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Where is the Glory?

I ask the question because of the number of people who trot out that famous phrase of Danny Blanchflower's' the game is about glory' as if somehow justifies what we are doing.

I can't see any glory in what is happening so I ask the question; where is the glory in losing? Where is the glory in grinding out meaningless campaigns in the Europa which almost inevitably end in ignominy for English clubs against fresher teams from weaker leagues while the top teams play in the champions league?

Where is the glory in watching players with some ability but no heart or commitment fail to deliver? Where is the glory in the in the merry go round of managers, hired and fired so quickly they can never build a team?

Where is the glory where buying and selling players seems to have become an end in itself and far more important than getting the best out of what we already have? If someone can explain where the glory is, please explain, because I can't see it and I suspect Danny wouldn't have either.

Written by jod




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The journalist

Writer: jod Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Monday March 17 2014

Time: 3:37PM

Your Comments

The glory is under wraps awaiting a manager who can stand against Levy interfering, by wining games, in the style expected at WHL.
Block D Spurs
Secondly.. a manager who has the respect of the players..
Block D Spurs
We are in limbo.. lost too many points, very badly, morale all time low, need a lift for everyone.. A big name manager who has the record of top level Euro Clubs, and wining CL, La Liga, Serie A, World Club Championship.. Even World Cup. Then we will see the Glory Days back at WHL. It is the same old story.. wining game gives confidence, playing Euro Games and Prem League each week will only be negative if we loose too many. Man Utd , Chavs, been doing this for years.. Players can do it, with rotation and squad management and tactical awareness per game. Need Owner, manager, players fans to all be on the same page..
Block D Spurs
The Glory has been left to collect dust somewhere, in a dark corridor of WHL, that has not been seen since August 1974..
MAN ON!
Agree there is no glory in the cup at present, no "spurs way" of playing football, thats because football has become secondary to the business, There is nothing wrong with winning the EL as at least it means players/club/coaches are experiencing different ways of playing/tactics/set ups and mental ability, I think a number of you have said that you dont want to play in the EL, for me that just shows a lack of ambition, or its CL or nothing, well at our current rate we will have nothing then I guess you will be happy.
totuae
cup, should read club !
totuae
Unfortuneately the glory is where the money is, football has been ruined and this is only going to get worse. by 2020 we'll have a Euro super league and then the maney bags will pull out of the premier league. We then have a chance of winning the league albeit with out Chelsea, City, United, Arsenal/Liverpool in it.,
yiddyboy
Maybe just maybe we could be a lot closer to the top 4 this season if we applied ourselves every game like we did yesterday, the pace and closing down was much better, shame we lack real guile, cohesion and telepathy as a attacking force!
spurfect one
The sooner us (the fans) realize that what we want is no longer important, balance sheets come first at Spurs.

LEVY OUT
yiddyboy
Our season has gone, should have stuck with AVB but our audience and Talksport rent a quote commentators had it in for him! To replace AVB by an U21 coach untried as a manager was a high risk. I hope David Pleat advise was not asked, and who decided that Ian Broomfield should return as a chief scout! Who did he find when here or at QPR. Saha, Nelsen and Samba for QPR. If Danny Rose or the next LB concentrated on defence and not getting caught out so far forward we would not loose so many goals. Surely TS could arrange that or sub him if he is caught out of position. If Southampton beat us then we should consider Pochettino as our next manager!
camper
Where is the Glory? ‘I play for the money. Football’s not my passion’ Benoit Assou-Ekotto; Football was once a game that was based on passion, the players were all about the game, that’s all they cared about. It was a beautiful sight to see, when winning and losing mattered more than the money. When if you weren’t passionate about the game, you weren’t a true footballer and fan of the game. However, that’s all gone out the window in the past decade. Now, it’s a club’s dream that some billionaire (or millionaire) comes up and wants to invest in the club. He becomes the owner and splashes money left, right and center in order to take a team (no matter how good or bad) to the top. Manchester City once a struggling old 3rd division side, now look at them, Tan want's a foot in the door buys Cardiff, who once played in Blue, only to change the clubs colours to Red, An almost innumerable amount of money has been put into football since 2003 and it’s that year that Roman Abramovich took over Chelsea Football Club, that could have been us? ££££££ not the glory.
spu 4 life
Block D Spurs - 'morale all time low' - is that a joke?! I've only been a Spurs fan for 28 years, but even I can remember morale lower than this! I feel the reason we're 'underperforming' is because of 'fans' like this. Look at it objectively, and you'll see we're not underperforming at all, we are right where a team of our (current) stature should be. The year we did get top 4, we only did so because City changed manager half way through the season, if they'd have had the whole season with Mancini, they might just have pipped us to it. I think a lot of Spurs 'fans' just need to accept that we're not a top 4 club, no matter how much we might want to be! We don't have the financial muscle to compete with Chelsea, Arsenal or City...and we're still behind United in terms of attracting the 'big' players...Okay, I'll give you, I think we should have been closer to Liverpool this year, I think they're having a much better season than anyone could have envisaged, and I think we're having a slightly worse one. But when you consider all things, ground size, sponsorship deals, match day revenue, the ability to attract TOP players....unfortunately, we're behind too many. We only have to go back 10 years, to find us constantly finishing mid table, and with much worse players to choose from than we have now. Like him or loathe him, and personally, I'm somewhere in between, the current chairman has progressed our club massively. I don't see a new manager changing the league standing that much, unless he is given 5 years to see out what he is allowed to start. Whether or not there is any glory in our game currently - well there isn't, and there hasn't been since 2008 - I'm not having finishing 4th as 'glory', or beating both Milan sides in UCL - Glory is winning things, and we're not the only ones who dictate that. I doubt that we will see league glory for 20 years minimum, regardless of who is in charge, that's not pessimism, it's just being realistic
King26
The day that THFC became a professional football club is the day that it started being a business and caring about the balance sheets. In the early 90's, with the formation of the PL and, BSkyB's involvement, football lost it's soul, and Spurs, along with the rest of the professional football world, became a greedy whore of a financial institution. The spirit and the 'glory' of the game and, sport in general, faded into oblivion.
MAN ON!
totuae - Because missing out on the europa really hurt Liverpool this season ?
jod
lol king26 so who is that "fans" like this? I wake up thinking damn Spurs are just soooo avg... it's like watching a porno thinking one day I'll have a dick that big?
Mix26
are those or something along those lines... jod I see u are still fixated on the EL, dont stress son u can celebrate on thursday after we bow out in true Dim spirit...
Mix26
Lol! You certainly have a way of saying things!
Durbanspur
That's you Mix!
Durbanspur
Mix26 - No I can't, we will repeat the whole sorry process next year. While Liverpool enjoy the champions league.
jod
King - with respect you are a defeatist...we did actually qualify for the CL...we have actually been top4 twice recently...but our board let us down...where is the glory in spending all our revenues on a stadium instead of the team? (a stadium we'll struggle to sell out and won't pay for itself for a generation and even then won't propel us any further up the food chain), in selling our best players? In only using re-cycled money for new transfers? pocketing 35m in transfer profit over the last 3 years? where is this massive progression at our club?....but I think your 20 years plus estimate on glory (if ever again) is about right if we stick with the ENIC charlatans...Like it or not top4 leads to greater revenue through exposure, TV and commercial revenue IF that revenue is used to build on the team then glory draws ever closer....
shedboy2
Mix26 - fans like this, referred to the flippant 'morale is at an all time low' comment higher up the thread...if he/she had have supported our club for 10 years or more, they would know that comment is ridiculous. Morale is not at an all time low,. but expectancy must be close to an all time high! People who have probably been following us for 5 years, actually believe we're a top side - we're not! SebastiaShort - I could not agree with you any more!
King26
What Block D said.

