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We Are A Bit Behind

We Are A Bit Behind

After the City game, some of Poch's quotes...

'It's true the squads are completely different but we are building the squad. Maybe today they have a little bit of an advantage, they are ahead of us because they have signed and kept the players that they want.'

'We are a little bit behind but working hard to sign some players who can help us and bring some energy, and make us more competitive.'

'It's not trying to justify, for me they were better, but our main players 14 days ago started training and it's very difficult to get fit if you only focus on playing games.'

'We pushed a lot to train to train and develop our physical condition. Yesterday it was a tough training session and we knew it would be difficult to compete with City, who have a lot of quality.'

It raises the following questions for me:

Players started training 14 days ago!...

What's the norm for return to work after summer break? Most didn't have any international games to contend with. Did City players return to training a month ago?

Behind on signings...

Did our scouting team not identify suitable players? Were we relying on academy promotions? Or did we think that we had made it and there was no need to add? Is it really a cost/salary issue?

So, 14 days is obviously not enough to train and build fitness which means any signings will certainly not be ready for the start of the season.

We were only 'calm' about the TW just one week ago. Now we are 'behind'. Are we likely to hit a 'desperation' mode? We know what we did last summer! Sounds like a horror movie!

Questions, questions....?COYS

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Writer:Critical_Spur
Date:Monday July 31 2017
Time: 1:00PM

