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Winning Ugly

We've struggled all season, criticism from just about every quarter, football unconvincing and goals almost non existent.

Yet we are currently 3 points off second place in the league despite a goal difference of -1 and have won our Europa group with a game to spare. What's going on? It seems to me this squad can do something that is alien to the Spurs psyche, they can win ugly.

Its something that Ferguson and before him Bob Paisley understood, you try to win well but its vital you keep winning even when you are playing badly. Its something that our club never seems to have got, neither the players nor the supporters.

You hope the team will improve, that we'll play better football as the season goes on. There is always the possibility of another striker in the January window. But none of this will matter unless we are still in the mix, which currently we still are. Its the question mark over some other clubs. Man City have the best squad in the league but once they go away from home not only do they fail to perform at the same level they can't grind out narrow wins.

Arsenal are on fire, if they keep playing at that level they will win the league. But history suggests at some point in the season everyone hits problems, can they still pinch the points when the football isn't flowing? With Liverpool its down to one man, what happens if Suarez has a dry spell or an injury?

Its not pretty to watch but what our players are doing is what previous Spurs teams have been unable to do and that does give me hope.

Written by jod




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The journalist

Writer: jod Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Monday December 9 2013

Time: 9:17AM

Your Comments

morning all
longtimespur
Who're you calling 'ugly'? lol Very true. I can't remember being able to win games the way we are at the moment. We're like that well known story, 'The Ugly Cockereling'. But all the signs suggest we are not far from becoming beautiful!
Geofspurs
I didn't think it was ugly in the second half yesterday or 1 half against Chelsea, or Newcastle, or Everton. Yes there has been some dire and laborious football a lot of the time but I think that's just AVB's way of tiring the opposition. Seems to work more often then not.
longtimespur
Afternoon, Longtime!
Geofspurs
The key is consistency. And that comes from implementing and sticking with a system everyone buys into. And having a full squad of motivated players who can step in so the team structure is not affected by injuries suspensions etc. The longer the season goes on the better we will get (in terms of integrating all the new players) and the depth of our squad will start to tell. Will be interesting to see how liverpool cope with a few injuries.
StillRickyVilla
Liverpool will NOT finish above Spurs, due to being a better side on paper. If Spurs continue to play narrow and over cautious, they may end up contributing to their own downfall.
Hotspur 1882
Morning Geoffspur haven't seen any reports yet so how's Ashes doing any hope of rain. lol.
longtimespur
Geoffspur .... just looked it up, not great reading! 2-0 and no balls, that's the England team by the way! Cook has his work cut out to get anything from this Ashes series and we come home to start all over again. Be a great summer, that and the World cup. As well as Spurs doing the treble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COYS
longtimespur
longtime ... 2-0 (Ashes). Don't think you'll have much chance at the WACA, starting Friday, so could be 3-0! What do you think about the Liverpool game?
Geofspurs
Nice post SRV, however not many understand it.
Mix26
With all the changes it doesn't matter how we win, more than happy with ugliness. That said we can't be losing ugly and we have to beat some of the better teams as well, not just the give-me games.
T.H.F.Chris
Away from home, we've done what we've needed to do, Sunderland and Fulham could have been a problem no matter which team played them as Chelsea nearly found out, never had a problem with our away performances even though the capitulation suffered at City was a complete embarrassment. Our home performance is the biggest concern, I mean whats the difference between winning ugly and struggling? BUT while we are in touch of the pack, what can you say?
coys1717
Not so much winning ugly as winning lucky. However the old Arnold Palmer quote of "the more I practise the luckier I get" applies. The footballing gods were obviously embarrassed by the lack of penalty decisions given to us last year and are making up for it this year. Wasn't it against Sunderland last year that Bale got booked for diving when brought down in the box?
Love totty
longtime, so not ugly in 4 out of 15 game.....lets win ugly in the next two games and qausimodo will be worthy of a shagg..winning ugly against bottom 3 = problem somewhere. SRV a good post but missed one hugely IMPORTANT point..."implement a system WHICH WORKS.
tophobunty1882
This one of the few games I have enjoyed watching so far this season. No boring slow predictable build up play thankfully. This game we were a little more direct
Mickeys1969
There are signs of things coming together. But for Defoe's wayward finishing we could, in fact should have thrashed Sunderland. It's a shame we weren't creating these chances before Soldado lost his mojo. Rose will be back soon giving us much needed width on the left. Cover for both full backs is top priority for the transfer window. For a squad with lots of strength in depth we've suffered badly from Rose's injury.
Kes80
AVB's approach is to stifle the life out of the space, the oppo and the game and then try to win what's left. Sort of a 10 year grand master plan for half empty stadiums, The Italian approach, they succeeded. I hope we dont in that way. Lots of possession is great, but LORDY me when you have condensed the pitch down to half length and half width it is so difficult to find the space to create. Ugly it sure is, walk past it in the street? Sure would. Be happy if it gets you 4th? Yes. Unhappy if it gets you 5th? Yes. Winning is 4th minimum, 5th or lower is ugly.
tophobunty1882
Winning ugly is relative to the fact that you sometimes play well. We are still not getting half of what we can from this squad, YET as you mentioned, we are more or less in reach of where we need to be - points-wise. It is mind boggling that Liverpool wipe away all that come their way, and we lose to West Ham & newcastle at home, get smacked up at Citeh, yet are only just 3 pts away from Liverpool in second place! Huh..? The bottom line is all season: a) you cannot rely on winning ugly. b) you cannot rely on scoring less than a goal a game. c) you cannot rely on Siggy & Paulinho to get most of our open play goals. d) we cannot rely on dodgy pens, own goals, and cheeky free kick goals UNDER the wall. e) we cannot rely on our centre half and holding midfielders to score screamers from outside the box.... f) we cannot rely on possession stats & shots on target stats when they do not lead to goals... g) we cannot rely on Vertonghen / Naughton at LB. h) we cannot rely on blaming the crowd for lack of support when they blame the team for lack of excitement....
TonyRich
Kes80 - whilst Defoe's finishing was off, especially that one he dragged wide, I will commend him for making the runs and space to get there in the first place. I hope Soldado is studying. Mind you, I do feel that the main reason that he had those chances was because the whole attack played better. It was snappier, and more varied.
TonyRich
When even the opposing manager critises his team's performance you know that it didn't need to be ugly to win, and to be fair, second half was not too shabby in the build-up. But the home draw against United gave me more pleasure and hope for the future than these two away wins which though we deserved to win were fortunate results.
Love totty
Our system is certainly working in the away games. Sunderland the latest victims who could not get enough possession to put sustained pressure on us. Just need to devise a formula that will win home games.
cynicspur
Topho this system is the one employed by most teams now and is the system which yielded our most PL points ever and a manager with the highest win ratio ever. I find it funny that some are never happy. TonyRIch, dont you think AVB is aware we need to score more goals? Im sure we are working on it night and day. There are signs that the attacking combinations are coming together. It will take time weve got a lot of young attacking talent all finding their feet at the same time. As for the supporters everyone KNOWS that AVB was absolutely right about the fans - the home support since AVB took over has at times been embarrassing.
StillRickyVilla
Kes Soldado never had his Mojo and give Defoe some credit for his movement to find space where Soldado has not, two of his chances where very sharp chances and a bit unlucky. Seems to me he gets a very rough deal in this place when compared to the slack Soldado is cut, esp when Soldado has been nothing short of ffffffffffffffffing useless. I am far from Defoe's greatest fan as many on here will know, but for me he is offering MUCH more than Soldado is currently, neither ideal of course.
tophobunty1882
SRV take Bale out of that system last season and we might have had our lowest total points ever. If you think its the right system and its working for you simply we are using different criteria for acceptance of "working". I am not saying it can not work, simply I am sayng it is not working for the criteria I base "working" on.
tophobunty1882
cynicspur - well, LAST season I would agree that our system was working away from home - as we were beating decent teams away. This season, we have merely beaten the bottom 3, Cardiff (5th from bottom), and Swansea (bottom half...just) away from home. All but Swansea have scored even less goals than us. All were narrow victories, because we do not score enough. I agree that the home games are the main concern.
TonyRich
SRV - then AVB shouldn't make statements that imply that he is happy with the performances, number of goals etc... He sounds content, barring the 2 times that we got smacked up. At the end of the day, AVB is not making decisive changes to improve performances. If we continue to grind, then we may just about finish fifth again - even with a record points total...again. But that would be due to a faltering Man U, and liverpool being so heavily reliant on one or two players for goals.
TonyRich
SRV - I DO agree that the booing from last season was diabolical. However, this season, the support is much better compared to that. The crowd just need their excitement level raised. Even if it is a player turning to the crowd and waving his arms to get a response. Or a player pumping his fist at a great save or last ditch tackle. A bit more urgency. Some first time passes, and one-twos are simple ways for varying play, and getting us fired up as we move up the field quicker.
TonyRich
TonyRich the sriker situation does not get solved from one transfer window to the next.Defoe is still the main man. We needed two strikers and got one Soldado who is not what we required. We should have bought Wilfred Bony and paid what Villa wanted for Benteke, both have physical presence and can play with their back to goal.
cynicspur
how on earth did Holtby get 20% in the poll with Dembele getting 6%....lots of huffers and puffers in here I think. corrrrrr that's ugly.
tophobunty1882
Topho I dont care what the actual system is as long as it gets results (it clearly does) and the manager and players have confidence in it (they clearly do). As for the fans well you, I and any so-called pundits (mostly failed managers) are pretty clueless. I look for team spirit and a belief in what we are trying to do rather than trying to 2nd guess a manager who has complete knowledge of every situation. Tony RIch AVBs media answers are generally pretty bland (unless rightly defending himself from the odd idiot!). Hes always defending the club, players and himself in public. Hes not going to come out in the press and say "we need more goals from Lamela" for instance. Creates unwanted headlines.
StillRickyVilla
cynicspur - how is Defoe the main man? He hasn't scored in his last 12 league starts - including 3 this season! (The woodwork doesn't count) Defoe isn't the one we want either, as his league goal rate is distinctly average, but great for cups. Ironically, Ade has the best Spurs league goal rate of the lot. Even if you count the end of last season. 3 goals in his last 6 league apps. Why don't we utilise him? If there is a personal issue, then sort it out. It cannot be worse than what Tevez did to Citeh, and he came back and played to a high level.
TonyRich
TonyRich ... despite all your. 'we cannots' we are only 1 game away from second! So, maybe 'we can'?! LT ... the second half was not at all 'shabby'. I watched it again today and it was bloody brilliant. Defoe was making runs he has not done for ages and the truth is, he was unlucky. We finally opened a team up in the final third on several occasions. Again, we often did everything right but shots were desperately blocked or the woodwork stopped us. This will change if we keep creating these sort of chances.
Geofspurs
...sorry, Ade: 3 goals in his last 6 league STARTS
TonyRich
Geofspurs - mate, I said that BEFORE the list of cannots... Didn't you read that?
TonyRich
Geoff - you've misread my post again! I sais not too shabby ie quite good. Stay out of the sun mate. :)
Love totty
Geof but 4 others teams need to lose and we need to beat Liverpool about 11 nil....I still prefer to live in the real world.
tophobunty1882
TonyRich, Ade is injured ...again
ItalianYiddo
...anyway. I still feel that my list of "cannots" still apply, because we are 3 points from 2nd only AFTER back to back wins against 2 teams in the bottom 3 who cannot win for toffee. If we are 3 points from 2nd after back to back games against teams in the top 7, then I would believe that there is enough substance behind our performance. LAST season, we beat Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal and Citeh - amongst others. This season, we haven't beaten anyone above 10th yet, having played everyone barring Liverpool, Southampton. Perhaps Liverpool game is the turning point? Make me BELIEVE guys!!!!
TonyRich
TonyRich I am not saying Defoe is the main man in the sense that I endorse him. When Ramos sold him he should have stayed sold.Neither Defoe, Ade, or Soldado ( at the moment ) are up to the job on a week in week out basis. That is the problem that never gets resolved.
cynicspur
TonyRich the performances and spirit against all the top teams (bar City obviously) has been great. All could have gone our way especially the chelsea and united games. This is football. You simply cant win every game. Especially when the level of competition is so high. We are doing well. The new players are settling. We have great chances in Europe and in the League Cup. Lets enjoy it and get behind the lads.
StillRickyVilla
Ex player to win more would be berbatrat in January. Motd last night he was awesome playing for a move from fulham.if we got him playing like that till the end of season CL would be nailed on.not much respect for the man but what a player.coys
bazdog
May be as pele10 says, it's the curse of the ENIC!. Defoe has worked under three managers at Spurs and he is still the same and our goal threat from strikers is unresolved 3 managers on. Doesn't make sense! Are our goal posts too fat?!!
Critical_Spur
TonyRich - Your comments make my point about Spurs fans not getting it for me. Teams that win league titles just keep grinding out results regardless of form. We have always focused on the negatives, if we can't win well its not worth winning at all - that's why we haven't won a league title in over 50 years.
jod
Jod, i think Tony is probably saying he wants to win more and that is why we have not won much for a very long time. I am with him on this, doesnt matter how it just matters that you win more. I guess we would all like to enjoy what we see, that's a big bonus.
tophobunty1882
Sorry to go off subject but I'm staggered at what I'm reading about a breakdown in the relationship between Levy and AVB. I think Goal.com are a reliable source as well i.e. not Daily Mail anti AVB agendas. If Levy has allowed this to happen already then I really question whether Levy should continue. As things stand managers such as Harry and AVB are as good as we're likely to get. Any replacement would be at a similar level and would no doubt have ups and downs as well. The team spirit looks fantastic to me. With time I'm sure tactics, performance and results will improve. I just hope this isn't true.
Archibald Leitch
Saying that though Jod, there's no evidence to suggest if we play 'Ugly football' all season we will win the title. Also the past 50 years or in my case 30years we have never had a team of squad good enough to win the title, regardless of the football played.

