manager has to take a decision.
ItalianYiddo
Of course hitting the ground running was never going to be easy, nor should it be expected, but we're quickly approaching Christmas and we've not shown much if anything in the way of cohesion. It's also the same way we played last season, seemingly out of ideas before the whistle blew to start the match. Let's put it this way, under Redknapp the most frustrating matches were when we came up against a resolute defence, couldn't break them down and possibly conceded a goal. That seems to be the case every game now.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
I'm not ready to discard AVB yet. Harry left the squad in a mess and the club lost its best players. AVB secured our highest ever points tally and we're 12 games in. No manager can be blamed for his players making individual errors. That's nothing to do with his philosophy or tactics on the day. That just happens. Only team selection can change that if those players keep making errors.

We do need to become more expansive in our football though. We need to start taking a few chances when we have the ball and be prepared to lose possession. It's not as if we're bad at getting it back most of the time.
muttley
So chalk it down to one of those games where the best team doesn't win. City got lucky but surely our luck will change soon.
Slurms McKenzie
IY no it has never been that easy, nor should it be an excuse to collapse after conceding an early goal either. What im trying to say is we have been coached hard to beat and solid but when it comes to chasing and being more expansive we have not got a clue, i'm like you and want a bit more patience shown, but historically Levy is not so patient especially when the players values decrease due to poor performances.
spurfect one
The best team won by a mile Slurms, and 9 out of 10 times they will, they are the better team, they gave us a lesson a couple of seasons ago at home 1-5 if I remember right.
ItalianYiddo
spurfect, Levy has little choice but to be patient and it will pay off. I agree AVB and the team need to up their game, no excuses for today's shamble.
ItalianYiddo
Italian, only if you want to embrace a crazy standpoint thats based on nothing more then reality
Slurms McKenzie
It is beyond coincidence that so many players can all hit the wall on the same day, it can only be explained by the fact, that exactly as at Chelsea, the players are being asked to play in a "system", or more accurately a "shambles" that a) they don't believe in, or b) understand. We are asking accomplished experienced international footballers to play out of position, and out of character, for what, to satisfy the theories of a 34 year old green horn coach, with no playing experience, and whose sole claim to fame was 1 successful season in Portugal with somebody else's team, that was full of top class players in a Mickey Mouse league. He has now had 2 jobs in the EPL, and has displayed the same qualities in both, a lack of tactical knowledge, the inability to set a team up properly, strange and inconsistent selection ideas, a massive ego and attitude that only he is right, and therefore there is no need to change, poor man management skills. I thought that clearly on display today, after the West Ham and Newcastle results, was a team going through the motions, resigned to defeat very early on, and not really determined or eager to fight, a team lacking belief in what they are doing, and who they are doing it for, in short the coach has lost the players. In fact the last 15-20 minutes were painful to watch with every Spurs player just waiting for the final whistle. We are breaking all the records, losing margin at home in PL, biggest defeat in the PL for Christ knows how long. This guy will never cut the mustard in England, he lacks the required knowledge and experience, there is no soft ware that makes a good coach. Many of us said he was the wrong choice all along, and believe me it gives us no pleasure to be proven right, but something must be done and quick, before damage is done that will take a long time to repair. How long do we expect the likes of Lloris, Verts, Sandro, Paulinho, and Eriksen amongst others, to hang around a club that it is a shambles, they are all quality players that haven't become poor over night, all would be sought after elsewhere, and none can afford to damage their own international standing or reputation, for the sake of a coach who should display "L" plates on his back in the dug out. Come on Mr. Levy admit you have got it wrong, after all it's a long way from being the first time, get rid, and let's find somebody with the background, the competence, the experience, and the ability to command the respect of the players, to mould what is a bunch of quality players into a coherent squad/team, and start the repair job. the end of the season will be too late, Christ knows how far down this clown will take this great club by then. So much for the new direction, it is now patently obviously the wrong direction.
Frank
Lloris gifted them two goals, and the rest is irrelevant because that sealed it - everything else was a consequence of his shocking lapse. All the weeks training, preparation,plans go out the window when you're 3-0 down in the first quarter of the match - no team can come back from that away to a team like City.
Totally ignoring that and blaming it ALL on AVB is more out anger at the humiliation of it all - not saying AVB is blameless at all. If anything, his handling of the Benny and Ade situation may still result in him losing his job.
Durbanspur
The similarity in the perceived qualification to manage Spurs, between this guy and one One Day Ramos are scary. He came having cracked eggs with big sticks in Spain, and was on schedule to getting us relegated before he was outed, and the situation rescued, please Levy don't allow history to repeat itself.
Frank
Cider, he aint even put the fffffing wheels on yet!!.....oh i see this is the excuse thread. Bring it on.
tophobunty1882
Durbanspur, today was a culmination, not a surprise or a one off. We have to consider the humiliation at home to West Ham, the loss at home to Newcastle, the abysmal Goals scored stats, our goal difference being in the minus and akin to teams at the bottom of the league, the fact that we have been rescued from 3 0-0 draws by penalty wards at least 2 of which were dodgy, our inconsistent team selections, tactics, or lack of them, the negative, boring football on offer. Today was just, or should be the final straw in a list of factors all of which are taking us gradually down the league.
Frank
Full credit should be given to the hard core Spurs supporters who traveled to The Etihad and were singing to the bitter end, it's a shame that in his after match "statement" AVB didn't offer a profound apology to them, for the humiliation they had been forced to endure for 93 minutes. When he said that the players "should be ashamed" did he once again excuse himself from that, after all he picked them, coached them, set them up, and presumable briefed them on the game. The fact that it all went tits up, is down to him at least as much as the players, the same as when we win he wallows in the credit for it.
Frank
I am a staunch supporter of AVB but even I am now concern about our performance under him. The rumblings of discontent will only get louder unless we start getting some convincing results and more importantly better performances all round. I still have hope. COYS
Madaboutspurs
Frank, AVB said everybody concerned should look at themselves after that performance.
matt hoten
Loud belly laughs have been heard emminating from a seaside house at Sandbanks, Dorset, I can't imagine why.
Frank
Matt Hoten, I'll send the prat a mirror in the post.
Frank
Frank, I am not dismissing any of the points you raise - in brief, I'm just saying that he is running out of time as opposed to 'he must go now'
Durbanspur
Our next 5 fixture include 3 of the top 5, we have Man Utd and Liverpool at home, and Southampton away, sandwiched between these before Xmas, we have also got Fulham and Sunderland away. Then by the time the window opens we also have WBA and Stoke City at home, and Man Utd away. We will certainly have a very clear picture of where we are by the time these games are played, we clearly need to dramatically improve.
Frank
We lost away to city. We played badly, yes. But it doesnt really effect our season's ambition too much as I wouldnt expect too much from such a fixture anyway. How will we react is the question. I think keeping tight at the back ,as avb usually prefers, is a must. This allows us to pick up points even when our attack is misfiring. We must remember that we are not playing at our best and are still only 4 points of 2nd place. Fixing our attack is complicated. Playing Ade, lamela, townsend and dembele together is an option. Playing 442 will get us demolished, but that is also an option. Giving soldado more time may be difficult.
2ndeleven11
Keep the faith people. A win against utd and we'll probably be a a couple of points of 2nd. Maybe this loss will be a catalyst for a big jump in our performance level. Just remember that we've kept picking up points trough this rough spell, which is the most important thing
2ndeleven11
sandroman ... I agree ... AVB needs to pick the same team in the league for a few games ... otherwise we're never going to get it right.
Geofspurs
We someone who is creative in midfield. We are not finding a way through to gaol despite some excellent build-up play. We also need Benny ... I've always liked him and always thought LB was his position ... okay, he has a rush of blood at times, but who doesn't?
Geofspurs
Cant blame the avb all the way. Atleast he played with 2 wingers. Problem with this season have been our slow build up play. Even spam can do well against us without we having a clue to try something else. Sure *****ty was way better team but after that game I need to ask Levy to send me a bottle of gin and some weed twice a week if he wants to keep us finnish spurs fans happy.
FinnYid
'need'
Geofspurs
Reposted ... This is the biggest disaster since 1882! We are now 2 points off of joint fourth place and 4 points off of second ... that's nearly the amount of points awarded for wining one whole game!! I cannot remember a Spurs team being in such an unenviable league position in the 53 years I have supported them. I really think we should all give up now. I mean, for God's sake ... what is there left to play for? And the story gets worse ... there are only 24 games of this season left, so there is absolutely no coming back from this loss against a mediocre team like City on their own ground ... is there?
Geofspurs
Embarrassed and Angry. Unacceptable but perhaps not the end of the world. Found it amazing that when Ade was subbed in, he was moving forward and asking for the ball and got nada. Lennon only player running AT defenders...real team malaise in the final third, no service and poor corners. Read somewhere that Spurs have the fewest offsides in BPL and one can see why. The team as a whole has not the slightest creative idea what to do once they enter the final third...Very timid and lacking...Why no Townsend? I will give Kaboul a bye as he is just coming back but donkey dawkins was halaciously bad...Most telling statistic is that Aguero has more goals than Spurs combined...Unacceptable...He is a striker that aggressively runs AT players...where is ours? City not that great...(see Dortmund game)but we made them look like ruthless gods. AVB had better pull the bung out because certain players (ie. Soldado) have completly lost their confidence...This is a good team playing very, very poorly right now and Man U will destroy us if present team attitude prevails. I am angry that we have signed all of this talent that now seems adrift and gooners make one...just one mind you signing and get it completly spot on! The natives are restless and AVB will have his own downward spiral unless he starts bailing water.
CharlieTott
Let's face it, a 6 goal calamity happens now and again. The opposition plays a blinder and they all go in. But with Spurs the thing I simply don't get is the NIL.
Wyn Mills
All blame AVB, the Fu(king players are the disgrace Lloris two school boy errors Dawson no mans land Nogoalado is a waste of fu(king space they are all to blame not just the coach he needs a kick up the arse he looked absolutely clueless 2-0 after 30mins and he sits on hands Ade should of been on after 2nd goal went it ... Soldado has to be dropped waste of space making Rebrov look good in a Spurs shirt !!!!
E17YID
topho....Prior to yesterday's game we were still in contention for champs league place. A win would've seen us in top 4. Whilst i agree we have not looked convincing in a lot of our games thus far this season, still being up and around the champs league placings (pre match) points to the wheels at least on, if not moving. Another showing like yesterday next week and i'd suggest the wheels haven't just come off, but the whole b/oody cart is wrecked.

