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Tottenham B?

Though this is something I have argued for and debated its structure previously, it is at last being discussed at the top table.

Debates on whether it should actually happen and in what format are sure to run and run, but as Spurs fans what are our thoughts? I am a big fan of it, as if its run in the right format, it can help clubs and countries develop young talent, whilst also allowing inactive squad players the chance to actually put their boots on and run around a bit.

I dislike the B team status and have suggested that actually using A team is a better term, purely as it fits better and retains a greater attraction for senior players who no longer del;ate to playing "reserve" football. its all about letters and numbers, but if there can be a spin put on it, then why not if it doesn`t do any harm.

Next up is how it is formatted. Do we allow clubs to add teams into the football league and let them rise or fall depending on the clubs wealth and ambition? Do we have them all in leagues with promotion and relegation or do we mirror the leagues and you go up and down according to the success of the Prem team.

I have to confess to being undecided over promotion and relegation, as sometimes we have to look at the bigger picture and reason what we are actually making these leagues for. Is it to develop players, if so do we want them to do so without the pressure of competition or is that a good thing? Perhaps this is dependent on age of those involved.

Finally how do you decide when to play the games. Do they for example play on a weekend and mirror the Prem games? Does playing them on a Saturday cause problem for supporters of lower leagues and effect the revenues of those clubs. There really is plenty to consider.

I like a format that has smaller leagues, played midweek, and have an agreed number of U21 and homegrown players. I would also make promotion and relegation based on application and not based upon points achieved, as this can allow a club to develop without the absolute certainty of suffering in status. However who decided and what is ultimately good for the game?..




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The journalist

Writer: OxfordSpur Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Wednesday May 7 2014