TR some good posts!!!
Ossie
Archibald....so its 1-3 against on the important factors. Maybe there's a clue there. Not sure if this falling out is true or not, but you dont pain a good picture.
tophobunty1882
Ossie - Don't entirely agree, I think the 86/87 side (when Clive Allen broke the scoring record) had the ability, we were leading the league for a while. But in the end our mental frailty, combined with an Everton will to win that was really impressive, meant the title ended up in Liverpool. My point was not that winning ugly was enough to win the league, though it may be enough for a champions league place. My point was that you can't win the league without the ability to win ugly, which is something our fans seem to struggle to accept.
jod
TonyRich / tophobunty - re Defoe, yes he made good intelligent runs and that should be commended. Another day he might have had a hat-trick but we know all about Defoe. He has hot spells and cold spells with his finishing. My point about Soldado is back at the start of the season he was making good runs but a combination of slow build up play and a lack of willingness from anyone to risk a defence splitting pass left him constantly frustrated. You could see it as time and time again he looked up to say 'Why didn't you pass it to me?' Obviously after a while the motivation to make the runs goes and his form in front of goal from Valencia is now a distant memory. If we continue to improve the tempo and adventure of our play then I reckon he will start to score.
Kes80
Well said Ossie - let's not make a virtue of playing ugly football ffs. I can't think of any team other than Chelski who won anything that way. Even "Dirty Leeds" had some great players playing great football.
Love totty
Call me old fashioned, but in my book, no win is ugly. A win is a win, there is still only 3 points to be gained, no matter how you play. I've never looked at the 3 extra points in the league table & thought to myself, "damn that's ugly". COYS

Jod, obviously i get your point ;-). ps - "Criticism from just about every corner"? There's been more than just a couple on here who have withheld any criticism whatsoever, mainly due to them feeling they have an understanding of the much discussed changes within our squad.
coopsieyid
Also one positive from the last week is we actually look to try and produce quick counter attacks on occassion. I'd still like to see more of it but it's something I don't remember seeing at all in our first 10 league games.
Kes80
Jod - I know what you mean about having the grit to win when things aren't clicking. I just hate the term winning ugly. Winning is never ugly but style can be.
Love totty
SRV - Mate, if you take Bale's goals out of last season, we'd probably have our lowest popints total ever. Then again, take Ronaldo's goals out of Real Madrids performances, Messi's goals out of Barcelona's performances, RVP's goals out of Man United's performances etc etc etc, I'm sure their points totals would also be massively lower than what they ended up on. Anyone would think it's a new thing for any particular team to have a talisman!!
coopsieyid
How was Defoe unlucky? 4 nailed on chances and two more brilliant through balls that he didn't realize were coming (obvious to anyone watching). That's six chances created for him in one game and he got pretty much the same as he has the past 25 appearances. Hands on his head wondering where it all went wrong. How much did he create for others? At least Soldado has both in his game. Defoe is all him or nothing. He did nothing else. We have seen this same show time and again. Now, give Soldado those six chances and I'll bet there would have been a few goals and perhaps some assists. Soldado has set up others more than he has been set up. Therein lies the problem. Soldado is a far better striker than Defoe and he can take a penalty too. COYS
peterballb
Kes, not convinced by Soldado in this league and in this team. I hope you gut feel is a good judgement of things to come from him though, we really need him to be what many on here say he is or will be........Jod, I am pretty sure every poster on here understand to be champions you need to win often when not playing at your best, that's common knowledge surely? I agree with that that it would be great for us to do that more. I think many are simply craving winning non ugly, because take Bale out of last season and we have ug pug bug since AVB arrived.
tophobunty1882
Topho, I'm far from suggesting AVB is perfect. But reading the goal.com article (posted on Spurs Media Watch today) it suggests that Levy would have been happy to see AVB go to PSG during the close season. If AVB is that bad, then it's a failure of recruitment and if he 's not that bad then it's a failure to support the manager. Hopefully I'm wrong about the reliability of goal.com but if not it suggests a deep instability in the club.
Archibald Leitch
Tony ... Sorry about that! My bad. Only excuse is trying to rush through the posts ... not a good idea for comprehension! At least .. we were thinking the same. lol
Geofspurs
peter, biased view again mate. I nailed on chance and two other VERY sharp chances, the second wood work hit was a brilliant effort and very unlucky. Soldado had NOT been a far better striker for us than Defoe this season. I am a long way from Defoe's biggest fan, but you simply have no balance in your views over him.
tophobunty1882
Off topic... Berbatov.? Acrimonious parting of ways last time but wouldn't he fit right in with AVB's system. His flicks and tricks in the attacking half is just what we need. Hmm ??
Madaboutspurs
Archibald, agree 100% with what you just said about the recruitment if that rumour is true, very fair point.
tophobunty1882
Archibal Leitch - I think a bit of 'common sense thinking' is required by you, in this instance? That's not a 'put-down', by the way. Think about it for a second. IF Levy would've been happy to see AVB go to PSG in the closed season, do you REALLY think he'd have handed over almost every penny gained from every player sold, to a manager he'd have happily seen leave? Come on, Archibald, not in a million years ;-)
coopsieyid
Madabout - Precisely.
coopsieyid
madabout, Berba yes x 1 heartbeat, great asset to any prem team/squad, drips quality still and makes things happen all around him. Plus one QUALITY other, with Ade going if he really doesnt want to play for us or if AVB defo doesnt want him to play for us. Question is a non playing Ade or a playing Berba? nil brainer. Doesnt solve the long term issue but it solves the Ade not playing issue. Berba still probably technically the most talented player in the prem.
tophobunty1882
LT ''' I was agreeing with you and expanding it ... not having a go at you. topho ... we all live in the real world, we just interpret it differently!
Geofspurs
very true Geof
tophobunty1882
tophobunty, Berbatov being technically the most talented player in our league is a big call but I saw his class and confidence against us last week and I would say he is right up there. Also with him, despite being a striker, speed is not essential in how he operates so he may be at the top of his game for while yet.
Madaboutspurs
coopsie, glad you agree too. Was thinking I may cop some stick for daring to suggest him, after how he sulked his way out last time. Health's good now I hope. Off the anticoagulants yet?
Madaboutspurs
Coopsie - very good point. I'm probably overreacting a bit (hence one of my rare comments). The article was a bit of a slap in the face after a few good results. I'm one of those who still believes AVB will come good & generally I'm very positive about Levy. Just hope Levy gets the balance right on the football side.
Archibald Leitch
"REAL WORLD"....It's all Alien to me.
Cider spurs
agree 100% madabout, he is so good and bringing others into the game and making space for others, he is also a very good proven scorer of all types of goals in the prem, tap ins, world class goals, goals he made from nothing, headers and soldado penalties. He is NOT the solution for this very long running problem but he could really help us from Jan to season's close. Not sure we would be the only taker up the top end.
tophobunty1882
Berba still has one of the best first touches i have ever witnessed, regardless of whether the ball has travelled 50+ yards, one touch, he's controlled it. Now think about Ade.......? Great footballer, when up for it, i rest my case.
Cider spurs
Cider, what is your case in this case?
tophobunty1882
OFF TOPIC, but Dawson is ONCE AGAIN giving signs of just how 'together' this squad is, via his Soccer AM interview ;-)...

Here at Soccer AM we all have our perceptions who's the coolest, who has the best taste in music and who's the funniest in the dressing room.

But what about the boys from the White Hart Lane?

MOST SKILLFUL: We have some really tricky players. Christian Eriksen can pick the ball and go past someone. So can Dembele, and Ade [Adebayor] has got great feet so we have one or two. To name one, I am struggling.

QUICKEST: We have some rapid players; Kyle Walker and Aaron Lennon. I would like to see a race between them. Over 10 yards Lenny, over 50 yards Walks. But last time on this Walks said that I was the slowest.

FUTURE MANAGER: Definitely Brad Friedel. He is older than the manager [Andre Villas-Boas]. He just loves chatting and talking about football. He is definitely a future manager.

BEST MATE AT THE CLUB: All of them. They are a great group of boys. For me to be captain of a foobtall club with a group of boys like we have is a massive honour.

HARDMAN: Only one man, Sandro. He is crazy. I'm sure every answer after this will be Sandro because he is a legend.

BIGGEST JOKER: You think I am going to say Sandro again but I am gonig to give it to Kyle Walker. After seeing the Halloween footage that was brilliant. I'm so glad they did not get me.

BEST DANCER: Probably one or two fancy themselves as the best dancer and I am going to go with Emmanuel Adebayor. He can pull some moves.

AND WHO'S THE LONGEST IN THE SHOWER: There are some big boys. Aaron Lennon...........

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/15122/9061619/michael-dawson-gives-lowdown-on-his-tottenham-team-mates-for-soccer-am

Now, that last one. Surely it's got to be relative? It's only 3 inches, but so are his legs ;-).. Seriously, though, no winder he can turn on a sixpence when he's got 3 legs. We (those at matches) should call him "the stool", lol.
coopsieyid
Yes Cider. Saw him pull a cross field pass down effortlessly against us the other day. Top 4 looks more in the bag if we get someone like him. It's a real scramble for those 4 spots this year. I'm still sticking with my preseason prediction of SPURS, City, Chelsea and Arsenal, in no particular order of course.
Madaboutspurs
cider - Berba may have one of the best touches in the prem but one of the worst attitudes! He still has 6 mths on his Fulham deal, he's not going anywhere for less than two years...He's part of our history now, it would be madness to re-sign him....
shedboy2
Madabout - Sorry, mate. I completely misread your post lol. You said "wouldn't he fit right in with AVB's system?". Unfortunately, I read "wouldn't fit in with AVB's system"...

I made my point on this particular topic yesterday, mate. I said it's ironic that people are on here moaning & groaning all the time, because of our "slow & laboured football", yet they are now suggesting we sign a player that was dropped by Ferguson because he continually slowed down their attacks. So my point was, basically, whether he fits the system or not, it's surely bloody hypocritical to want to sign a player who is perfectly suited to the sort of football that these people are constantly moaning about? Also, when we had Berbatov, he was so damn good because he had Keane doing all his running for him. People complain about Defoe & Soldado "being passengers if they're not scoring", and they're right, but the gifted and sulking Bulgarian would be no different. That said, if Adebayor is sold, the Bulgarian would be a nice short term fix. The thing is, we have clearly moved on from short term fixes, so I'd be very surprised if he is being considered by anyone at THFC.