As for excuses...Not for me, you may recall that on numerous occasions that i thought we were not all that last season, and that Bale enabled us to finish where we did. IMO it was not a true reflection of how we performed as a team, but more about Bale's brilliance. We have started IMO, how we finished last season. 7 new signings meant i had to give benefit of doubt, i actually still think most of the players are good enough, but for me,it was not the losing yesterday, but the manner of the loss. Is AVB in over his head?, does he over think things?, is he too rigid in tactics?, based on what we witnessed yesterday blame has to be directed at him also. Schoolboy errors for most of the goals have to be factored in, and whilst many will look at the scoreline and question the defensive failings, and rightly so, for me, it is right through the current set up. Where was the final 3rd again?, they didn't look all that at the back in the 1st half, is this AVBs tactics that are stopping us from playing to our strengths?, so many questions and he is the manager. He has to quickly learn to get the best out of this team, if not, he may just find himself surplus to requirements, and or, some of the talent that we do possess may just seek pastures new. No excuses....and no repeats.
Cider spurs
Some cracking reads above, great to read peoples opinions. I'm still very much stunned and a little concerned about the long term result and benefits. Due to the fact that we cannot score any goals, the entire team is now starting to play with fear and also a lack of composure. Frustration is building up and team chemistry is floundering. This result was like having a heart attack. The signs and symptoms were there and we crumpled to the floor and were ruthlessly exposed. We need to recover from this as quick as possible.
The PL is a brutal world, whether it is AVB's fault or not, he is now under serious pressure to keep his job.
thenuge
I thought surely I would not be seeing another collapse after the Brisbane scenario this week-end and then along come Spurs!! No excuses the manager should be taking the blame clearly on his shoulders, this has been coming for weeks now. Knocking the ball around aimlessly in Midfield waiting for the opposition to punish our school boy errors!! 100m+ spent this summer is their really any improvement on the first team, or does the manager actually scout any of our purchases(Soldado)for suitability how he wants to set up the side in games?? I for one have not been happy in the last couple of months with our play, but have always tried to support the manager. I am now really having my doubts about him, and beginning to wonder is he also beginning to lose the changing room, with all the rumours of players starting to get linked with moves away??
WestStandEnclosure
£100 mill and you fu**ed it up, £100 mill and you fu**ed it up, £100 mill and you fu**ed it up, £100 mill and you fu**ed it up, £100 mill and you fu**ed it up, £100 mill and you fu**ed it up, £100 mill and you fu**ed it up, £100 mill and you fu**ed it up
PiperUK
WALKER - Recent young player of the year, now cant cross a ball under AVD. EKOTTO - Recently one of the best LB in the prem, not in the squad under AVB (causing defence issues) HOLTBY - Recently bagging assists for fun in the Bundelsiga / Champs League with Schalke, now looks lost under AVB LAMELA - One of the hottest prospoects in EU football, now looks a waste of space under AVB PAULINHO - Looks amazing for Brazil (BRAZIL!) yet doesnt look half the player for Spurs under AVB ERIKSEN - Got the most asssits last year than any other EU footballer (or close i think), can't get going under AVB SOLDADO - 20 league goals in the last 3 seasons for VFC, now cant hit a barn door under AVB DEMBELE - Looked bright on his debut as an attacking player, now out of position and form for over a yea under AVB Quality players dont turn sheite over night, the one common factor here is our clueless leader. AVB OUT OUT OUT
mattspurs1982
What AVB's trying to do won't work now and it won't work in the future. You can't just shoehorn a philosophy designed for a 4-3-3 into the 4-2-3-1 we're playing. If he wants to play the current formation he needs to drop the defense deeper and invite a bit of pressure from the opposition so our own players have space to work and we can add variety with the occasional quick break. Doesn't mean we can't still have periods where we play from the back and retain plenty of possession, just puts more of an inclination on moving it forward more quickly and opens up riskier but more rewarding opportunities further up the pitch. If he wants to keep the current tactics he needs to switch to a 4-3-3 where the wide men are pushed forward and the creative player is further back naturally creating more space for individuals to work in. There's no issue with inverted wingers limiting service or a lack of a creative player, the issue is simply that players never have to pass more than a couple of yards and end up slowly pushing forward right from the back getting more and more condensed as they do so until they end up effectively defending against themselves by removing every pocket of space to do anything worthwhile. We just need the right tactics for the right formation...and save what we're currently doing for when we've already got a decent lead. Obviously none of that may have had much effect yesterday, but conceding early is far less of a problem for a team that still believes they're able to get goals back. If things stay the same I can see these thrashings being a regular occurrence purely because all confidence in the system will be lost any time we concede a goal.
flipper
And can we please stop with this "AVB got us our highest ever points tally" crap. BALE got us our highest points tally, not AVB
mattspurs1982
One final point, will people also stop classing this Man City result as a "one off" and that this sole 6-0 defeat is the reason for the AVB out calls. We have been awful ALL SEASON. If it wasnt for the penalties, we'd be in a dog fight with Stoke and Palace (who i think have both cored more goals than us!!!!). West Ham and Newcastle - were they "one off's" as well? How many more are you willing to give this clown? If we get someone with a football brain in now, we might just challenege for the top 4. The only way is down at the moment
mattspurs1982
Fantastic game. I haven't laughed this much in years.
Armory
Excellent post Flipper. Unfortunately our manager doesn't have half the vision or tactical awareness that you do. The biggest problem for me is the obvious fact that the players have thrown the towel in. This hasn't just happened yesterday it has been festering and growing for the past couple of months. We started the season with the players at least showing some fight, togetherness and support for each other. Since September however this team spirit has slowly evaporated to the point where we now find ourselves. No fight. No spirit. No belief. No togetherness. No desire to put themselves on the line for the club. Most significantly no belief in the manager, his approach or his tactics. That has to be the end for any manager. When you 'lose the dressing room' there is no way back. The longer we wait the worse it will get. We saw it with George Graham, Juande Ramos and even Marin Jol. Once the players give up on the manager the only solution is to change the manager. We need to face the reality of the situation and deal with it before it gets even worse.
SpuriousLife
Some great points guys along with the usual panic buttons pressed. Let's face it, yesterday we went to the Etihad where City have been formidable this season, we gifted them a couple of goals (1 after 13 seconds) and the rest was history. The key difference is when they attacked they looked likely to score, where as we didn't. The main difference though was Aguero, he bullied everyone including Sandro. We need to pick ourselves up and move on, humiliating yes, end of the season, no way. A win next week puts us above United ffs!

Lloris still had a hangover from the French qualifying game or Freidel was playing in a Lloris shirt!
Dawson and Kaboul were both dreadful.
Vertonghen looks like he's fed up playing on the left, which is unprofessional of him.
Walker and Sandro were the only two players that looked like they cared
Lennon did OK but nothing special and was it really the best time to give Lamela his start?
Soldado is very difficult to judge, he isn't an Aguero type player who makes things for himself out of nothing but for the type of player he is we really don't provide him with a lot. The only chance that would suit him was the cross from Walker I believe in the first half. Was it poor position from him or just unlucky?
Holtby was poor, just poor.
Dembele looked a better player in the more advanced role, however can that be because the City midfield were cutting some slack as the game was already won? He did look like he enjoyed the bigger pitch though!
Ade, did he show us what we've been missing, not in my book.