Jod, Missing out o Europa hurts us far more than Liverpool. They have more resources because they have far greater international revenue because of their past successes. We cannot get there without Europe. Of course CL is better. But, if not in CL, we hd better be in Europe or Spurs fall out of the international conversation. We get less TV coverage, less sponsorship money. the list goes on. Those paltry quid make all the difference in the world to our squad. Liverpool do not have a squad that can compete on four fronts. They will have to buy players and hope to avoid losing Suarez and avoid injuries to key players. Otherwise, they will drop right back out and be back where they tarted. As I see it, we will not be in Europe next season, we will lose 4-6 of our top players. We will have no reason to replace because our squad will be bloated with players that are not good enough to qualify for CL. As the season goes on, more players will leave because they will not be playing and we will regress to mid-table. No worries though, a starting XI of Friedel, Naughton, Dawson, Hall, Rose, Bentaleb, Carroll, Lennon, Townsend, Kane and Coulthirst will no doubt get some points. Perfect squad for Tim Sherwood in Division One. COYS
peterballb
"Glory Days".....Back to Basics....ie...Getting the "Spine" of the 25 man squad, correctly balanced, at the start of the season. IE....it's a MUst...have 5 centrebacks and 4 top strikers. I'm happy with Tim and co'......my advice would be as above...and Lose ...Walker / Lennon / Sigurdsson ....and a few old fringe players,...plus add another Goalkeeper / Centreback and 2 top strikers.....to the 25 man squad, for next season. Just my opinion.
82spursdebut
King26 - surely you've noted that we have shot ourselves in the foot quite often these past few years with some of the decisions taken by DL et al mystifying - this shoot from the hip policy is not professional at all!
Durbanspur
Glory, glory Tottenham Hotspur those were the days. Shame so many of you will never see it. ............................................. Money is the root of all evil!!! Especially in sport. As it no longer retains a sportsmans attitude to playing. ..... When there are such ludicrous wages as £300,000 PER WEEK then sport isn't involved. We should all remember Jimmy Hill and his campaign to scrap maximum wage or wage cap as it was known. He started what we now see. All this tosh about the players only have a short career. How many of us fans will earn in a LIFETIME what Rooney et al will earn in ONE YEAR?
longtimespur
For a long time we haven't had the leader of someone who will grab a game and hump it into submission. Everyone in our current team looks like there waiting for someone else to produce something rather than taking the initiative themselves. Bale was 'the man' last year, this year non of the new lot have really stepped up to the plate. You want someone bossing the team and leading by example. Gerrard type for example.
coys1717
longtimespur.. Agreed.
MAN ON!
Durbanspur - don't get me wrong, I'm not for a second suggesting that DL is without faults, however, like him or loathe him, he's taken our club on massively from where we were before. I don't get people saying 'Levy out'... he's not a player, you can't just go out and replace a chairman!!! I'd love for a multi billionaire owner to come in and invest 600 million on new players! But I don't see them queuing up for that! Its better the devil we know for me right now with regards DL
King26
Lol durbs mate it was tongue in cheek... I just summed up his post in one line... I have a dream (not like a Martin dream and all that) that we will compete for the title in the not so distant future. The PL is tough but there is no guarantee for any teams anymore. Has Liverpools squad dramatically improved or do they have a really good manager? Which brings me to jod, with Dim in charge we wont be in Europe ever again mate...
Mix26
Mix26 - apologies - I thought you were asking a serious question! lol. Your dream sounds magnificent, and may I say, one we share. Fantasy beats reality, hey?!
King26
longtimespur, I agree with you, except the bit about Jimmy Hill. The players at that time were unfairly waged apart from a handful of top stars. It then, year on year, got way out of control.
MAN ON!
lets see how the bindippers do in the CL next year jod, lack of playing in a euro comp will have an affect, and I guess if we make CL next season we should hope not to make it the following year so we can "consolidate" again
totuae
Just wish to add...that Rooney is paid a stupid amount of money.....due to Man.utd...using his Face all over Asia / China...etc.
82spursdebut
No amount of wishing will bring back the past, how I desperately wish that we're possible but it seems like (to me anyway) that we have also lost the football brains trust that this club ALWAYS had!
Durbanspur
peterballb - Liverpool in 2012/13 had about £240m in income, we had £172m. Useful but it still only got them into 5th place compared to our sixth. Champions League money will increase that gap to £100m+, so I guess they will be able to strengthen the squad. Revenue from europa is so low even the chairman of Stoke dismissed it when his club qualified. What worries me is you seem to think that people around the world actually care who wins the europa league, they really don't. All that matters is relegation, the title and top four. All other league positions are meaningless but the number of games in a season matters. Liverpool got it right, we keep getting it wrong.