We should be looking for the next Berbatov, not the current one :-) COYS
coopsieyid
Geoffspur ... sorry been away from here, just got back. Liverpool is a game we can win but depends on their beast as much as anyone. Could we man mark him out of the game? Maybe stick Holtby on him. Will we have a defence? Verts and Kaboul unlikely, Rose? whenever! Vlad I'm not sure about either so looks like the same 2 CBs as Saturday evening. What formation will AVB use? 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 or 4-5-1? I don't know. Who will it/ Soldado or Defoe up front? A lot will depend on Thursday's team I suppose although I'd love to see Bentaleb, mc\evoy et al having a game. Don't risk anymore any Rose situations. Just goes to show how good our squad depth is I dare anyone to select the team for either game and get it correct.
longtimespur
Point 1 – if my Auntie had bollox she’d be my Uncle. Point 2 – if we’d beaten Arsenal we’d be 2 points behind. If we beat Liverpool we’ll be on equal points. If we’d beaten Chelsea we’d be on equal points. If we’d drawn with Man City we’d be above them. Point 3 – we didn’t. Point 4 – we haven’t got going yet.
paddyspur
Point taken coopsie. On that note.. good night. 1am COYS
Madaboutspurs
Tony, why so many caveats for the the positives, yet none for the negatives? Every fact can spin in either direction and you seem to think that we all need to be brought back down to earth for a taste of reality. The reality is that, currently at Spurs, we could see every positive with a caveat of negative, and vice verse. The point, re your posts,(and Topho btw, but you're just ott) is that everyone is very aware of both sides but most choose hold their ground on focusing so heavily on the bad. Do you see this as bad judgement, delusional, denial ana? I'm all up for opinions and alternative views of the same matter, but here we are and, from what I see, we still deserve some positivism even if it is hypothetical, as in, what might be the end game etc. We can suffocate the play, but you are well aware of the pluses that brings too. Incisiveness is surely something AVB is working on, no? So, why ignore this logic for the tilted pessimistic view? Once we start to get the first goal in, teams will open up more. There are many moving parts this season, with the full implementation of AVB tactics (still in process), Bale loss, 7 in, etc. I admit, the possibilities are just that, but they are not implausible by any stretch. I'd be careful about Ful/Sun win's, however, I'd have backed Ful to win yesterday, to hold Everton next week, and Sun to beat WH (altidore to score), after watching them for the last few weeks, they're teams that are coming around and would have thought that it was a good time to play us. We did well, as we have done well many times this season, at limiting chances whilst never appearing to get out of 3rd gear. You make some good points, even Topho does, but just have a view to what might be the actual aim of the team playing the way it is. Jod is right, MU are the template of winning with inferior teams and supporters 'endured' many a *****e game at OT (everyone else suffered the outrage of injustice) while winning in the end. Does AVB's overseeing many comebacks, late goals count for little? We could have something very, very good, but it's definitely not formed yet, I concede. We took the spirit out of the SoL on Sat because of the way we played, a very good tactic for me, just look at the CFC game for the alternative. Anyway, I just think it's better to read guarded positivism/pessimism from our fans for, as Jod's post infers, we just don't know how to remain calm and believe in ourselves. This takes maturity of long term rational, something we've really never had and a tough thing to produce, but it's invaluable.
ardone
Again, OFF TOPIC, but it seems that Derby County want to keep Simon Dawkins permanently. Also, here's what some their supporters are saying about him.............

From DCFC fans:

"Dawkins is soooo good."

"Dawkins is immense, his ability to run direct at defences using strength and speed is vital. No defender wants to have to deal with that at any level, signing him is an absolute must"

"Had my doubts about Dawkins originally, but my he looks dangerous now. Moves like a gazelle and makes intelligent runs"

"Dawkins is looking a real player now. "

"Dawkins still an enigma to me. Seems unwilling to work hard, scared of a tackle but then does something brilliant!"

"Dawkins was dangerous all day long."

"Dawkins was quality, his movement was really good."

"Dawkins looks really good, he's got fast feet, decent control and lifts his head up"....................

Then there's these comments from our own supporters...

"Big kudos to Tim for rescuing him off the scrap heap after Harry had let him go; he really does look like a footballer."

"Ye was going to ask if anyone else caught the highlights, looks a different level to the rest of the players. His dribbling, passing and creativity was impressive. No wonder our club didn't want to just release him there is clear talent there."

"My recollection is that at the end of his first season Harry cleared out the reserves to bring through the academy graduates (Townsend, Caulker et al). Dawkins was among those who contract was not renewed, but he certainly had no intention of retiring; he had trials at clubs immediately after leaving Spurs, but could not show to advantage because he was still carrying his injury. It was after he asked to train at Spurs the following close season that he caught the eye of Tim, who got him a new contract."
coopsieyid
Cider ... Berba is the best player I have ever seen at pulling a ball out of the air under complete control, even surrounded by opposition players. He did it consistently for us, against us last week, and for Fulham on Sunday. He is also brilliant at holding the ball up as a lone striker. He does things nobody else even thinks of, and I enjoy watching the freshness of that. If we could get him for one season, what is there to lose? My favourite Spurs player for years ... after the Croatian!!!
Geofspurs
longtime ... yes, it's so difficult to call. I'd be tempted to keep Capoue in the back line instead of Dawson for this one. Capoue as a CB and Sandro as a defensive midfielder puts two hurdles in front of Suarez! Can't wait for it myself.
Geofspurs
Ardone, why is having a view that things could be improved that of a pessimist? This is the myth I see spun on here so often. I am labelled with it so often as are several/many others. I am an optimist in all walks of my life, people who have worked with me in the past or those who work with me now would all say this. So why on here am I a pessimist? I have views on how things might not be going well for us and views on how that might be changed to make things more positive. I will argue them strongly at times, That to me is positive. I see the same with Tony and many of the others like BIGC who was hounded out of here by a few posters and Frank who is often labelled a pessimist, I see so so many things in his posts which would positively improve us. Of course we want to win more when playing badly, of course we want to win more and of course we would like to win more playing very well. We all want all of those things that must be a given.
tophobunty1882
Defoe has not scored in his last 15 appearances. He has not had a goal in is last 720 minutes on the pitch. Not one goal. (Sigurdsson, in his 700 minutes this season has 3 goals) And in his last 1400 minutes on the pitch he has 1 goal and 1 assist. You can't even make them plural. Soldado, who everyone with eyes will acknowledge has not gotten anywhere near the service he needs has 4 goals and 2 assists in 1010 minutes on the pitch. Hardly great, but Defoe in one game got more service than Soldado has all year long. My "bias" if you will, has been created by years and years of watching Defoe either score or do nothing. At his best, he scores at a rate of .6 goals over 90 minutes on the pitch. He does not contribute assists in any amount to make it noteworthy. He has never been a team player. He did nothing on Saturday other than spur the chances he was given, yet again. This song has been played to death. Until we move on from Defoe, our striker position will remain a problem

On another note, Townsend was excellent coming off the left, which is where we need him. His decision-making was spot on and I would start him there against Liverpool. He and Chadli can fight for the minuites out left. Lennon, who had another excellent game, needs to be on the right and we need Lamela to take that away from him. Walker had the best game I have seen him play in a Spurs shirt against Sunderland. His creation was excellent. Interplay with Lennon was very smooth and his defensive positioning and play was as good as I have seen it. Once he left himself out of position and it was to create an offensive play. He had cover in Lennon, so no big worry. If he just plays ayt 90% of that level, he will be the best RB in the PL. I saw a lot of good in the Sunderland game. The quick touches and "instinctive" play is starting to come. We are not far off from seeing it all sart to click. We need Jan back in the middle. We need Rose back. Rose and Townsend on the left will be very fast up and down the pitch. Add that to Walker and Lennon on the right, and our wide play will have everything in it to create for the strikers, and for the wingers. The MF'ers coming in late will be the beneficiaries. Hang in until the New Year and then look out. Up the Spurs. COYS
peterballb
If reports are to be believed (naive) AVB doesn't tolerate players with attitude and won't conform to the team ethic. Difficult then to believe that Berbatov would be high on his list even if Levy/Baldini approved.
Love totty
All those speaking of Defoe missing chance are wide of the mark themselves. The facts are he has started two games and we've won two games, main reason I feel is we have some consistency and players who know each other very well I.e. Lennon and Defoe.. Against Fulham he made great chances for Paulinho and Lemela so you can't even say he only shoots, against Sunderland very unlucky to hit the post with two very difficult chances and yes a bit shi1 with a couple of one on ones but no strikers scores every time. The important thing is to keep the consistency and build the team around players like Lennon and Defoe, that way you can bring the Holtby's in who know where the striker is going to run, Paulinho and Lemela will also learn quicker that way as well.
T.H.F.Chris
Geof, i would punt for that Capoue over Dawson with Sandro in front. Not too worried about Daws in the box but on the edge or 10-30 yards out of it facing Saurez, now way. Would be good to see how Capoue would cope with the sternest of tests, you simply dont know unless you try, same with Fryers.....and Geof ref Berba, another thing about his Man U days is that virtually all the squad to a man said he could do things that all the other players could only dream of, but we dont need to know that we have all seen it week in week out from him for a few years now, one of the most technically gifted players ever to play in the Prem and still good for another 1-2 years, fags and all.
tophobunty1882
Coopsieyid I would suggest we do not let them keep him permanently then.
T.H.F.Chris
Peter and Defoe's stats the 20 games before that? How close to this bad run you have now posted for the 30th time I think does the shift of Bale from left to centre? One also assumes you are talking starts here no last 15 as sub? Be fair with your stats, many others have pulled you up on this one many times ref Defoe.
tophobunty1882
What's with all the Berbatov love? It would be like opening up your arms again to a high class whore/gigolo, that once charmed the pants off you, teased you with some artful foreplay, but made love to you, half heartedly, whilst fantasising about how they're gonna spend all your money. Only to torment you by openly coveting the priceless silver of a more wealthy and attractive punter than you………..Once bitten, twice shy, Berby!
MAN ON!
Winning ugly is a good thing, playing ugly is different. Playing ugly throws back memories of the 80's when the long ball was played over the midfield, which Spurs are not (the exception maybe Dawson with his long raking diagonal balls). Winning ugly is the winning mentality, and you can't win by just playing pretty foorball. You have to do the dirty stuff to win or scrap a draw. Spurs was always accused of having a soft belly from the 90's onwards but now we have a wealth of talented players who will fight. COYS!
James1
Defoe... Cant score against the worst team in the PL= Winner AVB... Win against the worst team in the PL= Idiot Fascinating that posters have an opinion and it changes to suit their argument. ITS NOT WINNING UGLY!!! FFS! It is the basic foundations that AVB is trying to put into place. Lets take out that stuff that just happens in football re Referees, Own Goals etc. Each and every match is diff and each and every match is a diff opponent creating a hell of a lot more variables than 900 posts on VS. AVB, his management and the players have made it their goal to be solid and hard to beat, when the team aint really playing well, or the ref has a slip up or the odd calamity we have the determination to bounce back. A winning mentality brought about from confidence. This imaginary hair gel or click into gear is what we are all craving, its called confidence. Teams that have played together for a period of time ie, City,Che,Le Ars,Liverfool,Everton and of course the ever fading United all have confidence in their play. I cant understand how posters think we need to play "trffic" for 90 min of football. My god under harry we averaged 40% possession and just ran past up the pitch with Lennon and Bale! There's a lot of this season left and I for one have a lot of confidence in this team!
Mix26
Tops we all know Peter's feeling on Defoe, had to read it so many times, why not just leave him to have that view, its obvious to all those who dont have an agenda, that yes he missed chances, but generally played well against both Fulham and Sunderland.
Ossie
Defoe is not the answer but he has done well when played, we have won our last row games with him so give him a chance against Liverpool who will be a much sterner test for us. Soldado has not been all that bad as others have said. I feel soldado will come good but will have to fight for his place just like everyone else.
Kong
Then again, I've always got time for a hip shaking, sweet talking floozy who knows how to wet my whistle and play a good tune...
MAN ON!
Coopsie, Dawkins is that one player that you just want to succeed. Will he do it at Spurs? Who knows. He earned (and I do mean earned) rave reviews in MLS where he was a handful fo defenders to deal with. I think we need better, but I'd love for him to succeed. He has unfortunately had many setbacks in his career and I'm sure most teams believe him to be too old to be considered a prospect. COYS
peterballb
I think that we can all agree that it is difficult to maintain good form as a team for the 90 minutes of a game never mind the 38 games of the season. Why is that? Do players who train every day together suddenly ungel? Or is the notion of gelling just an excuse for using trial and error to search for the right team structure and players to fit it. I could do that but I doubt I'd ever win anything.
Love totty
Take it easy, Madabout :-)