The stats do make you laugh though. I believe we had more possession just edged out on shots on target and lost 6-0. Therefore, the positive we can all take from this defeat is, stats are irrelevant, please do not post with stats anymore.
yiddyboy
Ozzies, ref cashing in his bet in the 9th round, then this..... not been a worse weekend for long time, ever probably.... Levy isn't scared to make a decision and the only question is whether he can find a new manager nit whether he'll sack AVB,,,,,,, Monday is going to be shi1.
T.H.F.Chris
mattspurs - that's ridiculous. So AVB gets no credit for our highest points tally yet is totally culpable for our biggest defeat. So why couldn't that idiot Redknapp get the same levels of performance out of Bale then and how come we were relegation form for 2 consecutive second half of seasons under him? Also, so penalties don't count. Quite frankly, if our defence hadn't gifted them 4 goals yesterday there would be a lot of conversation about 2 penalties that weren't given. City didn't deserve a clean sheet and I thought both were penalties.

If Dawson, Kaboul, Vertonghen, Holtby, Lloris and Sandro had got out of the right side of bed yesterday it would have been. Instead they capitulated with schoolboy errors. It's nothing new from Dawson and I've stopped arguing with people on here how poor a defender he is. At least Hodgson has figured it out and AVB's instinct was also right when he joined the club and we should have taken the money.

I'm not saying there's not issues with the way we're playing but I'm still hoping that this is transitional rather than a permanent state. I've quite enjoyed that for once we have a Spurs manager who followed the basics of football management and built a solid defence and spine of the team first. It was OK for Fergie, Mancini, Wenger, Graham, Mourinho, Ancelotti etc to do it that way when they won league titles. The finesse comes later once the players know how to keep clean sheets. I see what AVB is trying to do but do have worries that the players can't get their heads around it.
muttley
The Utd. game will be interesting as they are very average at the moment and should be put away easily, but can we do it? Not on the evidence of the last 18 months. And then there is the January window problem. If we continue to deliver the same performances will Levy throw more money at the "project" or will he hold? Which quality players will want to come on-board? The time for excuses and apologists is over. AVB has to deliver a change of seismic proportions with his players, his team and no more excuses.
Harry-Kari
Muttley -we all know Bale saved us last year. Nothing to do with AVB. And Yes he's responsbile for the shambles, he's the manager after all who doesnt have Bale to save his a$$ this year
mattspurs1982
And Muttley - i'm not focusing on yesterday's game. Yes they had an off day, but we've been sheite all year.
mattspurs1982
So these international superstar experienced professionals cant get heir heads around how to play AVB's football??? Causing more then 7 of them to play utter tosh whereas for their national teams / previous teams theyve looked class. Answer? AVB.
mattspurs1982
Muttley, highest points score doesn't compare with 2 4th places, plus Harry was crucified on here for playing Bale on the right from where he won us so many games last season. Also, if you think AVB has built a solid defence what you saw yesterday was what has happened all season but other teams haven't had the skill to exploit us.
Harry-Kari
That result yesterday was a car crash waiting to happen for the last couple of months. The writing was on the wall since the spammers game our lack of guile when attacking has been on show all season now and the best part since last Xmas. So many players to have an off day at once is clearly not something we should be expecting from an expensively assembled team this is not the dark old days of Gross,Ramos and co is it??
WestStandEnclosure
The sad truth is we have been forced to sell off the Family Silverware Modric,Bale and VdV and gone out and replaced it with crap from Ikea!!
WestStandEnclosure
muttley, the system is flawed, it's not how we should be starting games, but how we should see them out once a more open style of play has seen us a goal or 2 ahead. As a starting point we will always struggle to get a goal from it, no finesse will develop because there's no room for it and if the opposition break through and get a goal first, well we've seen it, the confidence gets eroded so much because the players know it's a system that doesn't yield goals and they collapse completely.
flipper
Not on here to gloat but I find it amazing how people here are still supporting AVB and suggest that he should be given time to turn it around, like he's had a full season plus about 40% of this one. How much time does he need or how much time do Spurs fans need to see how bad he is?? You have gotten steadily worse over the past 8 months, Bale over papered over the cracks last season but the negative uncreative football was there for all to see, it was just the spark of Bale blinded many. Too many basic mistakes (the high line, the inverted wingers, allowing Townsed to constantly be on the pitch) show me a manager who is far too sure of is own belief (despite the results suggesting otherwise) to be a success. He will be gone by the end of Jan at the latest.
Galway Gooner
I see that the scales are finally falling from the eyes of the Blind Faith Brigade - those that have had the good grace to show their faces that is. The worst thing that can happen is for this to be considered a one-off, Aguero was brilliant, fortress Eithied blah blah blah. This was a group of confused and deflated players clearly feeling the pressure of failure to meet personal expectations. Next weeks game has taken on ridiculous significance now. A must win game against United ffs. No doubt in my mind, lose it and he's finished. Nobody to blame except himself, the signs have long been there for anybody with a smidgen of football sense to see.
Love totty
Well the feeds are flying in, pochettino favourite to replace AVB, laud rip also in the running. Could be worth taking him at 33/1 on paddy power? I still don't know what to think after a toiled sleep last night. How can virtually every player have a howler when everyone seemed so geared up for it?
Dublin Hotspur
Muttley, what is AVB trying to do that you can see but the players cant? Please explain. Totty that's all as it is sadly. City were without Hart, Kompany and Silva too.....bigger ouch, why kick off with your forward facing his own goal? To me this sums us up at the moment more than most things which followed yesterday. United are VERY average right now by their standards so we will have a big chance next week to set this right.
tophobunty1882
Dublin - the Liffey Water has addled your brains mate. An accident waiting to happen except it was no accident.
Love totty
Not forgetting Santini of course WSE, while i'm sure AVB will bear the brunt of the criticism Levy CANNOT be allowed to get away with such ridiculous appointments time after time. The only appointments he got right at the time was because Jol fell into his lap and we were battling relegation so like ghostbusters'who ya gunna call' you call Redknapp.
coys1717
We completely gave up after the second goal, and while worrying it is not surprising. the game plan would have been to frustrate them, dominate the midfield and don't let those monster strikers get the ball. lloris' first gift after 14 seconds would have been so hard to take given how hyped up the players likely were, nevertheless we responded well in spirit if not in end product and we were the better team until lloris gifted the second goal. then the game was over and frustrations just kept boiling up. I am amazed we ended with 11 players on the pitch. AVB is an intelligent man but he needs to rethink a great deal. He is trying to impose a theoretical way of playing football based on a high line and dominating possession but it stifles our creativity and ability to score. the best case is that we snuff out the opposition and win 1-0, suffer an early goal then we are in trouble fast.
Guernman
Our AVB saw off Caulker for Dawson, BAE for a broken Rose or out of position Verts.

Plays Verts out of position.

Managed to buy a striker who may be great two yards out but cannot bully, out pace or create a goal on his own.

We moaned at Harry for playing players out of position, AVB is doing the same.

We kicked off yesterday and.....played slowly backwards and eventually passed back to Lloris for a punt upfield to the opposition, who then scored, exactly the same for the second goal.

We play so slowly it is painful.

Man City aside, we have been so poor this season, we lost at home to West Ham And Newcastle for Gods sake.

Cannot see players wanting to come to Spurs now for the vision of AVB, perhaps some on a final payday!

Can see players leaving at the seasons end though.

We are bottom of the top half of the league with a goal difference of -3 .

Managers have been sacked for less, will AVB suddenly sort this out? Cannot see it myself, sorry to say, Dead Man Walking !

Really enjoyed my day at the Eitihad yesterday....Damn !COYS !

ro6ertj
I posted way back in the summer my concerns about the highline and how i thought if Dawson was going to feature on a regular basis how we may struggle. He is not suited to this style, he struggles with the stick or twist aspects of the game. I love his old fashioned attributes, guts and glory, body on the line type football, the aerial battles. However, he is not suited at getting back from high up the pitch once the line is breached, he lacks pace, the same can be said of Verts, but because of Verts tactical reading of the game it usually leads to him making the right decisions in the first instance, thus not having to enter too many races with strikers.

I also wrote an article prior to signing Soldado and Eriksen asking whether we thought that the creative player able to link play and set up genuine goalscoring chances was more important than the level of striker we required.The general response was that we needed a striker, and that point was one i could not disagree with, but i did question at what level. My argument was do we feel a world class playmaker was needed to create numerous chances, or, a world class striker to despatch chances when they came along. Now i'm not knocking Eriksen or Soldado, it may just be that both of these elements have been met, as of yet it has not been witnessed though. Is this as a result of the way we are set up?, or should we have placed more emphasis on the creative side?. 3 previous games, no goals, £26 million striker. We are not serving him, the whole system looks wrong.