jod
King26, you are correct that expectations have never been higher,. and I agree that they are way out of whack with where we should expect to be. We have the 6th best resources in the PL, and more importantly, are way behind the resources of both Liverpool and Arsenal. Every season we finish above 6th is because we have done well, and others who have better resources have done poorly. That said, I do not agree that we do not have the squad to compete and while my minimal expectation this season was 5th and qualification for Europa by table position, I expected that next season we would be a CL squad. That is all based on the quality of players we have in Lloris, Sandro, Vertonghen, Dembele and others. These are not chumps. They are all players who have the talent to be part of a top squad. The players remain (for now) but the plan they were all sold on has been thrown in the trash and replaced with a wholly different agenda (I will not call it a plan because there does not appear to be anything even resembling a thought, let alone a plan). Why should the players remain? Beyond contract, I cannot put forth a single argument that flies. Further, whether allowing AVB to leave was the right move or not, replacing him with someone who was a totally different type of person, with totally different formation and personnel ideas was lunacy. Honestly, there is nothing in place for the 15 players brought in for AVB to buy in to. They are all looking at their options. Vertonghen is already gone. Adebayor will not play for the pittance he will receive next season. There is shockingly interest from top clubs for Walker. Capoue and Sandro are coveted throughout Italy. Lloris is wanted by the richie rich's of France. Soldado, Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela, Chiriches all feel ripped off. Failing some brilliant stroke before April with the appointment of a manager that commands respect and is a proven winner, I see this going sideways in record fashion. Good news is we'll have lots of money. Our top players will fetch decent money. There will be no one of value coming in to play for Sherwood or in this managerial circus. We still have not spent the extra 30M of TV revenues. That money will not be spent next year either. Wages will be greatly reduced as will the quality of the squad. Good time for ENIC to sell? Not until the stadium is built. More of the same to come. COYS
peterballb
Just wish to add.....that someone said to me, that 6th may get you into the Europa cup, next season. Cannot remember ..the reason given.
82spursdebut
as I said Jod you are looking at the money its no longer about the football, you wont find the glory on a balance sheet mate are you Levy's new apprentice ?
totuae
totuae - You really don't get how it works do you ? Playing every second year in the champions league would earn you many times the revenue of playing every year in the europa. It would also give you a higher profile. Not onlythat but you would have a light season every second year. You don't seem to understand that our whole sorry grind through this years europa has earned us lees and given us lees exposure than Liverpool will get just for qualifying for next years champions league, they don't actually have to make it out of the group stage.
jod
All this talk of Liverpool etc; I think, is a bit premature. They may not finish above 5th place. They can of course, but it's not odds on. It's tight at the top!
MAN ON!
Peterballb.....we feel your fears.........But, most of those players mentioned, are under contract to THFC.....thus, they won't be gong anywhere, unless THFC agree.
82spursdebut
A word that i have never used or needed to not like crap it gets used all the time in my walk of life as the theme goes c c c c Tottenham hotspur. As a kid it was gggg th but after 35 years i stopped kidding myself.maybe one day we will get to sing it in the new stadium if its ever built.levy and enic f. Off
bazdog
Jod, Liverpool will have to improve the size of their squad, and if they hope to compete on four fronts, in quality a well. Their turnover was 169M GBP in the most recently reported financials down from 184M the year prior. They lost 41M GBP down from 49M GBP. Last season will also come in as a huge loss. Yes, CL will get them increased revenues. 20-50M depending on how far they go. Their wages, 2 seasons ago were 70% of turnover. That has gotten way worse. Suarez is now on over 10M per season. Will they even be close to conforming with FFPR? I guess it doesn't matter if the rules don't matter, but the business will not be made profitable by having CL. They need repeated CL, reduced wages, a larger ground, just to make ends meet. It will be going the other way. Their expenses wll far outstrip their revenues. Their Net Debt was 87M GBP. I expect that to be substantially worse. Our debt was 70M. I'll be interested to see the spread when the numbers come out in late April, early May.