longtime - re Rose. The last I/We heard from AVB was "He is back training with the full squad but Sunderland and Anzhi are probably too soon for him"... So that intimates that he'll at least be considered for Liverpoo? I've seen a few people elsewhere saying "Anzhi is the perfect game to play a returning player & get him match fit". I disagree!! In principal I can see their point BUT I can also imagine the responses if he is used in that 'dead rubber match' and picks up another knock, or a muscle strain etc. It'll be a case of "fecking clueless manager, playing him in a meaningless game" etc etc. The poor bloke won't be able to win, no matter what decision he makes.
coopsieyid
MAN ON stay away frome whores that bite, they are not worth your silver.
T.H.F.Chris
How can one possibly freak at Soldado (who, by all accounts has played well in all but a couple of his appearances) when all we expect of Defoe is toshow up, shoot and miss. My agenda is clear. Spurs to win. You don't do that with a striker who rarely scores and who does not play in anyone else. That's like sayiong that Lloris played well against City. Ok he was in a decent position on all six goals. He just didn't manage to save any of them. That was Defoe Saturday. The difference was that everyone around him was not having a mare. He scores on his "dead on" chance against West Ham and that is a different game. But he didn't. Yes, Defoe ran around a bunch against Fulham and Sunderland. He runs were much better against Sunderland. He had lots of chances. Took lots of shots. Stayed onside. He had a great game. He's a super player. 6M and you can have him apparently. Top top striker. COYS
peterballb
AVB does not intend for us to play ugly. He is trying to install a system that stifles the opposition and nullifies their attacking options whilst being in control of the game. We have brought in players that are skilful, attack minded and versatile. When we are solid, have more understanding as a team and the roles of individual players within that system, our confidence rises and the team step up and perform to their expected abilities. There will be good and bad, pretty and ugly, but the future of THFC, to me, looks bright. I could be wrong, but then again……….
MAN ON!
LT good post, suffice to say when the chips are down its best to be great at defending than just good all round.
Mix26
TonyRich, although we beat, Liverpool,Arsenal,ManUre,Citeh last season we have all those fixtures still to come. We got exactly the same results from those games we have played. Point at home to ManUre and lost the rest. Add to that an extra 2 points v Chelski and Everton and we are stiil OK with the top lot. Like every season it is the defeats to Newcastle and Wet Spam that were unexpected. Still every team is dropping points. I thought we were good v Sunderland as we actually played with width and looked much better as a result. Got in behind several times and like most have said Defoe was unlucky and deserved a goal to make it more comfortable. But hey we are Tottenham after all and don't make life easy. Prefer we score from all over the pitch too so we don't have to rely on one man, like Bale, Suarez etc.
CoysRus
This will be defoe's chance against a bigger team that is Liverpool, he hasn't scored against the bottom teams yet. Soldado is better than Defoe but needs the service, his time will come and will justify his price tag.
Kong
T.H.F - Thanks for responding, re Dawkins. I've never seen the guy even kick a ball before BUT it's positive to see how supporters of the club he is on loan at, are rating him. Certainly sounds positive, doesn't it? Yeah he's 26 now BUT his injury record has been truly awful, so much so, he's come very close to retiring in the past. Tim Sherwood is VERY highly thought of by the THFC board, so his decision to persuade them to give Dawkins a contract must surely be based upon footballing ability only? After-all, it's his job/reputation that is on the line.
coopsieyid
Peter by what accounts has Soldado played well? if so why is he benched? Saying he has been average is really giving him the benefit of doubt. Peter you simply hate Defoe, it's written all over your posts about him possibly 100 plus now slaughtering him.
tophobunty1882
Peter - Thank you to you also. I've seen you commenting about Dawkins in the past, so hoped you'd comment on the post I made. Like you, after the luck he's had, I just want him to succeed. It's as though the book has been written over the last 10 years or so, now they're just applying the final chapter before making the film, lol.
coopsieyid
Kong, i think Soldado will improve, that wouldnt be difficult would it. But justify his price tag at 28? very unlikely indeed.
tophobunty1882
Your agenda is Spurs to win, and Spurs won, so all should be good, as for Defoe being a top striker, no1 has stated that!!!!!!!!!!!Broken record is my only opinion, hence why I ask Tops to leave you to your view!!!!
Ossie
That's for sure topho. MAN ON, is that your memory teasing you?! lol My last comment on Berba ... I would willingly put up with the negatives that I agree (to some extent) he has, just to see those moments of sheer footballing brilliance and audacity that he is capable of, and that nobody else even attempts. Well, maybe that was my last comment on berba. Don't even get me started on Modric ... now I've made myself cry again!!
Geofspurs
Who'd be a manager? Poor old Moyes stating that RVP should have been substituted after 70 mins but he was concerned about the backlash of taking him off, when needing goals. Of course, it was risking a knock-back on RVPs recovery from injury. Moyes would then be blasted for leaving him on! It's a tough job pleasing the fans, the board, the players and the press! Highly paid, but tough.
MAN ON!
lol nope for Peter to hate Defoe he would have to start calling him "Nogoaldado" or "Lamella"... Peter is accurate in his report on Defoe. Why are 7 other strikers playing for Eng ahead of Defoe? Cause he is aint the right quality.
Mix26
Geofspurs…..I can't remember.
MAN ON!
I'm getting confused ... who is this 'Ugly', and what position does he play?! If he is no good then, quite simply, don't play Ugly!
Geofspurs
Two points from me. (1)...i only stated that I have rarely seen a talent as good as Berba controlling 50+ yard passes out of the air with immediate control. Great 1st touch. This does not equate to wanting to sign him, bitter taste from the 1st time round. Do i think he could do a job?. When considering Ade's no show all season, yes he could be a good addition, however, not THE addition. So that's that, clear as cloudy cider.

(2) Win Ugly ??, Kind of lost in translation for me, grinding out results, showing a steely determination to see games out and secure the Three points, breaking them down with possession tactics. If this is what is to be considered "ugly", then surely the primary objective, namely winning games at times has been met. how can this be "ugly"??. This is beautiful. I have so much more confidence in our defensive duties now, we are (City aside), Spam ?, a much harder team to break down. We are slowly looking more like a team unit with others developing good partnerships or ressurecting those that were before. I'd say all teams at some point have to do the nitty gritty in order to secure the points, we most probably have had to do it more as a result of the high volume of new signings. I myself can appreciate how we have moved on and are now capable of seeing games out, something Spurs were never renowned too often for in recent history. "Soft Underbelly" as i recall. good luck telling Sandro and Capoue that one. build from the back, i think the front will not be too far behind. Plethora of talent in final 3rd, actually, IMO, in Mid field, defence, and one of the best goalkeepers in Europe between the sticks. Winning Ugly....fecking Awesome!!!.
Cider spurs
agreed Ossie....
tophobunty1882
Yes Townsend played well when he came on...do i think he's our answer on the left, no surprise, No! Every time he starts somewhere new he does well and then fades(as he does during matches as well, 70 min player)....could I be persuaded? of course...put him Left against Anzhi, let's see how he defends. Against liverpool he'll be up against a very good RB who likes to get forward...seems to me we have Chadli who we bought for the left, A.T. and lamela who can play left as lennon is nailing down the right...No coincidence that we've played better with Lennon on the right...let's see if we can fix the left...3 good players to choose from and that's without Gylfi!
shedboy2
I don't want Berba back at Spurs for obvious reasons, but if somehow he does return then he will get my full support. He did, after all is said and done, entertain us with some fantastic football.
MAN ON!
Cider ... agree with point 2).
Geofspurs
Cider - You don't half chat some sheit. I agree :-)
coopsieyid
Berba can return to Spurs... if he licks Danny boys arse clean first I suspect... Other than that option I honestly don't think Berba has the discipline to play for Spurs. Besides he left a title winning team? Speaks a lot about his character. (Im sure he said 'When a team like United call u etc etc and I will finish my career there' )
Mix26
MAN ON!...As stated, he would not be my first choice, but he can play and could do a job. My support would follow, same as anyone else donning the club shirt.
Cider spurs
coops...you know me mate...Keepin it real'.
Cider spurs
Cider spurs…..I just don't feel we need him anyway. It will be a step backwards when we're supposed to be building for the long term future.
MAN ON!
Mix26 ... I'm sure I read another quote where he said, with genuine feeling, 'It's been my boyhood dream to play for Spurs twice'!
Geofspurs
Cider, you never fail to make me smile (laugh my fecking head off).

Geof - That was Bergkamp ;-)
coopsieyid
lol!
Mix26
Off topic somewhat, but i suppose i can link it loosely to the article because it may allow for winning beautifully. ( blag with the best of them ). We all keep saying we need another striker up top, we need another striker this coming window. Have we actually considered which strikers are genuinley going to be available this forthcoming window, and the cost?. In all honesty, it is not going to be a simple case of just going out and signing a striker. Those not playing may harbour hopes of a World cup squad inclusion, this may help our cause, down side, why are they not playing in the 1st instance?. I really can't think of many that are going to be available, a hard task awaits i feel.
Cider spurs
Heung Min Son looks the bees knees. Every club will be after that boy and I would love to see him in the squad. It would take a hefty transfer fee to prise him from Hamburg (I think). COYS!
James1
coops....Glad to be of assistance. That said, you were bang on it the other day if i'm not too mistaken. West Country water eh!!...Love it. ;-)
Cider spurs
Yes, this is all like the Pav is a donkey who scores .6 goals per 90 minutes played while Defoe is the man who scres .6 goals pe 90 minutes. Pav was, at all times at Spurs, as prolific as Defoe (or more so, in League and cups). He just didn't get to play. Soldado is far better than that and a motivated Adebayor would be even better still. I believe we need to be starting the best players we have and that is not Defoe. I suppose the same message being delivered over and over as a result of the same results, year after year, will tend to sound like a broken record. Had Sandro been penalized, as he should have, and that game finished 2-2, I can assure you all there would be a lambasting going on here for all the same reasons as all the previous times. Just more of the same. The stats are there for all to see. Soldado needs to play and play regularly. If he does not, he will not succeed. That is not in the best interests of Spurs. COYS
peterballb
I agree with JOD that winning when not playing well is important, however we need perspective on this. Let's see how we do against some of the top ten first. So far we have played, Chelsea, ManU, Everton, Arsenal, City of our direct rivals and have managed 3 points from 15 with a GD of -7. There are many good points to extract from the last two games, AVB and the players seem to now be playing with more pace, directness, tempo and balance, it's finally sinking in and we as a consequence are creating more and better chances. I don't know how the change has come about, maybe AVB has had an epiphany, maybe the players have decided, to play with more freedom, maybe it's Lennon, maybe the City game was what we needed, who knows, but it isn't just some magic gel, something has changed and we are seeing it on the pitch. Get good results against L'pool and Southampton and we may start to really feel that a corner has been turned.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Topho - yes soldado will improve and will justify his £26m price tag, he has not been as bad as you make out. Seems like you have had it in for soldado since we were linked with him, not giving him a chance, stating no goals from open play how many times and you say Peter is bias against defoe, you are the same with soldado. I don't care who plays as long as we win, long term I feel soldado will provide more than Defoe.
Kong
James1…I've not seen or heard of Heung Min Son. ls he a Korean guy? Is he a centre forward?
MAN ON!
Shed...great one.. Put Townsend left against Anzi and lets see how he defends. Focus.....xxx
tophobunty1882
Good question Cider! I thought of Berbatov (not sure if I mentioned that?), so now it's someone else' turn!
Geofspurs
James1...Were we not linked to him before?, as i recall VDV was singing his praises not too long ago. Think he's quite a half tidy finisher, but is he not more of a winger than striker?.
Cider spurs
Everybody ... I see James is back so (ssh) don't mention the cricket!
Geofspurs
Plan...score more, conceded less. End.
tophobunty1882
Epiphany....The new Gel For Men.
Cider spurs
Cleveland , shame about the Browns yesterday I had a feeling the Pats would win after the Browns scored their last TD, and Josh Gordon, what a player!!!!!!
Ossie
Kong I have praised Soldado but he has given limited opportunity, I sincerely hope he becomes a great goalscorer for us, sincerely.
tophobunty1882
Geof...Behave yourself, that little Croatian Midfielder we used to have on our books....What's his name???..AH!!....I know...
Cider spurs
James1, too late now. We have no chance for Son. That deal needed to be done last January or in the summer if it was going to happen. Better look to another target.