Yes prior to yesterday we had a very good defensive record, however it can be argued that some teams have parked the bus and only looked to hit us on the odd counter. Those that have had a go have been able to breach the line enough times to suggest we are not as tight as we think we are. The better teams, as witnessed yesterday did not have too many problems. Player mistakes granted, but for me all this looks wrong. Let's drop the highline back, free up a bit of space, instead of denying the opposition space by pressing high up the pitch, let's deny them space in our half and invite them on to us a little more. yes i'm sure we would like to win possession back high up the pitch, it's nearer the place we want to be, namely their goal, but when you consider how much this is stifling our team it beggars belief.

We have some real tough tacklers in DM/CM(trust me we do, i know it's hard after yesterday), we have some real pace out wide, we have a striker who given the opportunity can be lethal in the box, we have a striker who can hold the ball up and wait for others on the counter. In Eriksen we have somebody who has placed in European top 10 for assists in the past 3 seasons, one who is capable and adept at playing a little further back than the 10 role. We are not playing to strengths, IMO we should be the ones playing the fast counter attack football, draw them onto us, let the space appear further up the pitch where we need it to be. Let the Wingers keep the width, keep them in positions where one swift pass will allow them to bomb forward down the flanks with others galloping forward on mass anticipating the cross or cut back. The room will be there, because we created it by allowing the team to come onto us. Any doubts about defending in front of our box, Dawson would be more suited to this than the highline IMO. Capoue could drop balls over the top, Left, Right. We are creating our own undoing by playing the totally wrong tactics. We have power, we have pace, we have creativity, we have goalscorers, and what we have most of all, is a manager who is trying to fit it all into the last 3rd of the pitch. Detrimental to our strengths, we need room to operate, with the correct players in the roles, week in, week out. I believe they are starting to lose focus, to be fair of late i'm kind of feeling a bit bewildered myself. AVB, drop it back...or drop out!!.
Cider spurs
Galway - how much time have you given Wenger in the last 5 years? Yes he won league titles prior to that and we know he's a great manager but Arsenal persevered with him when a lot of the football world were calling for his head. I know it might be difficult to see through our lens but in the last 2 summers we've seen 13 out and 6 in followed by 10 out and 7 in. That was the mess that Harry left the squad in and we've still got senior pros like Livermore, Khumalo, Falque and Ekotto out on loan and Gomes sitting on his hands that we're still to shift. What Spurs need is stability. We need to stop the revolving door, get the squad down to max 25 and let it flourish. It's easy to blame AVB right now but there are so many variables in play. 1 year and 4 months is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The good thing though that is at least if he goes our squad will have a lot of talent in it that a new guy can work with. It's knee jerk calling for his head this early but it will be interesting to see whether the hangover continues into the Europa League on Thursday. In that competition AVB has let the team play with freedom and been somewhat free-scoring. That shows he knows there are other ways other than possession and slow build up.
muttley
Well done City, they are looking a different team from the one we beat at the Etihad last season. It goes to show how some hard work can pay off. Great to see Lamela and Adebayor get a game, Dembele looked lively but too many of our players were not up for this one. Looking forward to the next game, we have to better and put some of these chances we like to make in abundance away. Not enough goals from us this season, more please! COYS.
SpursOne2
Dublin, we lost at home to Newcastle last game but most on here and the manager argued the second half was our best performance of the season, why make so many changes? I know it was home/v away and all that stuff, but AVB is just building a catalogue of puzzling decisions and the results are starting to look sad for him, much sadder for us. I read on here, I think from one of his BIG supporters on the match thread yesterday something like...."well at least we know where Dembele should play now" well yes in the position he played so well at Fulham, why should AVB just be learning that now? Why has he played him in the wrong position so many times? We are all hurting right now and it's at times like this when you need stability as much as anything, the problem is we are now so much between a rock and a hard place because all the evidence is pointing clearly to the fact that we have a leader not fit for purpose. We really are in a very difficult position. Tough decisions need to be made all round but first some good decisions need to be made on the pitch, starting with for once picking the best side for the job next Sunday. I hope he is capable, he doesnt look it right now.
tophobunty1882
It was a perfect storm yesterday....mistakes from -Lloris, Kaboul and Vertonghen. Sandro (what's up with being sick on the pitch again?) was a little too eager to push up and vacate the middle in front of the CB's...and Daws got exposed (yet again) in the high line, our attack is yet to be sorted...Add to that a team who have excellent forwards prepared to counter attack us at home...and the result was a landslide (even though I didn't think we got battered!)
shedboy2
Cider - agree, Dawson isn't right for the high line but he has never been right for any back four I've seen him play in. King coached him through some games and kept him alongside him but most of his career he's been all over the shop. In fact, even this season he has sat back on the 18 yard at times and stubbornly dragged the team back putting pressure on the midfield (e.g. West Ham). What needs to happen is that he's reverted back to a bit part player rather than a regular pick and captain. Now is the time to get partnerships from Chiriches, Vertonghen and Kaboul with someone else captaining the team.
muttley
I don’t like seeing Vertonghen way from CB. I know he had a few good outings on the left but it’s not for him. Too many defensive errors, strange considering our good record so far. Because of this we rightly ended up on the receiving end of a ruby score. AVB has to pick up now and the lads have to step up. Roll on the next game http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/city-away-andre-241113/
SpursOne2
Right I haven't commented at all since the game as I wanted some time to cool off. As most will know I am a big AVB fan, but this defeat showed up all of the problems we have at the moment. I still think AVB can get us top 4, but this defeat has to be the wake up call that convinces him to change personnel and shape. Dawson has had too many chances now, and must be gone in favour of Chiriches and Vertonghen. For me Naughton must come in at left back until Rose is fit. Soldado too must be dropped. I would play both Defoe and Ade, with Ade in the 10 slot. Dembele and Sandro in the middle, with Lamela and Lennon out wide and alternating. Far more open, but at least we might create a bit. I would play this team against Tromso on Thursday to test it out, and fitness permitting against United on Sunday. Then we must keep the same team if possible. Dawson, Kaboul, Paulinho, Holtby, Sigurddson, Townsend and Soldado on the bench.
Sebastian Short
Whatever happens against Man U, I don't think AVB will be sacked. He might walk of course, he's a very able, rich and at this moment, truth is, we need him more than he needs us. Of course, many of you will disagree with that.
No, in my experience of life, with setbacks, up against the odds, under fire, then in the short term the team and management have to pull together. I still stick to what I have always said, he will have till Xmas. The 5 games against ManU, Fulham, Sunderland, Saints and Liverpool will be the deciders, taking account also of the bad defeats against Newc and Man C.
For me, the worst decisions he has made were against Newc, particularly with the selection of Siggurdson. Anyway, its no good delving into ifs and buts and hindsight. The players were poor yesterday, all over the pitch. Do we expect AVB to take the goal clearances? do we expect AVB to shout to Verts "use your left foot not your right"? I am not making excuses for him, but highly paid professionals should be able to deal with the basics much better than they did yesterday. That said, if he has lost the dressing room, then its ultimately down to him.
jacobslad
Muttley - Wenger was operating on a restricted budget where each summer we lost our best player and bought a lower quality replacement and yet Wenger still managed to keep Arsenal's league position pretty stable. During this time I was calling for his head but with hindsight I can clearly see how well he did! I don't think you can compare AVB and Wenger to be honest. AVB has spent over 100m this season (plus what ever was spent last season) and the team has gotten worse. You lost your best player and of course that is a blow but players move on all the time, its how you deal with them that tests a manager. I look at the players you bought and I think that for a start you overpaid on them, secondly they either don't seem to fit or don't seem to know the system they are playing and finally that as individuals they should be performing better than they are. What's really damming is that you are looking worse game per game.

Your next five games are Utd (h), Ful (a), Sunderland (a) Liverpool (h) and Southampton (a). Can you honestly see many wins in that sequence? The lack of fight in the team is startling. Remember the whole argument that buying all these dominant box-to-box type players would allow Spurs to bully teams about? And yet a team with Sandro, Paul, Capoue gets kicked off the park and really doesn't put in a shift!

Maybe your team needs a CTJ moment when you will all wake up and start to play at the level you should or maybe AVB is an over-rated, stubborn and tactically naïve manager who simply working at too high a level for his ability?