I do not believe CL is the be all and end all. Will Liverpool make more in CL revenue than the improved salaries, bonuses and transfer costs will cost them? I doubt it. They'll still be running large losses. COYS
peterballb
How much is Suarez on?
MAN ON!
peterballb - Why are you assuming they need to compete on four fronts ? as long as they maintain a top four finish each season, Arsenal style, they get keep gettin the champions league revenue. If we keep knocking ourselves out in europa campaigns that becomes a bit easier.
jod
82spursdebut, so were Berbatov, Keane, Carrick, Modric, Bale and so on. Yes, we can refuse to sell, they can refuse to play. It will be a case of quickly diminishing returns. there will be profit to make. They will refuse to play. Levy will sell as it is the only logical conclusion. We can not and will not match the wages others will pay them. The contracts mean no more than the paper they are written on. When Adebayor refuses to play next season for less than 150k/week what will we do? Pay him? No, we'll sell him orhe'll play at 75% and walk for free at season's end. Lose, lose. Look what United had to give Rooney to get him to agree to stay. We don't have those resources. Ultimately, nowadays, if suitors are out there who will meet or exceed valuations, clubs sell. That goes for all clubs. COYS
peterballb
How does an increase in revenue from continual CL participation equate to Glory? After all, Arsenal have yet to win it after all these years and, like us, end up selling their best players, who have left, in search of CL success and more money elsewhere.
MAN ON!
Over 200k/week is what I have read. Less than Bale is now on and more than Gerrard who makes a decent penny. He is, last I saw,in the top 5 EPL salaried players. Rooney is 300k/week GBP, Van Persie 250k/week, Toure 240k/week, Aguero 225k/week, Suarez 220k/week. There were lots of articles about the amounts after Suarez re-upped in December and Rooney in February. COYS
peterballb
MAN ON! - Still, qualifying for the champions league every year for god knows how many years could be useful for, say, paying for a new stadium ?
jod
Peterballb......unlikely scenario....that many will go on strike...or be sold. BUT....some of those players mentioned...are Not as good as they think they are....judged on recent events. Thus, rebuilding or adjusting the squad....may be exactly what is required. Winning gets you exposure.....exposure gets you the big Bucks. That's my simple way of saying.....winning anything...is a good thing....if managed correctly.
82spursdebut
Jod Trust me I get it, what I am saying is I dont agree with it, any european exposure is better than no exposure, we should look for Glory wherever it maybe, and play some form of euro competition every year. I take it if we beat Benfica you will go into mourning and should we actually win the trophy you wont be supporting the mighty spurs anymore ?
totuae
Yes, but that still has nothing to do with this abstract concept of glory. I'm not knocking you for your article but I just don't get the fixation with the CL. Winning the FA cup in style is glorious enough for me, if nothing else.
MAN ON!
... Or the EL of course.
MAN ON!
Damn I would take the careless cup at the moment
totuae
If, against the odds, we make a fantastic comeback against Benfica on thursday, and win. That to me would be glorious and indeed, the essence of what football should be about. Likewise our efforts in the CL, even though we were knocked out.
MAN ON!
Danny Blanchflower was in one of the best teams in the country. We are NOT one of the best teams in the country now. To answer the question: "where is the glory?", I suggest you ask York and Plymouth Argyle fans. What keeps them ticking...? They are not likely to win anything. So what is the point? For me, some fans are moaning too much. Why? Manager turnover: same as 95% of the clubs out there. Levy: no worse than 95% of the owners out there. Results? BETTER than 75% of the EPL. Points? Virtually on par with last season was a record since EPL began. Sherwood? Better points per game record than AVB, and as good as Harry. Squad? Better than 75% of EPL. Better than last year - just missing some of the character that we shed in our over exuberance in clearing out so-called dead-wood. Is something missing? SURE, yes there is. But it takes TIME. I respect Liverpool fans in how they accepted that it takes time. Look at them now. Their patience has paid off. We go record points and still moaning.... Liverpool fans were finishing a far lower than they were used to, and had to be patient there. We are finishing in the same place as before and are impatient! As far as I am concerned, when you are finishing as high as you ever have in recent years, just maintaining it is an improvement. If you think that the soul is not in the team right now, then blame AVB for that. You CAN blame Levy for AVB's appointment (I do), as I thought that it was wrong from the start. But I do not blame the whole thing on Levy, as he is relying on people to do their jobs, and they are not delivering. I am not blame Sherwood, because he has done well overall in the league (disappointing in the cups, yes), and if he bounces back from this slump, then he will have done a good job. At the end of the day, Sherwood has got to live with the poor group of signings - ALL signed from abroad and ALL had to adjust. Not good management of funds there.
TonyRich
jod, I don`t assume that. I assume, that in all seasons injuries play their roles. That there will still be 6 or 7 teams with a chance at CL, and that it is impossible to do that with a small squad. They will need more players. Their defenders are aging, Gerrard is no longer able to play a full schedule and so on. That will all cost money because you can`t bring in just anyone to assure you of top 4. Sturridge and others will be asking for more money. All of the CL Bonuses kick in. It is not the panacea people make it out to be. If you can do it regularly, you can make a go of it. Arsenal sell their best players. They are in there every year. Their salaries are huge for what they earn. Last reports had Arsenal at 143M in salaries, Liverpool at 119M and us at 90M. They have added considerable salary since then and will need to add more. They were already at 70% of turnover which is very high. That number is likely to be much worse.