Shedboy2, I do not agree on Townsend. His decision-making has been much better over his last 6 or 7 appearances and his defensive work has improved on a game by game basis. He is not the finished product, but he is a definite option on the left, where he has rarely played over the past 2 years. The fact he can shoot with both legs is a huge plus because he can still cut in and hurt the opposition, but it will be his crossing that will open up the scorng chances. Teams cheat on the right to push him to the middle. On the left, they won't be able to do that as his crossing with his left foot is way better. He has all the tools to be an elite player. AS do Lamela, Chadli and Eriksen. The difficulty is to get them all in the lineup often enough to make certain that the development continues. COYS
peterballb
I see the usual Defoe bias continues. He had a great game against S'land but for some it's never enough. JD basically created at least 2 of those chances for himself, and the only howler was the shot he dragged wide from the Holtby through ball. JD gives us more pace + sharpness up front than Soldado. Soldado seems to expect that the ball has to be played to his feet, he needs to learn that in the PL, you have to make the runs. Detailed analysis by NBC after the Newcastle game showed that he isn't making runs to either post when in the box. His total of 4 goals and 2 assists include 3 pens and an assist which was just a pass out to Townsend who scored that cross shot against Villa. Hardly inspiring. JD on the other hand, a player that never scores has a career stat of a goal every 2.79 games, has over 100 goals for THFC (you can buy a DVD of them), 23 European goals and is our 5th highest scorer of all time. Prior to his 1 in 20 odd PL games without a goal, I would like to remind everyone that he did get 9 Pl goals in 15 Pl games last season, at a point when we had no other striker worth a name. He currently has 7 EL goals this season and 2 in the CC. I thank JD for his contribution.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
I hope so too Topho, if he does then it will help greatly as we won't spend that kind of money all the time.
Kong
Cider - I don't think I've ever been "bang on it" mate. Then again, I'd probably never have noticed, due to the over consumption of that West Country water, you refer to ;-)
coopsieyid
Cider ... That's finished me. I can't take it anymore. I'm going to bed! Night all.
Geofspurs
Geofspurs hahahaha I'm over it now :( MAN ON! he plays in several positions up front but his finishing is sublime. He has the physique to cope with the demands of PL but as Peterballb mentioned, the deal should have been done when we had the chance. COYS!
James1
Kong, but I dont think he will. .....................On a much happier note I have decided that I am in love with Shedboy. Not any old Shedboy but Shedboy2. I want to marry him and ask for Andros to be best man. This feeling wont go away now (bit like peter/defoe) the only decision remaining is who will have the children.
tophobunty1882
Geof - Good night, Sir.
coopsieyid
And sweet dreams, about Modric :-) lol
coopsieyid
@Ossie, I'm not American and I don't support the Browns, I don't like nor understand American football, however the Browns are the hard luck story to end all hard luck stories. There's definitel no way that you are going to get me to sit in their stadium for 4 hours in 25F temps :)
Cleveland ARTSPURS
@Topho, If Andros is your best man, he'll probably never pass you the ring Lol, sorry couldn't resist it. Maybe it depends whether he stands on the left or the right.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Fecking BRILLIANT, Cleveland lol
coopsieyid
Topho, we will find out this season won't we. As long as tottenham achieve their targets then I don't mind who scores the goals. Surprised you are not in love with Townsend instead.
Kong
I really think Soldado and Defoe, with Kane in reserve, is enough to see us through to the end of the season if they can start scoring some bloody goals! I think our major problem has been the lack of supply in to the box, but if the last couple of matches are anything to go by then those guys might just start scoring. I know we need another, preferably young and hungry, new forward, but if our many talented midfielders can chip in with a few more then we could be alright. I don't want anymore stopgap, temporary fixes, as in our recent past.
MAN ON!
My bad Cleveland!! dont know what you missing... :-)
Ossie
Cleveland...Masterful post, very funny. ;-)
Cider spurs
Leave it out cousin, you're making me jealous! It's me, Shedboy or Andros. The choice is yours, but choose wisely.Remember, blood is thicker than water.
tophobunty3.5
MAN ON!...I'm kind of thinking out the box here, How's about chadli linking it up as second striker or in the hole?. 6' 2" very able to shield the ball, good target man, and the starring stat, excellent finisher, does not panic usually in front of goal. I think he could work out well in the hole or part of a pairing, maybe Eriksen or Townsend Left. Rose should not be too long returning now, so Eriksen would not mean all the width is lost. Eriksen can pick a pass, he has also scored some crackers drifting in from Left.
Cider spurs
This is only offered as a thought if we are not able to sign anybody of the standard or style we require.
Cider spurs
Bias has nothing to do with it. 1 goal in 26 appearances. That's 1 goal in 26 appearances. People were shocked when Crouch still played at 1 in 21. 1 in 26. That's not stripping out penalties. Yes, Defoe's stats are as stated. In 530 professional appearances, he has 219 goals. Soldado has 200 goals in 413 appearances. It's funny how it seems that Pav's and Soldado's goals always had asterisks. Oh, they were penalties. How many of Defoe's goals were penalties? Where are the asterisks for his Wigan goals that were mis-hits (2 of the 5 were in a game where he could have scored 8). Yes, once Defoe got 18 League goals. 5 against Wigan, 3 against Hull. It's what he is. This is not bias. It's fact. At best he scores .6 goals per 90 minutes. If he played every minute of the season he would, if at his best (which he hasn't been for years) score 23 goals and get a couple of assists. Soldado scored 24 league goals last season in 35 appearances. Just saying. Unless I have miissed something, in his last 11 starts against Liverpool he has 1 goal and 0 assists. In the league this season he has 0 goals and 0 assists. So, I suppose one could say he does not fare well against Liverpool or in the League this season and be labelled as biased, or one could say he is due. COYS
peterballb
That could be a good call. Chadli is an imposing figure, strong and good with his head. I've suggested Eriksen on the left wing before and I've been impressed with Townsend playing there when coming on. There are many alternatives and I can see this one working.
tophobunty3.5
Cider, I agree with Eriksen. He can certainly play left side. He looks very dangerous and seems to have scored a lot of goals and created assists drifting in from the left for Ajax. I still want Dembele further up the pitch..I'd rather Dembele there tbh and have Eriksen playing in that hole. COYS!
James1
You see what you started Topho........
Ossie
Chadli could do a good job there, for sure.
MAN ON!
tophobunty3.5…..Whoever you are, I agree!
MAN ON!
….About Chadli that is!
MAN ON!
Arsenal vs Spurs ...FA cup ITV1, Saturday 4th january 5.15 pm (GMT)
Cider spurs
That's one match where a replay could be a good thing. I think our squad is better equipped to deal with congestion than Arsenal are. The only way I see them coming back to the pack is if injuries and fixture congestion rear their ugly heads. They are definitely the most consistent team thus far this season. COYS
peterballb
peter...I think the only thing that will stop Arsenal is injuries to defensive elements of regular first team starters. Plenty have been saying all season that they can't sustain their current pace, this may just be the case, but as of yet it is showing no signs of slowing. factor in Chamberlain, Podolski and Walcott not long back, offensively they could actually become stronger. Most teams have a dip in form however, how long it takes them to recover if this happens will be interesting to bear witness to, we must be close enough to take advantage.
Cider spurs
Winning ugly ? Seems a oxymoron to me. All I care is for is the three points. COYS.
Arky
@peter, the bias emanates from things like saying 1 goal in 26 apps, which takes into account a portion of last season's games, however you fail to mention repeatedly, that he scored 9 in 15 prior to that. Wouldn't it be fairer and a truer reflection of Defoe's current form if you stated it as 2013-2014 he got 10 goals in 27 PL starts, and for this one 0 goals in 3 starts rather 1 in 26. In addition why not include his Europa goals, he has 7 in 5 games. In a previous post RE Soldado, you stated he has 6 goals in 15 games, these games include Europa goals. This illustrates a lack of consistency in reporting, and thus induces bias to the data set by definition.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
I meant 2012-2013 he got 10 goals in 27 starts
Cleveland ARTSPURS
I know not which way Andros swings Clevelend, I think he can go both ways and quickly.....Kong agree 100% as long as we get 4th I dont care if Lloris is our top scorer.......I thought someone would do it sooner or later.....I wonder who it is .....
tophobunty1882
Peter- what don't you agree on re Townsend? As I said I'm open to him claiming the left...I just hope we don't see the same hype that we saw keeping him on the right to the detriment of the team....people (not you in particular) look at one or two good things going forward and forget the game is 90mins and most of a players work is off the ball...If AT can get on and do a consistent full shift up and down the pitch I'll be happy...If he comes on and shines for 20min in his first game then disappears for the next 6 games we'll all be unhappy...but probably blaming - Soldado, Defoe, Dembele etc AVB, but in that case he'd deserve it...
shedboy2
Cleveland...That is a fair point REF: Posting certain stats. ( by no means a dig at you Peter, pointless put downs/ arguements are not my thing). What i want to point out is that on the occasions i post goal return stats, i always only use games started, for all competitions, Internationals included. This hopefully allows for a more rounded picture to emerge, some games may have been easy international friendlies, some against the best teams in Europe, it does allow for a somewhat more realistic reflection as a average on all fronts. If some wish to get in depth analysis, ESPN, have a pretty conclusive set of stats for most players highlighting everything right down to shots on target and fouls commited. Very easy to use stats depending on your agenda, i'll continue to try and keep the stats i post using the same format every time. Fairest way IMO, cannot be deemed biased nor favourable to agendas.
Cider spurs
Tops- you can have the kids...they're hard work!...;)
shedboy2
Talksheit reporting Damiao could be of to Santos after weekend talks .Fee could be as low as £2.5 million with a player exchange included. Midfielder Arouca has been touted as the potential makeweight.
Cider spurs
Kong - Why will, or should t be this season that Soldado proves anyone right or wrong? As has been pointed out countless times, not by me, Suarez only scored 4 goals when he first moved to Liverpoo, though that was in 13 games. Sounds familiar, no? Then in his 2nd season in the PL, he scored 11 PL goals in 31 PL games (17 in 39 over-all). Then last season he came to life....

Van Persie - 5 PL goals in 26 PL games, in his first season. Second season was 5 PL goals in 24 PL games. 3rd season was 11 PL goals in 22 PL games, and so on, and so on.

Drogba - 10 PL goals in 26 PL games, followed by 12 PL goals in 29 PL games, followed by 20 in 36, and so on, and so on....

I'd like to think my point is pretty bloody clear here. Truly WORLD CLASS players, yet each and every one of them took at least a season or two to settle in, and get used to PL football. Why the f*** should Soldado have to be an 'immediate success' if talent like theirs took so long to 'work in the PL' ?