Galway Gooner
So what do we do now? Sack AVB? for who? how long will they take to show if they are taking us in the right direction?...2 games...2years? and then what of Levy?...he's the man who sacked a top4 manager and re-introduced a system that has failed every time we try it...surely he should walk if AVB does?...
shedboy2
3 points: (1) On AVB – when you have played at the top level of something, be it a sport, or in business, or anything that you have come to understand from the inside – you know things and are aware of things, tacit knowledge, that an outsider won’t know, and probably won’t see that they don’t know. For me now, having supported AVB up until now, I have concluded that there is too much thinking, too much structure, tactics and rigidity in how he does things – and conversely not enough ease, or openness to flair, or creating opportunities for players to express and not repress themselves. So I think his shortfall in not personally having top flight football experience – for him anyway, not necessarily all managers – is counting against him. (2) I also wonder if we have too many great midfielders who could be in the team – so no one is secure in their place, and there might be a strain being team mates whilst being rivals for places. There’s no consistency in selection and so there may be too much insecurity and feeling that it is easy to lose one’s place. Competition can often promote healthy tension, but it seems, especially in DM and AM, we have a lot of players, almost all of whom would expect to and want to and need to play every week – Dembele, Sandro, Paulinho, Capoue, Holtby, Eriksen, Chadli, Siggy, Lennon, Townsend. Ten players – if we only had six or seven, might that be enough? (3) I wonder if psychologically AVB is a person in life who likes to have possession(s) regardless of whether they are useful, likes to be in control of things, doesn’t take risks, think things through a lot or too much, is cautious, and is good at not letting things slip away too far but is not good at progressing and taking advantage? In business that would be a middle manager not a leader or pioneer.
paddyspur
Don’t know what to say really, battered 6-0 by a team that didn’t really play all that well. One thing that is crystal clear after yesterday, Soldado IS a complete flop. Crap touch, crap movement, can’t shoot, I think we were definitely sold a dud. Negredo (the player we could have bought five times in the last 5 years) is looking like a PL goal machine. I honestly think if we lose to united there will be calls for AVB to go. I actually quite like the bloke but we have been well and truly found out. I can’t think of how he can turn it around TBH.
hudderspur
Galway - Were you one of the Wenger out parade last season?

If the players are doing what AVB is asking them to do them of course AVB is to blame but you can't blame AVB for childlike erros ala Lloris yesterday. If you listen to AVB's comments you will hear that we should be ashamed, all the preparation work went out the window after 13 seconds. He is gutted, we are gutted. We need to unite and move on, unfortunately the vulchers will be circling and no doubt the boo boys will be out in force next Sunday. AVB needs to find his best team and let them have a run of games. We need to be a little more adventurous but the high line and Dawson just CANNOT work. If Dawson plays, we need to change formation. We need Rose back too. Football is a results driven industry, if we can pick up a win against United on Sunday then the pressure switches to Moyes. I'd like to see us start with Soldado and Ade for a few games, whether that is in a 442 or 433 it doesn't matter but we need to create more chances for the strikers, most of our chances are from distance which is the problem.
yiddyboy
Muttley even when Arsenal are sheit they make CL. Get perspective here mate. Muttley in the thursday spoon we are playing Scunthorpe.....Shedboy come on mate, stand up, you called it yesterday and got it wrong, so did AVB you both need to understand when you make mistakes admit it and try to learn. You can do it mate. Now lets focus on what the real problems are and try to find a solution, where do we start? Oh yes Townsend, that's it......................Cider Dawson has never been best endowed to play a high line, that been clear for 6-7 years, we all know that, it's just not news to anyone other than AVB it appears, he is a decent defender in the box, full stop.
tophobunty1882
tops- got what wrong?
shedboy2
I don't understand how Townsend is the solution when he has been in the previous 10 games that involved the defeats to Newcastle and West ham as well the other poor performances that people are talking about. Is he a option, Yes but just the same as all the other options at Avb's disposal.
Kong
topho...And what of this high line, we camped in Newcastles half in the second half, created so many chances that Krul declared ti his best ever performance. For me we do not see this enough, firstly because we are usually so laboured in getting the ball forward, and secondly, when we do there is no room to operate in. I say drop it back and let's use Townsend and co as a pacy counter threat with room to run in to. Any thoughts?.
Cider spurs
Yiddyboy - I wasn't last season as I could see the basis of a team coming out and it was pretty clear that improvement was coming (didn't think we'd be this good this season). But the season before last I did shout Wenger out a few times!

To say that all plans went out the window after 13 seconds is a bit simplistic - no one wants to go a goal down early in a match but surely playing away from home the manager has to have a plan on what to do should you go a goal down??? There has to be a plan B for these events!!

Too many errors being made week after week should a stubbornness that is beyond belief!! Dawson with a high line? Townsend does nothing, absolutely nothing for the team and is constantly selected, paying £30m for a young, creative and obviously highly rated player and then destroying his confidence by showing a total lack of belief in his ability and then there's Soldalgo, 20-30 goals a season his entire career and they you play a system or play players in that system that means he will never, ever score! No wonder he's pi$$3ed off and has given up making the runs - no one ever passes to him, its left to that waste of space Townsend to shot for 50 yards away!