Just as Liverpool has no guarantee of top 4, nor do we. Being out of Europe means we can not justify a squad of 25 top players. You need it for Europe, but not for the domestic cups. Small squads have a tendency to not qualify for Europe because they cannot cover off injuries. That was always our issue under Jol. The drop off between the quality of the starter versus the sub is dramatic. It's why Everton can't compete. It's why runs inEurope kill teams like Birmingham, Fulham, Wigan etc because they do not have the resources to have a squad good enough to have a go. We do have those resources. We just won't be able to spend it if we have three competitions. Who will want to com? Would Modric have signed if we were not in Europe? Lloris? Dembele? We will not have anything, other than money, to offer players, if we are not in Europe. COYS
peterballb
TonyRich, a very good post and I agree on all of it.
MAN ON!
totuae - As I tried to say before the result of a single tie against Benifica doesn't really concern me, its the effect of the campaign as a whole on this season and the effect a similar campaign will have next season that worries me. If you seriously think we are going to win the trophy, regardles of what happens in Portugal you have gone beyond optimism into delusion.
jod
Peterb well done - taking the centre stage again with some sense!!!

Glory to me is winning competitions with style and effort
whilst winning games with style and effort is setting a trend
and just winning is getting the habit.

Losing in ANY form has NO glory attached!!!
Certainly felt the glory in 1981 and 1991!

To me the BPL/EPL died the day Chelski was taken over by the Roman and exacerbated by 300k/week by the not so world class Rooney

King26 - think Ledley would be the complete opposite to your thinking!!!

Highgatespur
peterballb - You use the term "Europe" to cover both competitions, which of course is the problem. To maintain a large enough squad for the champions league on europa money is not possible. Since Man City were able to recruit without any problems before winning anything the logical inference is that players are motivated not by European football but by money.
jod
82spursdebut, what can we hope to win without players and managers good enough to beat the top teams? Out of Europe, there is no way in Hades we attract any players beyond those that need a lot of developing or those not good enough for top clubs and looking for a last big paycheque. Winning the League Cup is a big deal, but to suggest that that brings with it any international money is ridiculous. Even the FA Cup is no longer the international draw that it was when I was a kid. Europa League gets exposure on an international scale. Sponsors like that. So do kit suppliers. The EPL is international. If you are only playing in England, you have little chance of capturing the hearts and minds of those elsewhere. Spurs will see their international TV coverage decrease. I don't know how many new Cardiff fans there are in Hong Kong. What of Wigan? Where are they as a result of their cup runs? Birmingham?