Some people are simply unrealistic in their expectations. YES there is the odd player who comes over and hits the ground running, but they're really few & far between. Then there's talent like the big tank at Aston Villa, Benteke, who came in last season, took the league by storm, now hasn't scored for 8 matches, has the same 4 goals as our 'failure' Soldado does, including 2 penalties in 1 game against Le Scum, which shows the other side of the coin. Just because they 'hit the ground running' does not mean they'll continue to do so.

I'm certain that there will be SEVERAL members on here who can remember the many different people throughout the summer, when we were linked with Benteke, who were saying things like "he has had a great season BUT the money being spoken about will only be worth it if he repeats this form next season". Or "I'd rather wait until after he's had at least 2 seasons, we all know about the '2nd season syndrome' ", etc etc..... As things currently stand, it 'appears' those members were spot-on with what they said.

Sorry I've gone on so much, Kong. I was just attempting to be thorough, whilst explaining why, in my opinion, it's just downright ridiculous to proclaim Soldado as "a waste of money", or "a stupid purchase", when even better players/goalscorers than him have struggled to make any real impact in the PL until after at least 1 season of experiencing it. Sorry again for going on so much. COYS
coopsieyid
Excuses, Excuses.....just kidding!!.
Cider spurs
coops - not saying Soldado is useless- I like him. But he was a strange purchase at 28. to spend so much we were never getting back...take into account his age if he takes a year or two to settle we might only get one decent season out of him....I would have preferred tempting Athletico Madrid for Costa at 27-30m...if he didn't work out there would still have been takers back in Spain...but imo he'd have given us the dimension we need up top...it's all history now but Soldado is a strange one for us none the less....
shedboy2
Deal Shedboy2. I have 3 already a couple more would be lovely. I think we have an imposter now though maybe he is after your hand too?
tophobunty1882
Cleveland, I have never mentioned Euopa and League Cup goals without mentioning them for the other player, so, if I mentioned them, I was in reference to, or in comparison to, what Defoe has done. My stats are almost always (painstakingly, I might add) done as a goals/assists to minutes played. It is the only fair stat. Defoe scored 18 goals, Pav scored 6 makes on look like a top striker and the other a donkey. Both scord .6 goals per 90 minues on the pitch. Either both were donkeys, both great, or more reasonably, both were average. In 700 minutes, Sigurdsson has 3 goals. In a little more, Defoe has none. That is a fair comparison. If Sigurdsson had been on the pitch for every minute of our 15 games while Defoe had only played 700 minutes, that stat is nowhere near as powerful. On equalish minutes, the stats are compaable, except that one is a striker and the other an AMF. We are talking about the here and now, so what has happened in his last 26 appearances is relevant. He has scored once in the PL in all of 2013. is last goal in April. Prior to that it is Decembr 2012 when last he scored, despite having 12 starts and more minutes than Pav was ever deigned to have deserved. Defoe scores against Tromso and he is on fire. Soldado scores against Tromso and he shoud have scored 8. Where am I showng bias. People like him and thus have a bias towards him. People love Friedel too. As footballers and people, they both seem to be genuinely nice. That does not mean that they are not past it. If Defoe were scoring at his historic .6 goals per 90 minutes I would have nothing to say. He has not been that player since the year when Harry made him an impact sub. Since then he has been a shadow of his former self. Stats back that up emphatically. That has nothing to do with bias. Bias is all those who have written off Soldado, Chadli, Sigurdsson, Holtby, Lamela, Eriksen, Rose, Townsend. None have played enough in a Spurs kit truly make any definitive statements, one way or the other. All have talent. All need the time. Same goes for AVB. COYS
peterballb
Soldado is not a waste. He's lacked the service for his style of play. If he had played against Sunderland with the service Spurs provided up front we might have seen the real Soldado. COYS!
James1
The thing that strikes me as laughable is the way Soldado cops so much flack, but only a few will call Ade into question. Yes we could have done with him at times no doubt, but when there were statements of love for the club and fighting spirit to be Spurs number 1 striker...plenty were gushing the love for him. yep, i suggested if he came back and got his head down, trained hard, toed the line, i'd support him. Has he??, maybe some of the flak Soldado recieves could be replaced with Ade's name at the front. At least Soldado has tried, Ade after signing has done.......?....Took the cash. sorry about his brother, truly i am, same as anybody who has lost a loved one. does not give you the right to take the flat out urine though. You wanted goals, assists...We have a player capable of this, he could've made the difference, instead he made it difficult. Some would still welcome him back with open arms, flak for Soldado, and let Ade treat our club like this, and welcome him back. Another example of lack of backing for those that really matter. All IMO of course.
Cider spurs
shedboy2, I thinkthat Townsend is, at very least, part of the solution on the left, and may well be the solution on the left. I'm not suggesting you are loed to that possibility, merely I believe he has shown ufficient over the last 6 or 7appearances for me to be willing to throw him out there against Liverool. Best way to keep a marauding RB in check is to make him have to defend and cheat back. COYS
peterballb
There is still a long way to go this season and who's to say which one of our talented new players will shine. If Soldado is one of them, then great. I agree with you James1, if he gets the right service, puts away a couple of crucial goals, he will gain in confidence and could be seen as money well spent come the end of this season. He has not become a bad player just by donning a Spurs shirt.
MAN ON!
Coops, the age of those players may have something to do with it too! 2 or 3 years down the road Soldado may be retiring? BTW, I am in the camp of he will come good, as will the rest of the team.
Critical_Spur
Cider, I don't use internatioal games for any of my stats. It's a completely different beast. I ue minutes played as I believe stats and short sub aparances will all balance out. Appearances, other than over a career, tend to not tell anyone very much. 20 appearances that total 90 minutes is not the same as playing a whole game, where you get in to the flow and were played in a system that presumably was set up for you. It's why I have such a huge appreciation for Sigurdsson who seems to succeed even though he has to do a lot of his work from off of the bench. It s a whole different mentality. COYS
peterballb
shedboy - My post was not to say whether Soldado was the right or wrong purchase, it was to point out how even better players have taken time to adapt to English football. So to constantly point out "4 goals in 13 games, only 1 from open play" etc etc, is plain shortsighted. It's no coincidence that, whilst playing Europa League, ie a style of opponent & a style of football that he is used to, he has 2 goals in 2 games. Even the 4 in 13 isn't 'too shabby', coming from a player who has never played a minute of PL/British football before this season. Basically 1 in 3 average, pretty much on a par with our own, Jermain 'he's the best natural finisher in the league' Defoe, who has played English football for his whole life. You try telling those 'experts' on MOTD & Sky Sports etc, that ;-).
coopsieyid
Cider spurs……..He may not be the player we all want him to be but look at the tragedies that Defoe has endured in his young life. He always comes back fighting fit, even, if not scoring. Lloris lost his Mother at an early age. He also carried on with a fighting spirit. I do not intend to be harsh on Ade, but life, for all of us, has to go on.
MAN ON!
Shedboy2, I don' think Soldado was top of or ist. I ink he wound up being theidentified striker on the list, that we wanted, who was willing to come at a fee we considered acceptable. My understanding is he makes less than Defoe and Adebayor on the wage front. Wages, price tag, suitability to the style we would be playing, ability to step right in, must all have been considerations. There were lots of other guys I'd have rather had, but most, it would seem, weren't willing to come or we wern't willing to meet the fee or he wage request. Never easy when you don't have CL and you don't offer top wages. That is our reality. He has nothit the ground running and is on pace for 12 goals ad 6 assists. COYS
peterballb
Critical - Drogba was a mere 2 years younger than Soldado when he signed, physically much more suited to PL football, yet still took 2 full seasons to do anything worthy of note ;-)
coopsieyid
Coopsie I agree, I have mentioned the Suarez facts before and giroud didn't gave the greatest scoring season last season. Benteke even had around 5 goals this time last season. Most players take time to settle. I don't think you are suggesting I said he was a waste of money or a stupid purchase. I completely agree with you and seeing those great striker you mentioned and their stats illustrates that it is way to soon to judge soldado.
Kong
The Defoe hatters are out in full force trying to pass the buck onto Defoe for Daniel Levy's total inability to find a striker to replace the other striker on here that's now getting slagged off, Berba, who made some delightful entertaining touches in our recent game with Fulham and hit the woodwork! Yes it's really Defoe's fault that the man who was bought to replace him, who was given the number 1 starting slot up front, has so far failed to do the business at Spurs. So AVB has called Defoe back, gave him another chance because Soldado is clearly lacking confidence. Defoe broke free of his markers on several occasions and hit the woodwork twice from those runs, did not blaze the ball into row T like Townsend. Peter does not understand that strikers create chances by their movements which makes space, which opens up channels for the midfielders to slot passes through, something Soldado has sadly failed to do enough so far at Spurs. Soldado has publicly come out and admitted this. An encouraging display from Defoe, in a game we won... Are the Arsenal fans slagging off Giroud for hitting the woodwork???
Pele10
I think soldado can play at the highest level for at least 5 years.
Kong
Although one could argue the opposite with the examples of Ozil, Ba and Benteke!
Critical_Spur
Chelsea supporting mates of mine, (yeah, they exist), disliked Drogba for a long time and even when he started scoring regularly, it was me, pointing out to them, what a great player he was. They took a lot of convincing. Now Chelsea fans constantly cry out for a Drogba replacement.
MAN ON!
tophobunty1882….Unfortunately Suarez plays for another team.
MAN ON!
peter..That's the thing. On the few occasions i use stats for goal purposes, i do almost always give season upon season figures for a whole career. Allows to see if players have improved declined in relation to age and learning. i include internationals solely because i feel that it helps to indicate the ability to score whilst playing with a whole different team and set up at times. A kind of flexibility pointer if you like. Although not always appropriate hence the career figures. Messi and Argentina being a prime example. Blokes rubbish, would never fit in at Spurs, can't do it for any other team other than Barcelona. ;-)
Cider spurs
Topho - Benteke hasn't scored for 8 games, doesn't mean he is a bad player but he is having a bad season. The villa fans expect more than he has done this season like we are expecting our signings to do well. Soldado did cost too much but we have him now.
Kong
Topho - you have already judged soldado and that is fair enough. I believe he can play here and do well in this league, time will tell.
Kong
So "Benteke was never likely to repeat his amazing success as last season in the same struggling side", yet people who say anything about AVB, Soldado, Lamela etc needing time to get used to eachother, the NEW system etc etc, are simply "making excuses"??