Time: 8:00AM

Your Comments

First?
King26
I have to say I agree, I like the idea of clubs running 'B' teams. But I think that there should be some strict rules in place. For me, the sort of rules that UCL used to have - so in short, a maximum of 3 'foreign' players. I don't want to see the so called 'big' teams running a B team, signing 15million youngsters and sending them to the B's straight away. I think it should be used primarily to develop English players, most of those so called big clubs have loads of English talent that has little chance of breaking into their first team until they've gotten the experience, the B team system will allow that. We need to be careful though, as I would not like a Spurs B team, or and Arsenal, or Liverpool, United, Chelsea, City etc. B team going into the football league, and a lower down club, say Exeter, having to drop out of the football league because of it. I haven't really thought about how the current league systems could accommodate these sides, but in principle I agree with it. With regards relegation & promotion, yes, B teams should be allowed to go up & down, right up until the Championship. Not B teams allowed promotion to the Prem, that would open up a whole can of worms!
King26
Been calling for this for a very long time and feel it's one of the reasons we lag at the international level and the main reason we struggle to bring through players through the youth ranks. I'd like to see them run semi-independent from the main team and compliant with the transfer windows where they can't keep transferring players between themselves and the parent club other than a set number of 'loan picks'. This also gives greater fairness in terms of allowing them promotion and relegation. Preferably I'd like to see them allowed up to Championship level but at least up to league 1. I'd also like to see a significant annual registration fee for having a B team to be spent supplementing the income of league 1 and 2 sides. And any club that sets up a B team should be ineligible to use the domestic loan system.
flipper
I like this idea. Better than playing U21 games with older lads using it as a stepping stone to fitness. Could be played on wed or thurs I reckon, would it be a carbon copy of the prem? Would relegation, promotion work? Not sure, you could end up with 2 city teams in the prem. needs a lot of thinking through.
Dublin Hotspur
Could also be a good place for up coming managers to cut their teeth once they are qualified. Likes of ledley, working with the main boss and replicating tactics and set up to make the transition to A team smoother, as opposed to coming back from Swindon or the like where different tactics and style of play may be moulded into the youth or squad players, as opposed to the A team style.
Dublin Hotspur
As far as I am aware, the FA are considering "B teams" which is like the Spanish system where some clubs have B teams or even C teams in their league system. This cannot work in England in my opinion. It is well documented how badly organised the Spanish league is. They allow Barca and Real to get away with murder. We also have a more rich tradition of lower league clubs, and they will be at threat if league two is full of B and C teams instead of York and Southend. Not for me. The B/C teams cannot be promoted to top league, but what happens if the "A" team gets relegated...? Does the B team get relegated one below too...? How do you make room...? Logistical nightmare... Discuss it, yes. But the football league are likely to reject the proposal.
TonyRich
Dublin, you can have promotion and relegation like they do in other countries...you just fix the level the B team can get promoted to and don't allow them to play in the same league so a B team would never be able to get into the prem, and if the parent team gets relegated to the championship where they currently have a B team that B team then gets automatically relegated to league 1. I think the biggest problem will be if a parent club wants to disband their B team, what would happen if they want to reinstate it after a few years? Would a B team have to be compulsory for prem teams so a promoted team takes the relegated teams slot? Would a newly promoted side particularly want the burden of setting up a viable B team? Would those slots from relegated teams just turn to junk getting relegated year after year because they never have decent resources? It is going to be an absolute nightmare to set up.
flipper
Finally the FA have realised the folly in getting rid of the old 'Reserve League' setup. If they are serious about creating a competitive B Team league then it should only apply to the teams in the top 2 divisions. The teams can't be dropped into the current FA league pyramid as there isn't room and to make room will lead to a lot of lower league teams going to the wall. We should introduce a new parallel 'Reserves' league consisting of two leagues with promotion and relegation and limit the number of clubs that can enter teams to these leagues. Don't these already exist in some format or another? This means that younger players will get more game time but also leaves the door open to players being loaned to actual FA league clubs in lower divisions helping the development and survival of both players and clubs. The big problem is that we have too many players, many of them from overseas even in the lower leagues that aren't actually that good and could quite happily be replaced with young British players instead. Too much money in British football and not enough sense!
SpuriousLife
Flipper - your point on fee's being paid by the prem sides to run a B team, being used to supplement the lower league sides, I think, is an excellent point. It's getting harder and harder for them to survive each year, we need to help them as much as we can. I genuinely think that (I don't have anything against Exeter btw, just using them as an example) if Exeter were at home to a Spurs B side on a cold Tues night, that the attendance would be upped a bit as compared to Exeter at home to Bristol Rovers or Northampton Town. Also like Dublin's point about young managers / coaches cutting their teeth at these potential B sides, replicating first team tactics.
King26
In principle this has legs, although as PJcoys-1882 states, the smaller league clubs could suffer. I do prefer the option of a B team if it replaces the likes of Chelsea/City's strategy of buying all the young talent then loaning then out. If this B team system is to work then the loaning system also needs to be addressed. I don't have an issue with the loan system although I don't agree you should be allowed to loan to a team in the same league.
yiddyboy
Cant say I will make much difference to me, the games wont be very competitive, played infront of so little crowds, would rather the under 21 set up remains and we loan out the players not getting game time.
Ossie
King26, I honestly think it's workable so it's to the general benefit of prem and lower league sides financially and competitively. But there's no doubt it has to be done correctly right from the start even if it takes years to implement.
flipper
It used to work ... in the old 'Combination league' days.
Geofspurs
Flipper - again, agree completely. Don't mind if it takes them 3 years to get it done right, so long as the final outcome is correct and fair for all involved, I don't see how it can damage the game
King26
I fear if the idea B teams get into a league system - it will be the death of the lower leagues... like it or not in the modern era, they still remain the roots of our game in this country. Would like to return to the 'combination' days, removing the U21 tags on these games. Also used to like the idea of 'feeder' clubs - until the clubs started to abuse the system... think the loan system needs to be reigned back ... it's ridiculous to have 40 players out on loan like Chelski !!! Death of young talent here at a vital age - look at Josh McEnran... (wrong spelling , I know)
Highgatespur
I like the notion of a "b" team set-up or prehaps a minor squad to support the senior squad. As regards shoe horning them into the lower leagues I don't think this is a good idea, nor do I think it would help improve football as it would makie it much more difficult for smaller lower league sides to recruit young players.

I would much rather see a system that requires all prem teams to field a "B" team with the games played on the same day as the senior fixture. Effectively get to the ground early to see the Spurs B team play Villa's B team before the main event kicks off. My logic is that it exposes our youth players to their fans at an earlier age, they also get a more realistic feel for playing infront of big crowd. Less change of having lumps kicked out of them so football talent can flourish. We the fans get to see whats developing in the youth team and also get to see alot more live football as well! the B leauge would run as a stand alone form season to season. If a senior team get relegated so does their B team.
Slurms McKenzie
Glad you've raised this again OX. My views have not changed, I'm still all for a "A" team format.

For me, with the up and running FFP now in effect, many young top talent across the globe are being snapped up even earlier in order to meet the criteria of homegrown. 3 years with club before 21 I believe.

What usually happens is the youth will play in the youth team and then get loaned out to gain experience with men as opposed to boys. Being young and maybe having already left their homeland from fields afar, for some to then be loaned out around Europe once more must be quite daunting and maybe even have a negative effect.

I believe a "A" team league will allow youth to integrate with men, whether those men are returning from injury first team players, or those in the decline of their footballing career but still bit part players. It will allow for all to play under the Tottenham umbrella, allowing continuity to be displayed in playing style and formation throughout the set up. No need for loan moves around Europe, and with Leagues and hopefully media input, a little more exposure for those trying to break into the first team.