To me, there is no such thing as a tin cup competition. We should be competing in all of them and trying to win them all. I frankly do not understand the thought process that suggests that one can go from not being in Europe to being a year in year out CL team. Where is the evidence that one can do that without the assistance of a sugar daddy? It just doesn't work that way. COYS
peterballb
I am a spurs fan delusion has been my life for 44 years Jod ! if you think that the EL has had an effect on our season then you are watching a different team to me, we have been mostly poor in all games we have played including when there was no EL taking place, and as for winning it, it aint over till its over (damn close though)
totuae
jod, I think your article should be titled: Where is the Money?
MAN ON!
totuae - Wewon the old EUFA cup in 1984, since then only two English teams have won what became the europa league. So I have good reason to doubt our chances. You can't actually prove a negative, there is no way of knowing what effect the reduction in matches would have had on our season. All I can do is look at Liverpool, less matches and more points.
jod
peterballb - Its not how many competitions you try and win, its how many you actually win. There seems to be a lot of people who have a widly optimistic view of how much notice the wider world takes of the europa.
jod
How many English teams have won the CL?
MAN ON!
That's because both competitions receive world-wide coverage. Every Europa Spurs game has been available on most cable sports packages n North America. Same packages that broadcast the CL. There is a huge difference in potential revenues, but then players in CL cost more money. We have revenues that equate with Europa League. That's fact. We do not have the resources to pay elite CL players, whether we have the extra CL money or not. Again, that is a fact. As for City, or Chelsea before them, or PSG or Monaco, the players are motivated by monies no one else will pay. Their average salaries exceed our highest player's salary. That will continue to be the case whether we are in CL or just playing domestically. What I am saying is we need to build organically. If we do not have a squad that is large enough and good enough and a manager that can rotate and compete on four fronts, we have no business thinking about CL. That is what is needed to compete on that level. As there are 6 or 7 teams that have the resources and players to lay claim to a chance at a top 4 place, you acn not assume you will get CL and thus spend the money as if you have the revenues. Chelsea and City skew reality because their money is Monopoly money. Without their sugardaddies financing all of the losses, it is not a business model that will ever succeed. If FFPR have any teeth, teams are only allowed to spend 5% more than what their football related turnover was. So, teams should not be allowed to have net transfer losses of 100M as both Monaco and PSG did. We'll see what happens. I see no way they, or Madrid or Barca can be considered in line with FFPR. Will any of them be disqualified fro Europe? I doubt it. But we'll see. Since the advent of the PL and the CL, I cannot see success being done instantly without the aid of Monopoly money. Be in Europe every year. Be in the mix for CL every season and eventually you can climb the slope. Stadium, international revenues, namin rights will all help. But ultimately, we need to start winning cups. We need to capture the hearts and mids of people around the globe. That's the only sustainable fix. COYS
peterballb
Man On! Three ? Manure twice Chelski once ?
Highgatespur
Liverpool are where they are because Suarez was willing to stay. Without him, they would not have been able to sustain this an more than Everton could. They have a World Class player who scores goals for fun. We do not. Had Liverpool been offered 86M for Suarez and were Suarez offered the 250/week that Bale was reportedly offered, plus endorsements etc, he too would have been gone. RM wanted and got Bale. If they want Suarez next season because they will be selling Ronaldo back to United, he will be gone too and Liverpool will drop back. COYS
peterballb
Highgatespur... Even when we look at the old European cup as well, I think only 5 or 6 English teams have one either of the comps. Celtic did, if we include Scottish clubs.
MAN ON!
Liverpool won the old European cup 5 times!
MAN ON!
jod, television companies will show what the advertisers will pay for. Advertisers will pay if people watch. There are no free rides. If the games are televised (you can pick up feeds from the Middle East, India, Australia, North America and South America) there are people watching. It's not state run tele. Here's what I can say for sure, the early rounds of the League Cup and FA Cup receive little to no TV coverage at all. Other than the fans of the two respective clubs, nobody cares. I am not saying the competitions mean nothing. They just mean nothing to advertisers. FA Cup is exclusively on a Premium Television channel here. Only the "favourite clubs" (we are not one of them) get coverage. We received TV coverage because we played Arsenal. Had we been playing Leeds the game would not have been televised. What I am saying is there is no money or exposure in the League and FA Cup. There is in Europa. There can be glory in all of them and they should all matter every year. COYS
peterballb
man on! continual participation in CL allows you to attract and retain the better players(as long as you reinvest)...no one as far as I can see said that equates to glory....I did say if a team keeps doing that glory will draw closer....But you use Arsenal as an example...the one team that HASN'T done that, they used the CL to pay off their stadium and kept selling their best players...now the stadium is paid off we'll see if they get closer to some glory....I hope not but if you keep buying and retaining the best players (and managers) then yes glory is more likely (ie draws closer)...it helps to have the better players if you want to win the FA cup or league cup in style as well...
shedboy2
MAN ON! and that is why they continue to have greater international revenues. Those glories meant something and created new fans. I never liked Liverpool but I loved watching Grobelaar. I was already a Spurs fan so it mattered not. For others in North America in the 70's and 80's they saw lots of Liverpool and United. The last few years Spurs has been televised a lot in North America and, if memory serves, Spurs, just last season were the team with the fastest growing level of support in North America which culminated with a huge Times Square Gareth Bale Under Armour Ad. It's all based on exposure. We have been exciting to watch in Europe over the past 6 seasons. If we're not in it, we will not be watched. COYS
peterballb
shedboy2. I know, that's fair enough. I wasn't aiming it at anyone in particular. I just wanted to point out that 'Glory' is not the same as finance and one does not necessarily follow the other.
MAN ON!
peterballb... and it's Bale's performances in the CL that made him the big pin-up he is now and what was, in turn, the big factor in his enormous fee.
MAN ON!
Until Suarez scores a hat trick in the CL, (or similar feat), against a top opponent, he will not be worth the same as Bale.
MAN ON!
King 26, good post, I agree with quite a bit of it, but we have made some major errors as a club since our CL season. MAN ON good post (your first one), and longtimespur as well. I would also say that the Bosman ruling hasn't helped, even though it was designed to bring some sort of financial security for lower league players. It's been abused and needs reforming. TR excellent post as always.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
King26..what planet you living on?? Our players have lost confidence in TS, Levy / THFC. The 7 players that came in.. IMO..5 are on way out at the moment. They were sold the dream / idea of Bale staying, AVB plans.. I really hope Sherwood is replaced asap, with new manager (LVG) and announced before world cup. As for your comment "fans like this" i have been a spurs fan since the sixties, (as young lad then and as coopsie would say.. an old barsteward now :-) I have been standing on the Shelf Lower East Stand many years, cheering Glen Hoddle etc. witnessed ownership by Irving Scholar, relegation in the 70's then 80's glory days of Keith Burkenshaw.. then ownership by Alan Sugar, some glory by EL Tel and now ENIC and Daniel Levy. So Don't try and be clever, with your comments.