Oh my God, this is comedy gold!!
coopsieyid
Surprise, surprise, Barca struggle to score without Messi in the team!
MAN ON!
MAN ON - That'll be because their manager is clueless without their talisman to dig him out of the sheit!!
coopsieyid
Jon moss refs our weekend fixture. 8 matches...30 yellows, 1 red.
Cider spurs
Well, for me, judging by the changes quite visible in the last three games, we are now creating more opportunities and the play in the last 1/4 appears to be taking shape, IMO, it is time to re-introduce Soldado in to the fold. Why not give Defoe AND Soldado 45 mins together against Anzhi. Goals in a 'meaningless' game may just prove something. COYS!
Critical_Spur
Kong, yes Benteke has not played well for Villa sicne he cam back from his injury, I doubt if the injury is too much to do with it.
tophobunty1882
No, I have no idea that strikers need movement to create chances. I, myself was completely baffled by Soldado shaking his head, time and again, after getting himslf in to a great positions only to have one of our players blast the ball in to row Z rather than pass to the open man. His movement was fundamental to Paulinho's goal as was his choice to not go in for the ball. On our first 8 goals he was instrumental on 7 yet only had one assists (Sigurdsson) and 3 penalties. That was all down to movement that frees up the other players. The difference in movement is that when Soldado or Ade go somewhere, they either get themselves open or they pull players out of position. Defoe doesn't do that. If you need a great expose on that watch Bale's goals from last season. In that clip, you will numerous times see defoe running himself out of position, yet players like Dempsey, Sigurdsson, Adebayor are making themselves available or contributing to the space that Bale ran in to. It's a huge difference. IMO, and that's all it is (though stats back it up but it is far too nebulous to be able to attribute only one factor), Defoe either scores or he greatly limits whoever else is up top. There is no creation or space to run in to for other players. Defoe's runs, are, in general, poor. Usually in behind defenders who are 8 inches taller than him. Adebayor and Soldado are both in a completely different class and both can and do play in others. So long as we win, it's all good. Myself, I would not be leaning on a striker with 1 goal and 1 assist in his last 26 PL appearances. Just me. Bring back Crouch. His numbers were better. Actually, his numbers are better. 5 goals and 3 assists in his last 26 appearances. It's a results based industry. COYS
peterballb
I don't know why the talk persists about Benteke. The cost was more than we were willing to pay and way above any neutral valuations. We don't pay over the odds. We did not pick Soldado instead of him. He had deded reup with Villa weeks before Soldado was signed. His tackling, movement chance creation numbers, goals and assists ll sugest that he will be a success. He is just a puppy and is being shut down this year. If Weiman et al would start scoring more, he would get more space, but opponents don't need to focus on anyone other than Benteke. I woul take Benteke in an instant and he would be an upgrade and focal point for us for the next decade. But not at 30-40M. COYS
peterballb
I'm sure that I'm not the only one thoroughly disgusted by the way you two are carrying on like spoiled kids each trying to have the last word. Well let me tell you both that you are spoiling the site for everybody else who have to scroll endless past your dirge and drivel. Let this be an end ffs.
Love totty
Peter a number of ex playing pundits appear to disagree with you ref the quality of Soldados movement off the ball, maybe even your wonderful AVB does at the moment too? what do you think? Do you think that 22-25mill was over the odds for Benteke at 22 but you dont think it was for Soldado at 26mill aged 28?
tophobunty1882
Berbatov could definitely be the short term striker solution. But what about the future? Look no further than PSV's young goalscorer Jurgen Locadio. A real powerhouse, big, strong, and a handful for defenders. Everton has been a big hit so far this season and one of the main reasons is the bustling form of. Romelo Lukaka. Locadio is of similar style and maybe even ability and the PL is just the place for him to display his talent.
neymar
Play ugly, lose ugly.Or play the beautiful game and win with style….
MAN ON!
Well, since I disagree with most of what the Sky4 pundits say, I am not really too worried. I'll go with what I see and interpret. As for your, once again pulled out of thin air numbers, they were never the price. Nowhere did Villa ever say he was for sale or 22-25M Lambert did say,on more than one occasion, he is not for sale and that only an exceptional offer would chage that (read Modric excetional not Bale excptional). Bentee was not available. Spurs were not the only interested team. He got his wage upped more thasn was initially mootd and he hose to stay, rescindin his transfer request. The only pundits I give any credence to are Macca and Pleat, and I don`t agree with all they say either. They all have favourites, team biases etc that completelty clouds what they say. The press love Harry. Doesn`t make him a good coach. But he is a great quote machine. As for Soldado`s price tag, 26M is what you pay for a player in their prime who has netted 41, assisted on 7 in his past 67 league appearances. Those would be top numbers in any league. I advocated gettng Ince, Doumbia and Son which would have addressed striker andwing while doing so with younger players. We didn`t go that way. I`d love to see Chadli and Lamela up top with Eriksen just in behind, but it will be some time before those players are all up and running at PL speed. Until then, let`s hope players score. I`m just saying that stats over the past few years suggest that Defoe`s goals will not be enough. COYS
peterballb
neymar, I see where you are going with Locadia, but I am nt sold on him. Castaignos, who is a year older, seems far more advanced and has been playing with the big boys for years. Either uld need to come in and play so a striker or two would have to leave. I have liked what litle I have seen of Kane tis season and feel he needs to get time on the pitch as well. Strikers, like keepers, ned o play all the time. Playing one up top greatly limits the amount of playing time available. Personally, I don`t think we will move on as a team until Defoe ad Adebayor are gone. My 2 cents. I also think Leandro is a better buy than Locadia. Lukaku will not happen. Chelsea will see to that. Benteke, for the right price (30M or more) couldwork well too. COYS
peterballb
Peter, If we gong to recruit a striker in January, IMO, we MUST have one that can hit the ground running. Leandro, I think, is one for the future and worth taking on our books. But, as per all previous January windows, we need quality with minimal gelling. Luckily we have enough goal scoring potential in the squad, so we may JUST get away with it this season. COYS!
Critical_Spur
neymar...The plot thickens!!...Were Villa not supposed to be looking at Locadia not too long ago. Looks a powerful type, maybe one for the future.
Cider spurs
Did you guys miss my recent post stating that Damiao looks like he's off to Santos?. Is this the Leandro we are hoping for?.
Cider spurs
Ardone - what u said in your last two sentences perhaps sums up the main reasons why we have not been a force for more than 20 years and certainly part of the reasons why we haven't won the league in over 50. Excellent post fella. Sometimes the hardest part is laying the foundations. But this is never easy (fergie came within one game of getting the sack in 1986 - vs Sheffield Wed). This is when all fans must have vision and support like never before by raising their voices ever louder esp in the most difficult times, in support of each and every player (as well as the manager...and in our case even the. Chairman). But we are spurs fans, and at the first sign of trouble we point fingers and blame. We turn on our own kind...and unfortunately for us history shows that no battle has ever been won when that happens. Keep the faith fellow YIDS...and all riches will come to us.
neymar
If AVB were to play 442 at anytime this season or whatever combination, with 2 up top, I can see Kane doing a good job, pairing with Soldado.
MAN ON!
Cider- yes villa were looking at locadio, but if it was between villa and us, I think he will choose spurs, esp if they struggle to offload benteke
neymar
Leandro at 20, is exactly the player I would love to see at Spurs. A versatile young striker with loads of potential.
MAN ON!
Peter - I know u have been pro costaignos for a long time and he is a great player with lots of experience at his age. either of them will do (jurgen or luke) . And they will come relatively cheaply compared to the likes of damiaio, benteke and lukaku (which I agree the chavs will never sell to us in any case).
neymar
Peter, can you please clarify how you calculate your goals per minutes stats. Do you mean minutes per goal scored? I don't understand how you arrive at 0.6, it's spurious and doesn't make sense as a player would have to score on average just over 45 goals per game to end up with a 0.6 number. Goals per minutes is also flawed as it greatly favours impact players such as Hernandez at ManU, who regularly play low numbers of minutes against tired, stretched defenses. Even if a striker scores a hat trick in 90 minutes, his goals per minutes would be worse than the impact player who scores a goal in the last 5 minutes. Which is the better performance though? The only true fair way to qualify goal scoring stats is by either goals per games, over a statistically significant number of games or minutes per goals ratio again over a statistically significant time period. that's industry standard, I don't understand your figure at all.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Luc not luke
neymar
Leandro Moura...Is this the Leandro you talk of??...He looks a box of tricks, only 20, but also only 5' 9". No doubt he comes with a bit of a hefty price tag, if this is the lad you are indeed talking up, is he much different to what we already have?. I know he drops deep, but that's not much if he is to play a lone striker role.
Cider spurs
Why was there a minute of applause for Nelson Mandela at all football? Bizarre.
5thcolumnist
It is the one…….I'm thinking of someone who's young and for the future of course. How much is hefty? I believe he fits the AVB way also. But I've not seen a lot of him and I'm going mostly by his reputation.
MAN ON!
Cleveland...You star!!...i believe you have just stated that the stats i put up are a fair reflection of one's ability. Cover at least 3-4 seasons as a minimum where possible and include all games started. That's my view on providing goal scoring stats.
Cider spurs
seems there is some healthy dis-agreement on players at the moment...stats tend not cover such things as -will soldado succeed?, Lamela settle?, townsend play well on the left?, Defoe past it? or Ade switch to 'on'? (Levy really doesn't spend new money on players though!)...all we can go on is what we see and how we interpret games and players...and I love that...I'll look at a player and see a star, others will see a clogger, whilst others see a star and I see a fancy dan or one trick pony...what I would like is to hear more people opinions so if you are just reading along...sign up, post your opinion and don't worry about the bickering you sometimes see on here, they love each other really...;)
shedboy2
@Cider, mine too
Cleveland ARTSPURS
MAN ON!...I think he can play anywhere in the final 3rd, which obviously is beneficial. He is one of the "never know what he's going to do next" type players. Easily could be another Oscar or coutinho type. As stated box of tricks and capable of pulling the sublime out of nowhere. trouble being i don't see him as an out and out striker, i may be wrong, limited knowledge in fairness. If he is a player who attacks as a 10 or AM, i feel we have a fair few already who have not really been given a run to see how they perform as of yet.
Cider spurs
In the first few minutes, Defoe was muscled off the ball and that was it. He cannot cope on his own. Doesn't understand offside!!! Defenders just crowd him. End of story. (WHAT IS UP WITH THE TYPING ON THIS SITE>>>RIDICULOUSLY FRUSTRATING!!!!! Get it sorted...keeps missing out letters!!) Just wish Lennon woul soot for once (should red(!) would shoot) for once. He should be scoring 10-12 a season! I often shout "SHOOT" and he passes sideways...so frustrating. What is the matter with him?
wentworth
Cleveland, it's minutes played/90 for number of games and then divided by number of goals. In Defoe's most productive year (I will not say best as his impact sub year was the best I have seen him play) he scored 18 goals in almost 30 games (just under 2700 minutes on the pitch) or .6 goals per 90 minutes. Pav, that same year managed 6 goal in just under 900 minutes (also .6 goals per 90 minutes on the pitch). I contend, it is the only fair way to compare these stats, but is not the only factor. Adebayor did not score as frequently as Defoe when he got 17 goals, but his return of 11 assists and the partnersip ith VDV tips it well in his favour.

I don't see how the number is spurious. When so many on here wer proclaiming Pav a donkey, and I saw things differently, I decided to look at the stats of the two. To me, it seemed we had two average strikers. One who got to play. One who Harry didn't like. I did the stats for their time at Spurs together. Cups, both scored at a rate of about .6 goals per 90 minutes on the pitch. In the league, they both scored at a rate of about .6 goals per 90 minutes. I was astonished how both were perceived so differently while the stats all said they were as productive as each other, yearin and year out. It was not me trying to make an argument. It was just what ws being proffered by so many differed in what I saw and perceived. Stats showed that what I saw was what was happening. Since then I tend to look at those numbers. Last season Bal was our most productive player. Second was Dempsey. Then came Defoe who edged out Sigurdsson by .01 goals/assists per 90 minutes. Despite that, mny on here repeatedly went on about how bad both Dempsey and Sigurdsson were. Offensve players are measred by their production stats. There are anomolies like Modric, but, by and large, the players that are considered top offensive players, contribute the most in goals and assists. Just how it is.