Galway Gooner
Too many poor performances yesterday, the pressure is there and will be there even if we beat Man U but that will be a start by winning next Sunday.
Kong
Kong, who said Townsend is the solution? But is he the problem? We can base yesterdays performance on the fact he is unlikely to be the root cause, which appeared to have been the source of so much debate on here for about 4 weeks, ably steered by Shedboy. it's all in the archives you can look through it again.
tophobunty1882
Kong, he isnt the solution, he isnt our savior BUT he isnt THE problem or even A problem, which is what some of us were saying. This Spurs squad is talented, but they are playing beneath their level as a unit. It's down to the manager to fit the pieces together and make it work.
Guyver
paddy, I agree your point 2. Having so many midfielders could be a negative. Of course we have had injuries to Sandro, Capoue, Eriksen, but I think there are too many for a contented squad. I still think we might be getting there though...siggy being eased out, next will be Daws, possibly Soldado, although with the latter are the alternatives any better?
People talk about loaning BAE, but he hasn't set the world on fire at QPR. Still makes the usual mistakes that in PL would, and did, cost dearly. Much rather have Tom Carroll back personally.
jacobslad
thanks topho, I typed that for nothing!
Guyver
Still sore from yesterday but what can you do when you gift 2 goals away to a top side away? We could have shut shop and lose 2-0 but I wonder if we would have complained about not giving it a go? "Boring Spurs..this is not the spurs way..I'd rather they had given it a go a lose 10-0" would have been said or similar. AVB imo would have been shot regardless what went down against City which to be fair wasn't his fault we were 2-0 down. COYS!
James1
I never said Townsend is the problem but only he is not the solution either. The way we play is the problem and if we keep playing like that there will be no solutions. I would prefer to see Townsend on the left but don't think that is going to happen. Topho - I thought you meant that Townsend is the solution from what you said.
Kong
Anyone who thinks AVB can get us top 4 after watching spurs this season needs their heads examined. Please dont operate heavy machinary, drive a school bus or fly me to Germany next week
mattspurs1982
Yiddy... after 13 seconds from OUR kick off OUR keeper should be be receiving the ball, why? who is instilling this saideways and backwards culture? the players? AVB has had long enough to understand what his best 11 might be from any game, I think it would be good all round now if we stopped making excuses for him.
tophobunty1882
tops not once did I say Townsend was the Root cause of our problems...but he certainly wasn't part of the solution. If anyone 'called it' and got it wrong it was you who campaigned for Townsend at the start of the season...he played about 8 games more than he should imo had he not it would have given time for a real player to 'gel'...should we have thrown AT on yesterday to score us a goal...oh, he doesn't do that does he?
shedboy2
Don't blame the pass to the the keeper. Blame the pass to Kaboul. COYS!
James1
This is a vindication of the AVB philosophy. We gave City too much space by not playing high enough and acceding to fans demands to play heavyweights like Holtby and Lamela. Complete and utter nonsense I know but I just thought that I would say it before some other apologist does.
Love totty
I wasnt Harry's greatest fan, and I guess I got a bit greedy wanting more but, h3ll, I was entertained. Under Harry, I alwasy thought he could come back. Even 2-0 at the Ethiad i thought we have something in our bellies to come back. Under Harry I think we had won the most points from losing positions than ANY OTHER TEAM. Now, we go a goal down and we flatline. Teams know if they score once, theyve got 3 pts.
mattspurs1982
Kong, you have it, the way we play is the problem and there are a number of factors in the fact that we are not playing well. They include, we bought a number of players who are not what we need and or are not likely to be that great in the prem, at best some may take a very long time to adapt. We are setting up the team too often in a way which is not the best possible option. The tatics used are not working more often than not. The players are starting to look on occasion lost, esp if the plan a is not quite going to plan.
tophobunty1882
Shed you said on a number of occasions on here simply drop townsend and we will start scoring goals, well we did and we didnt. I am not willing to invest 1 minute of my life in listening to you trying to turn this round, so i will not read anymore of your posts for a week, which is about the average period of self justification on this place. Sorry mate, I am with you on so much of what you post so often, but I cant do this one with you.
tophobunty1882
What we're seeing, in my opinion, is a manager who has all the intelligence in the world but who lack the humility to accept his flawed thinking and adapt accordingly. He obviously has a very strict, disciplined, and in his mind effective strategy mapped out which he believes whole-heartedly will win football matches. The problem is he seems unable (or unwilling) to alter that strategy and preparation in any way regardless of the level/tactics of the opposing team, or to do so during a game when the masterplan clearly isn't working. This is not a brand new approach for him, he clearly had this strategy in place during last season. And certainly in the closed season where he was busy buying players that he surely must have earmarked for roles and positions in that framework he was creating. With that in mind, it was a monumental miscalculation to spend top-dollar on Soldado when he is in not and never has been suited to a lone striker role. It was also criminal not to bring in a quality first-choice left-back, and the decision to sell Caulker and persevere with Dawson given the high defensive line he's so set on is looking more and more ridiculous. I had a lot of faith in AVB, but that has worn away to the point of being virtually non-existent. I do feel he's on borrowed time now, because he come across as being far too stubborn to admit his approach isn't and won't work, and so goals will continue to be at a premium whilst we will always be susceptible to attacks from any team with a bit of imagination, patience, and pace. People are talking about Sunday being a must-win game, and as far as AVBs position is concerned then it may well be. But just look at the current Man Utd team. That isn't a must-win, it's a SHOULD-win!! Sadly, I do not see that being the case at all. For shame. Come on you beautiful Spurs!!!
LilyWhiteHart
Quick solutions - stop playing 2 bl00dy DM's at home, play 2 strikers or an additional ATT MD, play players in their bl00dy positions and move the ball quicker than a lead lump through treacle!!!! Really not difficult.
mattspurs1982
tops- you may want to re-read...I said if we want to score we need to play players that score goals...don't expect to score lots of goals with AT in your side etc etc...I fail to see how I've been proved wrong? AT has never scored or created goals in whatever side in whatever division he has played...the issue yesterday wasn't AT (how could it be?) so again I fail to see what I got wrong? or why you are trying to turn it into an AT discussion?
shedboy2
I don't think the players we brought are the problem either, I think whichever players we brought would struggle in this system. We are taking class players and making them look average. We get Lamela, don't play him for 11 games then give him a start against Man City away on the left, I was happy to see him in the starting line up but wanted him on the right or in the middle. This does not help player's confidence.
Kong
So it appears the early front runner to replace AVB is Pochettino(Southampton), closely followed by Laudrup(Swansea). No doubt Klinsman will make an appearance at some point, all finished off with a Poyet link i'd expect. AVB has the chance to right some wrongs and secure top4 at best IMO. A new manager will see us more than likely have to call this season a most definite transitional one as opposed to one where we could develop into a top 4 side. AVB has to sort this, and the players have to stay united. If AVB goes, this season will yet again be about building for what might be next season with a new manager. If he stays and overcomes the issues that we are currently experiencing through sheer determination to make the team work as efficiently and productively as it should, then maybe, just maybe all may not be lost. It does need fixing very soon though, if not we'll quickly slide down the table whilst watching all of the great players i believe we do possess seek pastures new.
Cider spurs
The board members who vouched for AvB should follow him out the door in my opinion
mattspurs1982
mattspurs...."board members should follow AVB out the door"...How about bored fans may walk out the door.
Cider spurs
Cider, if you have your full backs pushed to high up the pitch and lose the ball as easily as we did yesterday the two CB's are going to have a big problem, esp if one has no pace, its a hard call time and time again asking walker to use his extreme pace to dig us out so often, yesterday he couldnt and it didnt work because we played a top side instead of the fodder we have been struggling against previously. I think so many things were wrong yesterday in the way AVB approached that game that, he almost needs to start again and go on a basic FA coaching course, it was that bad............................Guyver, we see a lot of things the same way one here, seeing yesterday the same way was an easy one I guess and sad it was too......Lilywhite as insightful as ever mate.
tophobunty1882
i am sick of the references to AVB's intelligence. Why the bloody hell is this important. the only bloke who ever uses the word intelligence in a football parlance is bloody Wenger, he is as obsessed with it, as some on here. AVB doesn't need intelligence, he needs football knowledge gained from being there, doing it, buying the tee shirt etc. ideally both as a player, and a manager. He also needs to gain the ability to admit he got it wrong, and to change when necessary, and to play a system to suit the PL environment, and also to suit his key players, most of whom he was responsible for signing. The one word that could be used to sum up his qualities, or lack of them, is INEXPERIENCE not bloody INTELLIGENCE, we are playing football not chess. Would anyone readily describe Billy Nick, Bill Shankly, and SAF as intelligent, I don't think so, many other descriptive phrases would be applied first.
Frank
Cider - i think top 4 has already gone mate. There are 6 better teams than us with no sign of improvement unless, as you say, AVB finds a way to completely change his philosophy. I for one doubt it, as do many other spurs fans who have come to terms with only scoring from the spot. On occasion.
mattspurs1982
Good post Frank, he does tend to think his head up his arrsse in some form of crusade to look like a clever coach. He isnt looking that at the moment and I am less than sure he did last season or in the close season with his shopping list. ouch....
tophobunty1882
Cider, I think it's possible to argue that AVB would have to change so much about this current system it wouldn't be that much different to having someone new in anyway in terms of transition. Obviously there's a case for saying he already knows the players, but that could be a curse as much as a bonus if some have lost their belief in him. I honestly don't know what's best, but what does concern me is so far AVB's only solution has been to swap players around within the same structure rather than develop or adapt his tactical plan.
flipper
ElClassico..... http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/spoof-roberto-soldado-video-starts-doing-the-rounds-on-his-lack-of-goals-for-spurs/?
tophobunty1882
mattspurs1982
Spot on! If the team played with the same style, the fight and the commitment as they were playing two years ago, supporters would see something to feel optimistic about. OK, there would be some defeats. But at least people would still be awake by the final whistle, rather than bored into slumber.