After all these years I have been a typical fan, hoping against hope we will win the title soon, win FA Cup..beat arsenal every time, dislike the spammers.. chavs.. So I would say I have every right to expect Spurs to be in top 4 or 5 in Premier League. I acknowledge Levy has provided our new £30m state of the art training ground and stabilized our financial position, from the boom & bust days. We need more revenue which the new stadium will bring, for us to compete with the bigger clubs. But we are now in turmoil again.. transfers out and in.. manager rebuild again.. not what we need !!. COYS
Block D Spurs
@Peter, FA cup was televised on FOX here in my region of the US. Just normal cable + sports package required and lower league clubs were televised. We didn't get much exposure because we got knocked out early. Fox has also picked up the Europa. When I first came here EL wasn't being televised but CL was. Since NBC got the PL fixtures there's been more competition for everything English football related, I expect it to continue to intensify.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Shedboy,I agree with many of your points but IMO, we do need a new, larger stadium, if not for the prestige but the increase in revenue alone. All the big clubs in Europe have large, new state of the art stadiums.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Cleveland, Fox is regional (precisely why, beyond the blue puck nonesense that they no longer have NHL games). It is not covered on Fox nationally. NBC has the only national contract in the US and, being in Ontario I get both NBC East and West and have yet to see one PL game on either of those channels. There is no basic FA Cup coverage in the US, to the best of my knowledge. In Canada, Sportsnet World (Used to be Satanta Sports) is the only one with the rights and that is a premium subscription channel. In Canada, Europa League has been covered (EPL teams plus a few choice matches) for about 4 years now. That also makes streams easy to find in Canada and the US. There is way more coverage than a decade ago and Spurs have clearly benefitted from this coverage. COYS
peterballb
MAN ON!, that is where Bale's name started to be recognized but he only became a consistent dominant player the second half of last season. That is what got him his contract. He proved he could carry a team. RM aren't swayed by a couple of good Cl performances (otherwise Crouch would be there, no). His technique and success on free kicks, blistering pace and ability to turn a game on its ear is why he got the big money. His value, in six months, went from about 26M to 86M. It was his domination in the toughest league in the world that did all that. He was to be the face of UA and NBC. They wanted the talent and the image and paid handsomely for it. COYS
peterballb
@Peter, do you not get PL games on NBC normal cable where you are? Outrageous!!! I can get PL games on NBCsn or even some on NBC terrestrial and that's only with a sports package that costs me about an extra $20 a month. They also do this PL extra time thing which is an online streaming service that I don't use, but you need to be subscribed. It is interesting though since Fox soccer folded and that they lost out to NBC for the PL rights, that they are trying to get what's left. They have definitely upped coverage in my area at least of the FA cup and the EL games, although strangely enough Spurs Benfica wasn't broadcast. ESPN used to have PL games but no longer, which is a blow as I used to be able to stream those online whilst at work.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
ClevelandARTSPURS, no, not a single game has been broadcast on NBC East or West (yet the odd hockey game is). As stated, FA Cup is only on Sportsnet World and that costs extra beyond the sports packages. Only Fox we can get is FoxWorld, but that is an optional sports package. SportsnetWorld is an additional $200 per year, if not more, and would possibly allow me to PVR 4-7 more Spurs games a year, at most. It has some good rugby, but then I just watch as much live as I can. Most Spurs EPL games are on and all of the Europa ones are on my regular sports package, so I don't miss much. When they are not on (as with Arsenal this weekend) I work my schedule (as best I can) around the games so that I can watch it live. In the past 3 seasons I have probably missed 10 games, most of which were FA Cup games that were not televised. I believe Ihave seen every match this season, but the first League Cup one that was not televised. COYS
peterballb
The problem with Fox is that they don't get in to enough households and all of their programs are regional. I am a huge Avalanche fan and most of their games were telecast on the Regional Fox channel. Then when ABC and then NBC got involved Fox lost them all. Now NBC carries national NHL games (some of which I get here) and Altitude Sports covers the rest. Needless to say, my computer and I spend a lot of time watching sports together. COYS
peterballb
peterballb, I just mean't that it's from his CL performances that got him noticed around the world to begin with.
MAN ON!
cleveland- on the stadium revenue how long will it take the circa extra 20k seats to pay off the half billion pound cost of building the stadium?....remember we play half our games away....we could have had a refurb and few extra seats years ago...we could have had a new stadium for a fraction of the cost, years ago....instead we wait until we have a chance of building a global brand and divert resources and have legalised a ticket tout to ensure that people can select what games they go to, ultimately driving down the demand for season tickets....the real money comes from piquing the interest of people like you and Peter in North America and others across the globe....TV, Advertising and commercial revenue...that is the virtuous cycle we were close to closing...Newcastle have had a large stadium for years...not done them any good has it?....
shedboy2
next season id like to see frank as chairman, bigc as manager. kernyboy as hes assistant and coops as DOF
123spurs
Agree with some of your argument Jod. The last manager for example had the best points ratio of any Spurs manager in the PL so we sack him, obviously the best win percentage is a totally irrelevant statistic to a lot of fans (and Levy). We then appoint the biggest tit thats ever had the privilege of managing Spurs.
matt hoten
Man On! Same argument as the EPL being the 'strongest' league or the one with the most dosh...
Highgatespur
Peterb - thanks for that regarding European involvement- it's not exactly hard to understand is it about the international profile of the club?!!!
Highgatespur
Block D Spurs - Well put - we must be of similar age - almost identical journey!!! One day surely our turn will come!!!
Highgatespur
Highgate.. indeed, we will see and hear the old Glory Glory Hallelujah again echoing around WHL..