I contend that goals/ssists per minutes played is the fairest way to evluate the contribution of any offensive players. You mention Herandez, but it really doesn't flatter him. 1 goal and 1 assist does not really flatter him. 300 minutes for 2 points has him contributing at a rate of .6 goals/assists per 90 minutes on the pitch. That's an average number. Rooney has 8 goals and 5 assists in 13 appearances. I don't need to do the math. That is an exceptional number. Almost all of the top players are above .75 on a regular basis over their career. Good team or poor team. Defoe has only ever been average. His last 26 apperances show a significant decline from his historic numbers. I don't doubt he will score goals. I just doubt he will ever again attain the heights of .6 goals/assists per 90 minues on the pitch. We need much better than that. That's not bias. That's fact. COYS
peterballb
man on - I thought you meant Damião? not Moura? as in Weverson Leandro Oliveira Moura?- still a pup and I would have thought got for a reasonable price....although prob more than he has shown. I think of Luis Muriel...one minute a the next world star then not so sure...it's difficult at their age...
shedboy2
If that is the case with Leandro then yes we do already have our fair share of AM's.
MAN ON!
wentworth...I have a plan. you "often shout SHOOT" and Lennon passes sideways. Next weekend try shouting "pass sideways"...It may just work.
Cider spurs
shedboy2…I did mean Moura…..That's some name. Now Damiao is something else all together.
MAN ON!
Leandro Dimaio. They wanted 20M GBP, we said no. He will now go for 2.5M plus a player if rumours are to be believed. Was never worth what they asked. He is just prspect ad will take time to settle. Has all the tools, but until you do it,it's just potential. COYS
peterballb
tops- join the queue- it must be my pleasing personality...;)
shedboy2
Players are so subjective - I like jay Rodriguez but he was played out of position or given bad instructions etc when he played for England.I also like Shaw, lallana and Barkley but we've stopped buying British....pierre-michel lasogga looks good to me in Germany...but he might just be a Harry Kane!!
shedboy2
Damiao in part exchange for Defoe + 2.5 M? Sounds fair to me….
MAN ON!
Peter, an example of your data analysis. Say you are a striker, eg Luis Suarez and you play 6 games for 20 minutes each and score twice. Taking your data treatment Luis Suarez would have a goals per minute ratio of 120/90/2=0.67. Average. If Luis Suarez had of scored say 8 goals for the same number of minutes he would have a ratio of 120/90/8=0.17. The number decreases, so
Cleveland ARTSPURS
that's well below average even though Suarez has scored more goals within the same time period. If you apply the more orthodox method of expressing it as goals per gross number of minutes played then in scenario 1 Suarez scores a goal every 60 minutes and in scenario 2 it's every 15 minutes, that makes more sense and accurately reflects the data that is being collected from the pitch. I would be much more comfortable accepting this type of statistical analysis than the one that you presented which obviously does not support your conclusion for all scenarios.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
What's happened, I hope I didn't break the site with my statistical analysis, so sorry if I did.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
I think Baldini/AVB will surprise with a couple signing out of the hat! I wouldn't have trusted Harry to make the right signings, but expect the DoF and our young manager to fine tune appropriately. No doubt Coops will have the ITK flowing to keep us salivating! COYS!
Critical_Spur
Peter we offered 18 and were prepared to go to 22, Villa wanted 25 and it all happened quickly when Villa gave Benteke that deadline, i have no idea why he signed but I do know the above numbers are factual and this did happen. From what I hear the feeling after was a deal might have been done at 23 plus add ons, Levy simply didnt expect Villa/Lambert to play hard ball, I would have thought that was obvious in the way they handled Bent after spending so much, they would have stuck Benteke on the bench all season most likely. Numbers from a THFC board source.
tophobunty1882
Actually I did some numbers and in every scenario the better players should end up with a lower ratio if you apply Peter's analysis. If you are dividing the number of games by a larger number of goals, you end up with a smaller ratio, tending towards zero. Therefore the better players scoring at 0.75 as stated compared to average Defoe at 0.6, makes no sense. As I said, spurious, these are stats based on fact. Using a goals per minute treatment is biased towards players that score from the bench. E.g, if player A scores 2 goals each game over 38 games he will end up with 76 goals in 3420 minutes, or 1 goal every 45 minutes. If player B plays 5 minutes of every match in a season and scores 1 goal each match then he will have scored 38 goals in 190 minutes or 1 goal every 5 minutes. Player A scores twice as many goals as player B but his goals to minutes ratio 9 fold inferior. Which is more vital though, the number of goals by player A or the goals per minute by player B. This treatment is biased as the number of minutes per game can vary by a factor of 90 depending on whether a player plays 1 minute or 90 of the match. Goals per game with a statistically significant sample size is fairer, as players who play over a similar number of seasons will likely have a similar number of games played, if they play regularly, it also will even out with respect to starts or sub appearances. All facts based on stats.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
I think you 'stats guys' are just messing with our heads. A goal is a goal is a goal. That's 3% of saying it one hundred times ... or two gaols a game!
Geofspurs
Defoe in every game he has played in the league this season has had at least one very good chance to score and has failed to convert!! whether of the bench or starting I would think he should have converted at least 1-2 of his chances. Given that he brings little else to the table for the team, that is a pretty c**p return from him this season.
WestStandEnclosure
cleveland, since peter is on a different time zone I thought I would jump in to defend his stats and point out that you are simply doing the calculations wrong. goals per 90 minutes played is a very fair and easy way to compare offensive players. Defoe has on average throughout his career needed 150 minutes playing time to score a goal (thus 0.6 goals per every 90 minutes played), except during the last year where his numbers have fallen considerably. If you take your first hypothetical scenario - suarez scores 2 goals in 120 minutes playing time, that means a ratio of 1.5 goals per 90 minutes ( 1 goal every 60 minutes, 90 divided by 60 = 1.5) second scenario, he scores 8 goals in the 120 minutes playing time, irrespective of how many actual games these minutes span over, that equates to a goal every 15 minutes and a very tasty ratio of 6 goals per 90 minutes played. (90 divided by 15). Again your final examples, player A scores 1 goal per 45 minutes then his ratio is 2 per 90 minutes, player B scores every 5 minutes than his ratio would be a rather far fetched 18 goals per 90 minutes played, nine times better, not worse. Of course the stats don’t tell the whole story but they are still very revealing. 0.6 per 90 isn't great, especially when goals is all you bring to the table, but unfortunately defoe hasn't even been hitting those numbers for a while now.
Guernman
Just adding to the above, 120/90/2 = 0.67 This is actually the amount of the game played per goal scored. So 0.67 means that a player has to play 67% of a match before scoring a goal. This is why the player who scores 8 goals in the same number of minutes has a lower "score". 0.17 meaning he only has to play 17% of the match before scoring
In-spurs-ational
Peter we also offered Barca Bale in exchange for Messi, plus a bacon bap.
Tophonumpty
8 out of 10 cats said……… "where's the other 2 gone to?"
MAN ON!
Geurnman, his treatment of the stats and data sets is incorrect. 1) he states it as goals per minutes, however in his calculation he divides by 90, which means it now becomes goals per game. By doing that he is converging games into partials, and not treating each game as a single data set. This skews the results and is wrong. Secondly he stated above that the better players will score at around 0.75 and average ones at 0.6. That is fundamentally wrong if you apply his model, as if you divide by goals then the more goals a player scores the lower his goals per minute ratio will be. His conclusion does not fit his data set. The examples above I used are mathematically correct, and illustrate clearly the problem with using goals per minute and saying that it is fair, especially for small data sets. The second scenario with player A,B highlights it exactly as you said and highlights my point clearly. Player B has a higher goals to minutes ratio but scores half the number of goals as player A over the course of the season, which is more important to the team in the long run? JD has scored over his entire career, i.e career stats of 1 goal per 2.79 games, depending on the numbers used it may be as low as 2.49. Industry standard is that good players score a goal every two games, exceptional ones more frequently, therefore JD's stats are not bad, probably better than average, and deserve more respect. Geurnman read his post to me the long one, (well one of the long ones) it's minutes/90/goals, not 90/minutes/goals. The whole problem with Peter is that he refuses to see the bias in his opinions and uses biased stats to base an argument and state as fact. Another example, he said above that Siggi had played 700 minutes of football this season and scored 6 whilst JD has played 720 minutes and scored 0, no context. I checked the minutes for each player and low and behold Siggi has played a little under 700 minutes (not including time added on), with 7 starts and 3 goals, and JD has played a little under 400 minutes with 3 starts no goals. The fact that this is both incorrect and is such a pitifully small data set seems lost on Peter. He fails to take into account that Siggi has over twice as many starts as JD and just over half the minutes. The data sets are therefore incomparable. Why don't we compare them over the whole of last season, Siggi got 3 goals in 33 apps, and JD something like 13 in about 35 apps. He also just cherry picks runs of games to suit his argument e.g., the 1 in 26. He stated above that it's about comparing the here and now, so why does he include the run up until December last year when JD conveniently stops scoring in the PL. He has also hardly ever mentioned JD's EL or CC goals, even though he says he does. The reality of it is I think that everybody on this site knows what JD brings, we've all watched him long enough, we don't need somebody bombarding us with stats every day to tell us what we already know. JD is decent, he's had a decent career in the PL, he's coming towards the end of his career now, and won't improve further, we all know that. He can still do a decent job for us as 3rd choice, impact, EL, CC striker if he wants, that's clear to me. First choice striker, yes we need better, we all know that, but who can we get. Over the last few seasons we've had no shortage of takers, from Frasier Campbell all the way to Soldado, nobody has really done it except for Ade on loan. We can't buy the top strikers, so we will keep getting players like JD or we have to develop our own. Using BS stats just reduces the credibility of the argument, I would rather a person just say that they don't like the player, at least we know where they then stand. I've wasted enough of my life on this now, so it's over and out, hopefully people will now be able to more clearly see the bias in the stats presented regularly on this site.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
In-Spurs- That's correct, but not how Peter presents his stats. It's simpler if you divide total gross number of minutes by goals scored. You will then end up with average number of minutes required per goals, across the whole data set used. i.e. say 1 in 100 minutes. That is the industry standard.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Correction in the post to Guerman. Peter said Siggi played 700 minutes and scored 3, not 6
Cleveland ARTSPURS
I am afraid that I disagree, defoe's stats used to be okay, but not great considering he only brings goals, and even that is misleading because his presence is often detrimental to his teammates, he has never forged any potent partnership with another striker because he is selfish to a worrying degree, his assists stats are negligible, his chance conversion extremely poor, if you tallied how many decent attacks he has wasted either through shooting when he should pass, being offside or simply not reading the pass then this somewhat taints the fact that he will score with every 10th attempt. He has improved elements of his game under AVB, but his scoring stats have dropped off considerably. however you want to calculate the stats, the same patterns emerge, siggy has been more effective as a goal scorer in the PL than defoe during the last 12 months, as has dempsey (still) . defoe has scored 1 premier league goal in his last 26 appearances or thereabouts. it is simply not good enough. soldado has been more effective not just because he has scored more (penalties do count, and defoe's penalty record is not the best either) but soldado is much better at reading the game and more inclined to bring others into it. Soldado was dropped primarily to give him a kick up the butt while it also serves to give defoe some game time to keep him happy enough to stick around as an impact sub (his best role and one where he can be useful), soldado was not dropped because there is any chance that defoe will take his place as number 1. soldado will be back against liverpool
Guernman
Sorry Geurnman, I disagree with you, your starting to use the same 1 in 26 hyperbole. Defoe scored 13 goals in 35 apps last season or thereabouts, Siggi got 3 in 33. That is a fair comparison over a season, Siggi is just as average as Defoe and it's debatable whether he offers more. The point of this discussion is about the presentation of biased stats. I give examples to show that the stats presented by some are clearly biased, that's unquestionable. Like I said above, if JD is so bad how is it that he has 1 goal every 2.79 games across a career spanning over 500 appearances? That is his goal scoring stat, and anything under 1 in 3 is decent. If you want to give an opinion then fine no problem, if you want to present stats to highlight your opinion, again fine, no problem, if you want to state as fact based on stats, then the stats have to be water tight, which is virtually impossible when comparing footballers, anything else lacks credibility and you render yourself open to criticism. JD should be 3rd choice, but he is in because neither Soldado nor Ade are performing. Not JD's fault that he finds himself no 1. Soldado has 6 goals in 15, even with his 3 free shots on goal. JD has 9 goals in 19 = JD has scored more this season than Soldado and is currently outperforming him. Soldado may be in for L'pool, lets hope he performs, as I won't then have to hear JD has scored 1 goal in 27 games, he's not good enough etc etc etc. Just checked last seasons's stats. JD 15 goals in 43 apps in all comps, Siggi 7 goals in 48, Dempsey, 12 goals in 43. Looks like JD outscored both Dempsey and Siggi. Seasons don't run over calender years. In addition, Gareth Bale made 33 apps in the league last season and scored 21 goals. It therefore seems that JD's presence hardly stifled his scoring prowess. Like I said, none of the hyperbole regarding JD is in any way quantifiable, it's biased and prejudiced, his career stats speak for themselves.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
 

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