I think it will help no end with development, how many can honestly say they know how the likes of Falque and co are doing across Europe?, let's keep it in house and create a battle of the apprentices, It'll do the youngsters a world of good to be playing with a sprinkling of those who have had first team experience. Loans can be good, but nowhere near as beneficial as the sense of belonging and not having to be banded around Europe playing styles of football that do not emulate our own.
cider spurs
Cider it would also prolong the playing carreers of some of our more loyal servants as they could step down into the A team squad / minor squad. I'm with you on the battle of the apprentices though but played on the same day as senior fixtures!
Slurms McKenzie
Slurms I cannot remember who it was I conversed with previously, it may have even been yourself. Anyway the old Southern area league was mentioned and the standard of football played. I just wish more emphasis was placed on all teams above a certain level keeping everything in house. If that means trimming squad allowances to keep all happy and under the umbrella, so be it.

This could take off, but I believe media backing has a big part to play. Even one televised "A" team fixture a week would be a start, it would allow for a little more insight to how those on the fringes are fairing and add to the whole fanbase banter IMO. The end of the day, League tables are the thing that is studied week on week to gauge how a team is doing.
cider spurs
Our 'B' T' team would probably beat our 'A' team. Anything that goes to secure the future of football in this country is a good idea. If it means having a 'B' team or partnering a smaller club ie Leyton Orient, and allowing them to use our training facilities etc would produce better youngsters and build a better grounding for future players. There is definitely some good points to consider about this idea.
vicspur
Slurms I like the idea of the games being played before the main match conditions allowing probably 30 mins halves ? Probably i would like the old South / North division (like cider was saying)... Love the tv idea cider... you are on a roll.. hopefully the recovery of her indoors is gathering pace....
Highgatespur
vicspur - I was just thinking that, imagine:

A: Lloris, Walker, Rose, Dawson, Kaboul, Lennon, Siggy, Pauli, Eriksen, Kane, EA:

B: Friedel; Naughton, Fryers, Chriches, Verts, Lamela, Dembele, Sandro, Capoue, Chadli, Soldado

Pretty close? just goes to show what a squad of players we have, if only we had the high calibre of coaches and a manager .... COYMS
Highgatespur
Tottenham B? We don't even have a half decent A Team, lets get that right first, never mind a B team.
spu 4 life
I have to agree to being concerned over what this may do to other lower league clubs. There could be possibly more than 30 clubs that would like to run a B team. That's half the Nationwide under threat. We need to fully concentrate on our A team in order to reach our objectives. Running a B team would surely be as big a distraction as the reserves apparently was.
jerkinmahjurgen
I don't think a second team is the answer. I believe a far more practical solution is to have partnerships with lower teams for development. The only rule I would put in place would be the number of players who can stick with the promoted side. I'd suggest a cap of two . Any others would have to be bought outright or returned to the parent club. It is highly unlikely that a team reliant upon a parent club would get promoted to the PL as the players loaned out would obviously not be PL quality or they would likely be loaned out in the PL for development. Don't expect it to happen any time soon. COYS
peterballb
Controversial skinny pill have you clocked that add on this page, if that's a before and after photo, I'm a dutch manager coming to spurs.
spu 4 life
Spu, anyway we could get rid of those links ?
Highgatespur
Skinny pill? I keep getting ads for dating older people??? I also think those ads are causeing my Samsung Tablet to constantly kick me out of vital spurs and shut down internet explorer. Pesky ads all they do is keep Ox in the Middle Eastern dictatorship-like luxury he has become a customed to...
Slurms McKenzie
This is long overdue in the English game, and the sooner it happens the better. My proviso is that it must be competitive with a promotion incentive for success, and a relegation penalty for failure. The thinking that you can develop players without competition poses the question "develop them to do what, play pretty expansive football, without pressure to get a result and to succeed", what then happens when they are exposed to the real world, how do they cope.
Frank
On a more cynical note, how would Spurs currently decide which players constitute the "A" and "B" teams, draw lots.
Frank
No Frank line all the players up in two lines, Ten yards apart, and then who ever manages to pass the ball to some one in the other line makes it into the A squad. Obviously you would have to move them closer together on an incremental basis until you have enough bodies for the A team...
Slurms McKenzie
On a different tack. Something I would like to share. I run a spread sheet every season, where I like to forecast the results at the start of the season and plot the progress as we go (this season I have had a disaster, I am 5 points out, if we beat Villa, I had us finishing on 74 points) . I have just looked back, and am reminded that on Aug 18 v Crystal Palace (A), Aug 24 v Swansea (H), and Oct 27th v Hull (H), we won all 3 games 1-0 due to Soldado penalty kicks. I remember at least 2 of these, the ones v Palace and Hull being highly controversial, and on reflection were deemed as probably incorrectly awarded, but the result was 9 points to us. Without these rather fortunate results, instead of 3 as these games would have been drawn, and we would have 60 instead of 66 points, and what has been a disappointing season, would look like a total unmitigated disaster. I know "what comes around goes around" and "things even out over a season", but I think we have been very fortunate with decisions this season, both in those awarded to us, and opposition decisions denied, in some high profile very dubious incidents, often involving Lloris, and it has masked a worse situation than our actual points tally would suggest. If we were currently 3 points behind Utd, striving for a season's total of 63 points, and 7th place, I am sure the mood on here would be even angrier than it currently is.
Frank
If you want shot of the ads, download adblock! just google it. there are apps for all the smartphones too!
Dublin Hotspur
Thank you Dublin... I tried that last time you suggested it - didn't work on my mac. Will try again....
Highgatespur
Frank, I don't know if it is fair to look at it in that fashion. e complain all the time that we do not get the rub of the green. I have not really looked too much at that since Christmas but I do recall, at one point that we had 5 or 6 calls go our way (2 with Lloris were probably impossible to say one way or the other) and 3 or 4 were clearly against. Not unsurprisingly, some of the glaring calls that went against us were in rather important fixtures. Anyway, I have always believed hat you make your luck. If you sit back and defend for 90 minutes you are far more likely to concede a penalty. By the same token, if you play loose at the back, players lunging in are more likely to be targeted for fouls than if they are solid and do the same. I believe we had two reds rescinded so it was not all in our favour.