Block D Spurs
'Where is the glory?' I know where it is. I've got it. It's locked safely away in my memory! Sometimes I let it out just for fun ... and to remind me what it's all about!
Geofspurs
Good insightful posts TonyRich and King26. Hardly surprising that the recent hysterics displayed on this site do not come from those like youselves.
Guyver
@Shedboy, yes, I agree with your points, Levy should have looked to have invested when we got CL. Being in the premier European comp, winning silverware, parading top marketable talent is all really important for the brand. I still think that a modern, state of the art, stadium is also important, as part of the "brand" jigsaw. Old Trafford, Nou Camp, Bernabeau, San Siro, all part of the folk lore of the massive clubs that play there. IMO, DL and co have just made a "pig's ear" of it regardless of the difficulties involved. With FFP looming, we will need the extra revenue generated by the new stadium. Arsenal, now are debt free, I think it took them about 8 years to pay off the debt. They'll be even more difficult for us to catch now.
Cleveland ARTSPURS
LEVY OUT!!!
fonekit
The question that is being asked in the title of this article should be asked of the ENIC board and Mr. Levy. What they perceive as "The Glory", is a million miles removed from what fans consider glory. The aspirations and ambitions of the two groups are diametrically opposed. The board sees "The Glory" as running a frugal business, and building up the sales potential of the total package that is THFC, for eventual sale at a vast profit on it's original purchase price. The fans on the other hand want to see the team on the pitch succeed, due to sensible investment where necessary, and the ambition and aspirations of the board illustrated by the appointment of a proven, worthy, and consistently successful manager to take the club forward, onwards and upwards without interference from a chairman and board totally lacking in football savvy. But this is expensive, and unnecessary to satisfy the board's agenda. As one privileged to have enjoyed the success, and the style and substance with which it was achieved, by the team highlighted in the photograph, I find it heart breaking the way the club has gone in latter years, and the decline now seems firmly entrenched into the future.
Frank
Brown, Baker, Henry, Blanchflower, Norman, Mackay, Jones, White Smith, Allen, and Dyson. Those names are etched in the folklore of Spurs history. Unfortunately with their attitude, level of effort, and commitment to the club, some of our mercenary modern day foreign super stars, insult their memory.
Frank
matt hoten, overall win percentages are totally irrelevant to the perceived success of any given manager and of course the style of football played under them. You can only fairly compare the success rates over a similar amount of matches played and a roughly equal amount of time in the job. For example: AVB's win percentage was 55% but Bill Nicholson's was 49.3. Redknapp's was 49.49 and Keith Burkinshaw's was only 42.23,. Terry Venables was 40.61, (the worst of all our managers). KB being 2nd from the bottom, overall.
MAN ON!
Our first ever manager was Frank Brettell, who just so happens to have the highest win percentage of them all, at 58.73%. So, it seems it's been downhill ever since old Frank left in 1899.
MAN ON!
Those stats are taken from our top 20 managers by the way.
MAN ON!
Tony/Longtime/MAN/coys/Sebastian/King/Frank ... Good posts. Good reading from all sides of the argument. I think that's covered it, my job is done!
Geofspurs
Geofspurs, G'day and goodnight. Time for my bed...
MAN ON!
Sometimes there can be glory in losing. Ask King Leonidas and his 300
Cleveland ARTSPURS
Cleveland .... Exactly. Persia was in the top four at the time so performing so well against them, despite losing, was truly glorious ... just like us in the NLD!
Geofspurs
The glory for football fans is having a trophy cabinet with some shiny silver pots in it. The glory for ENIC (and most other club owners it has to be said) is in having the trophy cabinet filled with profitable accounts and robust balance sheets. Unfortunately modern day football means 'never the twain shall meet' until we get owners that are fans as well as business people. They do exist we just don't have them.
SpuriousLife
Block D - I take on board your comments, would never intentionally insult another Spurs fan - two questions for you though - 1 - How do you know players have lost confidence in Tim? because, if you have a source inside the camp that has told you so, then I'll believe you, but if you're simply guessing because we've lost a few games, then sorry, but that's not enough, especially when some players are coming out and saying good things about the man. 2 - Just because you 'fully expect' Spurts to be in the top 4 or 5, doesn't mean we actually should be! in addition to that, we are top 5 right now, so where exactly is the problem? It's not just Levy' fault that we don't have the new stadium, is it? I thought there were still ongoing issues with the council? If I'm wrong on that, feel free to shoot me down, if Levy is the only one holding it up, then I'll totally get off the fence and place myself firmly in the 'Levy/ENIC out' camp, but I would have thought he wants this stadium finished as much as any of us?
King26
King and TR excellent posts!!!
Ossie
Man on, you have raised a relevant point about success of a manager but I think it has more to do with the quality of the squad that they have at their disposal. I dont agree however that AVB's win percentage is irrelevant.
matt hoten
matt hoten, I just mean't that our most successful and/or liked managers in the past have lower percentages than some that are considered failures. I personally wanted AVB to stay. I wanted Hoddle in when AVB left and yet his win percentages for both Spurs and Chelsea are very low.
MAN ON!
Man On, I didn't want Hoddle in but in retrospect I was wrong.
matt hoten
Everyone's definition of what constitutes glory is different. The real glory glory days at WHL may be a fading memory for some, and as the financial impact of mega player contracts, new stadia, foreign ownership/sponsorship, balance sheet bottom lines etc etc continue to hamper our attempts to mix it with the big boys, my definition of glory is simple....... compete until you can't compete any more, bust a gut for your teammates, for the club, for the fans, defeat the odds. I fully understand that the pervading emphasis of CL qualification is required for the revenue which it brings in, but as an Aussie my fondest memories growing up were the magnificent FA Cup triumphs (it certainly seemed to mean something then). Reality today is that the club is like the little boy with the cart, the job's in front of them, but it has to start with belief, and a total buy in from all and sundry. COYS
Melbourne Spur
 

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