Having said that, I'm frequently too agitated, waiting for something to happen, to feel sleepy!
Hotspur 1882
Cider ... good post re play counter attacking football. Worked well not long ago ... and everyone agreed we were the team to watch in the Premiership. We have the players to sit back a bit and hit on the counter. It was worrying to see the players looking dazed and not knowing (seemingly) what to do. The affect this will have on individual and team confidence cannot be overstated. The biggest confidence issue, however, could be the one that the players have in AVB. Another loss on Thursday would be like a kick in the guts after a punch in the head! Have not finished reading all posts yet.
Geofspurs
Topho will you listen to yourself. You won't read Shedboy2 posts for 1 week. Who do you think you are. What a joke. COYS!
James1
Friday ... Liverpool 5 v Spurs 2 .... Monday Spurs 7 Liverpool 2. Three days between these games featuring 'The Double' team in 1962. It's a funny old game and, so often, unpredictable.
Geofspurs
topho...fair point mate and a valid one ref: full backs. My point however is, why do we have to push the fullbacks so far forward in any case. This is what i am saying let's sit the team as a whole further back and revert to a Left winger and a Right winger as traditional wingers, thus not requiring the full backs to provide the width through overlaps all the time. We could then let the likes of the opposite winger run to the back post Soldado in the box, paulinho in and around along with whomever the 10 is. We will have space to run the channels, by all means if the full backs wish to overlap on some counter attacks, let the winger run to the box and keep Paulinho back to get over and cover. We do not have to set up so high, we are creating more problems than positives IMO. Power and pace is within our ranks, but we are set up to see all too little. I'd love nothing more than seeing Townsend with the ball at his feet and have the best part of a half of space to run in to, as opposed to the 20 yards max he is often afforded as a result of the highline squeeze tactics. Pace alone will not win us matches, but i'd suggest whilst many are still finding their feet in the prem, allowing them a little more room to operate in may go some way towards helping them return to the playing level they were prior to signing. Invite teams on, bang, we're dwn the other end, we're moving at pace, as a unit, players running into the box anticipating a cross. Seems so much more sensible to me.
Cider spurs
Geofspurs
The Easter fixtures of 1963, I believe.
Hotspur 1882
I agree with many of these posts but, bad as it seems, we are 4 points off second place, have a great squad , and a manager causing concern. We will now discover if AVB is intelligent and flexible or arrogant and conceited. Whichever it is, there is a solution.
Geofspurs
Although most of us can accept a defeat at Citeh, it was the manner of the defeat that was worrying. For me the home defeat to Newc was unacceptable, it just wasn't the right team selection that day(IMO). If we'd have won that game we'd be fourth today. The Mancs games were always going to be hard, we desperately needed the cushion of a victory against Newc. However, as we have seen all season with other clubs 2 back to back wins could see us climb rapidly. The next 5 matches will determine AVBs future and our season.
jacobslad
2ndeleven ... good positive posts on the current realities! It's about the bigger picture (and, yes, I know, it could get worse, before it improves but ...). 1882 ... my bad (actually too lazy to check it!, thanks!
Geofspurs
It is a fact that we haven't even got a point when the opposition has scored first this season. We are not good at chasing it.
CoysRus
Topho - When nothing is on you pass the ball backwards, sideways to retain possession. From the kick off City players put us under pressure which in turn made Kaboul do the right thing and pass it back to the keeper, he scuffed his clearance to cause the goal. Would you rather Soldado punt the kick off into the corner and go for touch? Your knowledge of football is limited pal, you obviously are an egg chaser at heart!
yiddyboy
jacobslad - you think he should get 5 more games? Crikey, brave. Fingers crossed we get Andre Marriner for those 5
mattspurs1982
James I wasnt talking with you and like you its up to you who you read and dont, if you have a continued problem with me (clearly) don't ever read anything I post. I am trying to avoid getting entrenched in another long debate ref Townsend and doing it politely. I agree with most stuff that Shed has posted and have done for a couple of years. I cant help you with the problem your have with me apart from the above suggestion. It would be good for both of us and the board if you did just ignore me. TOPHO.
tophobunty1882
2ndeleven / Geofspurs - yo're both wearing rose tinted specs. "We lost to city away - hey ho". Its ot just the city result tho! "Maybe this lost will be the catalyst". What like West Ham? Like Newcaslte? Like Man City? How many more? Dreaming of beating Man United when we labour past Hull (twice) to be X points off X position... hmmmm
mattspurs1982
Yiddy, why did we go backwards from the start is the point, why? Why not simply punt it into there corner and move forward on mass to defend high up the pitch and put them under pressure at their end where they are less likely to score. Anything not better with that rather simple approach. I would bet your house on the fact that we would never concede in 14 seconds if we did that.
tophobunty1882
Cider, agree wholeheartedly. With our back 4 nestling on the halfway line and the other 6 of our players sitting between there and the opposition box we are totally congested so all we can do is pass around the second third of the pitch. No movement, no breaks, no chance. It was painful watching the odd hoof from Dawson or lloris only to find city players and they hit us just about every time. I feel that even if we held the structure that the pre match team sheets on sky put up we would have a better chance, but we just sit around the middle, holding til we lose the ball and then chase back forlornly. I do think chiriches could do a job for us there, if we keep this system.
Dublin Hotspur
Cider, i wrote a piece on here a week or so ago, cant remember which thread, was a copy of a piece i wrote on here a year ago. Inverted wingers clearly can work, but they aint for us....and i struggle with the theory of why you would want a less qualified player further forward than a more qualified player to deliver those killer crosses. I cant see why you could want Lennon and Townsend making those last ditch tackles way back there given the choice over a defender making them, so why do we (AVB) and other managers think this is such a good idea up top? I am lost on this to a large degree. Its interesting that you feel the need as many others do to say things like "still finding our feet in the prem" ( i understand why you do though) to my knowledge we have never been out of the prem since it was introduced....on the other hand we have a manager who VERY CLEARLY is still trying to find his feet in the prem, at our expense sadly. Abramovich was ruthless, as hard as it is, if it was my call I would be just that right ruthless now. Tough call though.
tophobunty1882
Topho - You're correct for once, if we'd have punted up field instead of going back to Lloris we wouldn't have conceded after 13 seconds. However, that goes against the way AVB wants the team to play. That is a very English way of playing the game. I watch lots of football, primarily the Premier league and I've never understood why fans clap a player who just punts it up the other end of the field instead of retaining possession. If Kaboul knew Lloris was going to make a pigs ear out of the back pass then he wouldn't have pass it to him, you and hindsight are great pals right?
yiddyboy
mattspurs ... none of those quotes belonged to me, so I'm assuming you are quoting yourself from another thread, which is fine. Personally (and this is just my opinion and need not adversely affect your life), I am willing to give AVB this season before I go into free-fall. Sorry, but, unsurprisingly, there are many different and conflicting opinions on the subject of football. You gotta luv it!
Geofspurs
Punt it forward like rugby tactics great. If we had inverted wingers and a forward 6ft plus worth a go I guess lol. COYS!
James1
yidy - thats exactly where we're going wrong though. Not saying punt it forward all the time, but you dont in games by having the most possesion. 60% possession -v- city, 6-0.....
mattspurs1982
mattspurs....I try and take each game as it comes. Lets say "up to 5 games". If we lose Utd, Fulham, Sunderland making 5 straight defeats then its probably curtains. And its not what I want or you want, we can have opinions. I don't think it'll be the fans or the board. It will be the players. They mostly play for top international coaches, and have experienced other top club coaches. They will know whats right or wrong. If they jump ship, then AVB will go.
jacobslad
C'mon topho...you understand the finding their feet point. Many players from abroad have commented on how fast and physical the prem is and how it toook them a while to adapt to these elements. Like you say, you understand this, then why is it not valid for our new signings. I'm not making excuses, i think AVB has been found out, i suggested earlier in the season that we were merely getting away with it, i recall posting the word "luck" plenty told me you make your own luck, maybe, but it certainly deserted us of late, so what is the alternative. I'd suggest AVB has to rethink tactics, and i agrre totally about the inverted winger thing not suitable for the way we set up. that would at least be a start, but i just don't know whether the man has it in his make up to make drastic changes. Annoying thing being, i don't think too much needed changing when he arrived. We just needed to toughen up a bit more, see games out. It's kind of looking like we're heading backwards, hope not, i've got little side bets laid out everywhere.
Cider spurs
Yiddy, its an improvement on what we did on Sunday, simply. The way AVB wants us to play, as you say, whatever that is, isnt working clearly. If you dont want to punt it 50 yards why pick Dawson every week? Chiriches wont do that, neither would Kaboul and neither would Verts. We are retaining possession and had more yesterday but we are not winning, creating chances or scoring goals, it aint working. It's nothing to do with hindsight, its about the way we have been playing for a long time, its in front of anyone who watched a lot or Spurs in the prem, it's as much about mentality and we dont have much of that right at the moment. It's about tactics, it's about buying the right players to move us forward, its about employing the right manager to move us forward. Its about so many things and from where I am NOTHING to do with hindsight. Read some posts in the August window and see how foresight works best.
tophobunty1882
Bernio.. very good posts there...
Block D Spurs
We have the right players to play fast attacking football, I don't think the players we did not buy that we were linked with would have made a difference to our play. The tactics are down to AVB, if it is not working then they need to be changed. The players are there to take us to the next level of actually scoring in games, we will see it, who knows.
Kong
Anyway, it's not all bad ... the cricket went well!
Geofspurs
Cider, we can all give time but its just the flavour of the week/month excuse at the moment. It doesnt need to be as hard or as bad as it is at the moment, but it is. Why? AVB was found out at Chelsea and is repeating all the same stuff now. I dont see us heading forwards at the moment do you? He has his spade out mate and he is digging like feck.........can he throw his spade away and stop digging? I am not sure he is capable...i would love it absolutely if he was, it would be great for Spurs.
tophobunty1882
Kong which players in particular are geared up for fast attacking football, you might want to use Man City as a bench mark players wise as they are set up and do play fast attcacking football. Most of the change of pace forward to back comes from the centre in all teams capable of that, so which players?