A weakness in this squad, that has existed for a very long time - pre dates Jol, is that we seem to refuse to put cautioned players under pressure. We so often have the opposing backs on yellows and then we cease to run at them at all. To me, that is basic. If Lennon gets their left back on a yellow early, the next 20 balls I play out of MF are going to favour Lennon. If I bring a sub on at 60 minutes, it'll be Townsend for Lennon. We just don't exploit the advantages we create. That, to me, is all coaching. The opposing player either lunges in and takes a second ellow or he backs off and we create better chances. We just don't do it. COYS
peterballb
Cup games are for B teams.
Rapm
when do we play west ham? I've put us down for a win 54% think we will.
spu 4 life
City one step closer, AV parked the bus for 65 mins, then they tried to attack, only to find it had been clamped. 4-0 wonderful.
spu 4 life
Highgate, It works on my mac. heres the website
https://adblockplus.org/en/safari
Dublin Hotspur
Thanks Dublin - you are a true star !
Highgatespur
Does it work Highgate? should do. savage for Youtube and all that too!
Dublin Hotspur
spu4life I think we play Whamboyz on the 3rd - I think I'm going put my house down on 2-0 win to the whamboyz.... with a sending off in the 24th min... and with two disastrous play from Carlos Rose.... what odds do you think I'll get ?
Highgatespur
Hope you stick around 1883, the banter is good! I like the way we disagree on absolutely everything. like having another wife! LOL
Dublin Hotspur
Yes thanks Dublin - liked the way citeh held their nerves right till the end ... what a Yaya goal!!! Thanks again.
Highgatespur
madrid messed up, imagine A.Madrid stops them winning the CL
123spurs
Spurs final game against Villa to be shown on Sky Sports 3. ;-)
cider spurs
Random thought.

Sherwood stays as manager..

Alienates 'B' team completely

Our 'B' team managed by Ledley .

'B' team players stick it to Sherwood by winning the league.

Spurs the only team to have the 'B' Team above the First team in the league...

Just a bit of levity to make us smile as we await the end of the Season .....

ro6ertj
Posted by Highgate ... Posted below is a cut 'n Paste from Highgatespur ...

Could this not be the way we run out EL adventure?

A full team for the PL and another for the EL.

Surely this would get rid of the let drop the EL ..

Higatespur ... hope you don't mind me using that post vicspur - I was just thinking that, imagine: A: Lloris, Walker, Rose, Dawson, Kaboul, Lennon, Siggy, Pauli, Eriksen, Kane, EA: B: Friedel; Naughton, Fryers, Chriches, Verts, Lamela, Dembele, Sandro, Capoue, Chadli, Soldado Pretty close? just goes to show what a squad of players we have, if only we had the high calibre of coaches and a manager .... COYMS

ro6ertj
Don't mind at all ro6ertj - I think there are real fears about that very fact .... B winning over A!!!
Highgatespur
I think they might be expecting a little bit of mischief Cider, little jamie at the ready ....
Highgatespur
 

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