tophobunty1882
Geofspurs with you on that. Give AVB at least till the end season and see where we are. Personally I'd give him another but the moment he loses the dressing room is the monent he should go. That is what happened at Chelsea. Key figures at Chelsea disliked his ideas and gave Abromovich the opportunity to sack him. He needs to turn it around and get the fans on his side. He knows he is in a very difficult position but I hope he can turn it around. I don't want another manager and another year of waiting for the team to bed in. COYS!
James1
Geofspurs please don't mention the ashes or Rugby League :( COYS!
James1
Topho - We have players that can play at a fast tempo from the back including Kaboul and Walker, Townsend and Lennon if played as real wingers can do damage. Lamela although not quick looks like he can play the clever balls and Eriksen with time can do the same. Dembele if played further up can be very good. Like I said the team is there to be played properly.
Kong
Kong, can you write to AVB and explain your theory? because we thinks it will stem from Sandro/Paulinho/Holtby played together.....he tried that again yesterday, not sure how well it went for him second time around, or is it third? Yes to Dembele further forward, just like he was at Fulham when he was a danger to the oppo....
tophobunty1882
James ... sorry about that! You brought up the most important point ... if AVB does lose the dressing-room then it's all over for him no matter what else happens. Looking at some of the players faces during the game, I wonder if it's already started to happen? They need a win on Thursday ... any kind of win is a confidence booster at the moment. In two years time AVBs days might seem like ashes blowing in the wind (Oops, sorry again!). Night, mate!
Geofspurs
Topho, I have written to AVB but I don't think he has taken on board my suggestions. Paulinho can be very good but we have not seen that lately, I would replace him with Dembele and Holtby with Lamela going central giving townsend a chance on the left. Let Lennon and Townsend run the wings, Lamela linking with Soldado or Adebayor.
Kong
Topho - I'm not disagreeing with you, but clearly the way AVB wants us to play and the way we are actually playing are probably miles apart. I don't think AVB wants us to have the lions share of possession to not create chances. I think he's trying to install a mentality which will unfortunately take time to bed in. Spain changed their whole philosophy of how to play and that took years until the fruit began to ripen. We are constantly changing the goalposts, changing managers and not creating a basis to work from. AVB needs to follow his instincts rather than be molded by the media, fans or whoever. When he joined he thought Dawson was surplus to requirements, some went mad but he was proven correct in my book. Why he is still playing him, only he knows. Townsend is another, had a half decent (no more) period at relegated QPR, play a couple of times for Spurs and did well for England. Media go banana's and he's in, AVB wanted to loan him out I believe, yet again his instinct was right. Players like Ade and BAE are threats to AVB, they are the senior players of the squad that could disrupt AVB's "project". That is my opinion to why one has been frozen out (no takers in the Summer) and the other is in the Championship. The problem, and a big problem it is, is AVB has probably got to go back to Ade and get him on-board as Soldado isn't doing the lone striker role, Defoe can't and Kane is far too risky.
yiddyboy
James1 - "the moment he loses the dressing room is the monent he should go"..... He's lost it. Dembele, Lamela, Verts, Ade all unhappy about positions, playing time etc and the players look lost after West Ham, Newscastle and Man City. He's lost them
mattspurs1982
Hahahahahaha very good Geofspurs :) I agree we need a win on Thursday and we need to give a very good performance against Utd. It's the least they can do. Dembele and Ade looked a handful up front. I hope they both play from the start. Catch you later mate. COYS!
James1
topho...As i recall, you, i and big C all stated back in the window that Bale was the force that led us primarily to our league finishing position last season. We saw the failings at times, but the Bale wonder strikes somewhat papered over the shortcomings. My only reasons for not continuing the questioning of lack of quality displayed early doors this season, was the signing of the 7 players. I felt i had to afford some adjustment time. I believe i will still afford time for the sake of the players, but i thought AVB would now have implemented tactics into the side that would have resulted in us at least looking more like an attacking force. We may not have all the players up to speed, that i can allow for a while, but let's have the next best suitable alternative until they are, and most certainly playing in a set up looking more capable of being a threat. That comes down to AVB and his tactics, and i can remember the shortcomings last season, so it does not mean he has not been afforded time to change the negatives, he just has not had the players he wishees to play in his all too often wrong set up.
Cider spurs
topho...As of late no, i don't see us moving forward. Stagnation prior to regression unless he can change. Some may argue why should he?. I'd suggest why won't he?.
Cider spurs
Cider, interesting point about the full-backs. Maybe we should revert to our last really successful formation of 2-3-2-3 or 3-2-2-3 most often. In that formation the full-backs stayed back often with the CB (or centre-half as he was known then) between them, with 2 defensive MF's (or Wing-halves) and 2 attacking MF's (inside forwards) and 2 wingers plus a CF. I think we could populate that formation very well with the current squad. It never was a rigid set-up but more about the roles that players were expected to perform and allowed morphing from a back 5 to a MF 4 to a front 5 as needed, but always about going forward and not sideways. could be Walker,Rose; Capoue,Vert,Sandro; Paulinho,Lamela; Lennon, Ade, Townsend. Not holding my breath though.
Harry-Kari
Harry...Whatever way we look at it, at present we are getting little coming into the box from Left, and more of a threat from the Right, but still nothing amazing in the balls in department. It's as if AVB has taken all that was right with the club and done awy with it. Yes i admire the fact the he has instilled a robustness in the team, how many times have we engineered one vs one on the wings for the pace to exploit?. What crosses?, where's the players in the box?. This does not need to be hard, we have the right players for the job, we just need to work to our strengths. it may just be that AVB is spot on with his tactics and that the players are struggling to adhere to them, if this is the case then why sign the players and or why not change to a system that will best utilise their talents. i've said all along inverted wingers need to be in the mold of players like Rooney, Mata, Robben. All able to score on a regular basis and able to assist the striker with chances. Do we possess these players?. It's so hard to tell because we have not witnessed the ones i believe were signed for this purpose all that often. Engineer some room to play the standard of football we can and are renowned for. fast counter attacking football, we have the passers, we have the power, we have the pace. Why the problems?.
Cider spurs
I wish AVB would adopt the Jonathon Trott approach. If you don't like it up you, pack up and go home, then we could move on.
Frank
Hoddle seems to think we don't have the creativity in midfield. Maybe Pirlo is the man after all. Maybe a tad harsh from God but maybe the introduction of Capoue may be the man to spark things off? And we need Paulinho moved up another 10 yards upfield. He seems pedestrian in CM. COYS!
James1
James1- no to pirlo from me, yes to your changes, I would have liked to have seen Capoue on the pitch yesterday let alone not even on the bench...and if AVB doesn't shape up I wouldn't be adverse to seeing Hoddle back!
shedboy2
Kong, that would be more fluid and one would think more creative. you would think Sandro as one defensive midfielder in front of a very decent back 4 would be good enough defensively...or hope at least..........Yiddy, why do you think they are miles apart? he bought the players, picks the team and lasy down the tactics...are you suggesting in all games all 11 simply dont understand what he wants? Agree ref Dawson and dont agree ref Townsend. You might be right ref Ade and BAE, he sure is making a hash of managing those two for the good of THFC.......Cider all fair points, but we are not improving are we/ its actually getting worse and not better, the Gel is working in reverse.
tophobunty1882
You're right shedboy2. Pirlo is not the answer but Capoue might be. We haven't seen enough of him but I want him to play against Utd. Capoue as DM, Chadli, Dembele and Lamela/Townsend with Ade behind Soldado. COYS!
James1
GUTLESS, TOOTHLESS & SPINELESS PERFORMANCE! What a shower of totally useless player's to pull on the Spurs shirt. Even the normally reliable players like Dawson & Vertonghen looked way below there best. Have to blame the coach for niave tactics. In the previous home game City blew away Norwich. You would have to be a complete fool to go there with such an open team at the moment. Should have stiffened the midfield with Capoue joiming Sandro & Paulino and playing a 4-3-2-1 system. I give AVB till end of season barring any further major catas(trophys). Ha Ha can't see us winning anything for years haven't got the bottle.
yid61
James1 - I like the look of your proposed 4-4-2. I assume add would be the one holding up the play with RS9 as an out and out poacher running past him
mattspurs1982
Frank...very cheap comment re AVB and Trott. Most unbecoming of someone of your generation. And I don't think AVB does stress.
jacobslad
I respect anyone with intelligence, but most players aren't, even if they're gifted footballers. AVB had Lewis Holtby on the touchline for about a minute with hand gestures and instructions. Nothing changed, which indicates to me that Holtby jogged away from that conversation thinking "okay, what did he say again?" Seems that too many instructions overload a team into blowing a collective fuse. It looks like every single player in the team, aside from Townsend, seem so afraid of making a mistake, they just lay it off to the next player. Nobody seems willing to risk anything, hence this farce where we end up playing the ball sideways and backwards.
Bernio Villas-Spuras
Its not making a mistake that bothers them its losing possession. You could argue they are the same thing but either way it completely stifles the creativity. Whatever happened to "to dare is to do". There is precious little evidence of it at the moment. I too love Dawson as he wears the shirt with guts and determination but he is not and never will be a top six side centerback. He is too slow and AVB knows it yet plays a high line because he has "Lloris the sweeper". That only works if the opposition are not lightning quick and the gap is not too big. Against city (only when their tails were up) it was. Until the 2nd bad mistake by Lloris they looked weak at the back and other teams are going to exploit that, indeed it appears to happen quite often when they are away from home and less confident. The bottom line is AVB and the team need to sort it out. I believe they will have until Christmas or AVB will go.
philbill
Holtby's lack of defensive awareness for Man city's 2nd goal was ridiculous. He really shoulnt need a manager to tell him to follow Augero into the box when Dawson was out of position. He didnt even make the effort, just stood and watched. Surprising for a guy who is always lively and does work hard.
Guyver
jacobsland, i don't buy the "stress related illness bit", as an ex fast bowler myself, you get to see the reaction as Trott displayed against Mitchell Johnson, for "stress related illness" read "bottles gone".
Frank
Matspurs 1982 you've got it mate :) COYS!
James1
 

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