Comments

6
Well there certainly is enough drama in the article to make it a horror movie... I joke, I joke. Poch drills his players harder than anyone else and works them harder than anyone other team through the season so he probably gave them a longer brake to fully recuperate. I said on the previous that fitness is our aim at the moment and slick passing football will be Pep's. It is why City will start strong (in good playing conditions) and suffer through the winter months (when fitness and resolve are more important than tiki taka)... as they did last season. Regarding the transfer window, the only players that go early (and is the case every window) are the players that command high fee's (Morata, Lukaku etc.). Yes we are a little behind, but that is only because Chelsea, City and Man U pay what ever in both fees and wages. I understand the frustration. However, we have an exceptional starting 11. I would very much like to see us add Barkley and Mahrez in this window.
spurticus87
31/07/2017 13:44:00
2
Chelsea - Losing Costa, how will that impact upon the team? Man United - Woefully boring and poor last season, have they really improved that much... Is Lukaku actually going to be better than Ibra? A lot of their attacking players regressed under Mourinho? Arsenal - Signed a very good player in Lacazzete, they still need a lot more in midfield and defence. Everton - Losing their two best players... they can spend all they want, I will be surprised if they make top 10. Man City - a whirl wind of change and can Pep crack the premier league? There are far more questions surrounding our rivals than us...
spurticus87
31/07/2017 13:49:00
0
And i forgot Liverpool - Amazing against the top 5, clueless in breaking down well organised teams who sit deep. Has Klop figured out a way yet? Will they improve their defence?
spurticus87
31/07/2017 13:51:00
0
I am very much in agreement with your thoughts. Saying we're behind in both training and transfers is an excuse as MCity started their season at the same time. What's worrying to me is that without Walker's speed, the right side has looked much more susceptible to counters and looks easily exploitable. Neither Trippier nor Walkers Peters are going to be able to lock that side down against the stronger teams. If Toby plays right, we look better but he can't play every single game and we'd also have a weaker middle. Even more troubling is that by getting into the transfer window late, you battle for scraps and run the risk of getting Sissoko'ed. Levy/Poch may pull a rabbit or two out of the hat, but are they going to be game changers? Overall, I know I'm sort of claiming "the sky is falling", but after 3 games I have enough to support that Spurs have several holes. They need another seasoned defender, either central or outside (Ben Gibson is my choice). They also need another strong playmaker who can be strong under pressure. N'Koudou may be part of the solution but adding Kovacic is my choice as I think Eriksen isn't consistent enough in big games. Spurs don't add anyone worthwhile, I'm almost certain we're battling for 4th not the title.
Gorgeguy
31/07/2017 14:35:00
0
I can't believe anyone takes pre season results seriously. Over the years I've known brilliant pre seasons followed by dreadful starts to the season proper. Conversely I've seen us all over the place pre season yet come out of the blocks flying. Until you have had half a dozen competitive games you can't draw any conclusions. Training regimes are different at different clubs. At one time Juventus used to deliberately have a light pre season and come into the league games slightly under cooked. The theory was that it was impossible to maintain maximum fitness for the whole season and they preferred to finish strong than start strong.
jod
31/07/2017 14:53:00
0
Pochettino must be Shillock Levy's dream manager. He seems to share his "why spend a penny, when a halfpenny might do;" philosophy, he doesn't rock the boat, even if deep down he must realise that we are passing up yet another opportunity to push on to the next level, as we did after our CL QF under HR. The only difference is that we haven't sold the heart of this team, as we did then, not yet anyway, although there is still time. A blind man on a galloping horse can see we need a second striker ( if Jannson is the answer, it was a bloody silly question), an impact wide player, a competitor or selection option for Eriksen and/or Ali, and following the sale of Walker, a right back to compete with Trippier. You cant realistically compete on all 4 fronts I.e. PL, FA and LC, and the CL with only a quality first XI and a lack of bench quality in several positions in the side. Yes we have a few promising youngsters, the key word being promising, but are they really ready for the cut and thrust of trying to win trophies at top level. As is obvious if only some would admit it, this season will be even harder than last, with the Wembley factor, and the fact that rivals have used the window to deepen and improve their squads, whilst we have seen fit to stick rather than twist so far, with the season start imminent, although the window still has to the month end to go. We just might still sign one or two, but they won't slot straight into the team or the system, taking at least a month to acclimatise, hopefully we won't live to regret the lack of timely transfer activity.
Frank
31/07/2017 14:56:00
0
As I remember City were on fire at the start of the last two seasons .... but they couldn't sustain it. We started quite slowly both seasons but grew stronger as the seasons progressed. Different focus on pre-season? Different training methods? I don't know. But the resulting positions in the table suggests we got something right. We won't have an idea how this season will develop until we're at least 10 games into the season. So many questions about every club will start to be answered by then. We can't even make an accurate assessment on out TW business until it closes in another 4 weeks or so. The Barkley saga won't go away. I'm starting to get the impression that Levy will take in down to the wire ... but will get him in the end. I forecast three signings. Wishfull thinking?
Geofspurs
31/07/2017 15:01:00
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I noticed that that woefully boring and poor Man Utd team of last season actually won 3 trophies, whilst we won none, just an observation.
Frank
31/07/2017 15:03:00
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No matter what some of you keept pouting like levy .our bench is weak and needs sorting... End of. All year to scout... Too many excuses. Do it and be done... Simples
62rovinella
31/07/2017 15:04:00
0
jod, the article has not mentioned anything about taking pre-season results seriously. I am merely pointing out Poch's comments and what they mean in the context of the transfer window and fitness in general.
Critical_Spur
31/07/2017 15:05:00
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And that we are behind in BOTH aspects.
Critical_Spur
31/07/2017 15:05:00
0
Geof, I am trying to switch off from how well City played, how they started last two seasons, etc as I am only interested in what we are doing and may do. Purely taking Poch's word in the interviews (and he chooses his words carefully), why are we behind?....and will it be resolved to Poch's satisfaction or will be desperation time?
Critical_Spur
31/07/2017 15:12:00
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Why haven't we signed anyone? BECAUSE WE HAVE A STADIUM TO PAY FOR. Levy said that this would not impact on our transfer business. If that is the case, then how exactly is the stadium being paid for? Loans have to be repaid and naming rights (which will only cover part of the cost) will not commence until the stadium is being built. Tony Pulis said last week that West Brom have to wait for the scraps before signing anyone. Daniel Levy has initiated that very same policy at Spurs (is that because of the stadium or is this just Levy being Levy) even though we have brought in £80m in transfer fees since we last brought a player. Small club mentality. We sold one of a small number of players with pace (Walker) to a direct rival strengthening the weakest position in their squad. If Walker really wanted to leave we should have said - you either go abroad or you stay. You don't sell him to a rival. Hoping that our first eleven are even better than last year following a another year together is not a great strategy. The counter argument is that they may get complacent with no one to challenge them for a first team spot. Similarly, hoping that our rivals struggle because they have so many new players to settle in is wishful thinking. What if they all hit the ground running? We did have a great season last season, I accept that but there were still many weaknesses in the squad. We got three points from the other top seven teams away from home, we should be looking at ways to improve that, we clearly struggle against teams that press us - we need to find a way to counter this - we lack pace throughout the team and the squad is clearly not deep enough. IMO we need a pacy right back, some creativity in midfield to supplement Eriksen and a pacy attacking player. We may also need a centre half if Wimmer leaves. Last season was memorable but the complacency of the owners/manager is worrying. There is a lot of unrest on this site - I suspect this is nothing compared to how things will look on 1st September 2017. There is some good news though - Marcus Edwards new contract. LEt's see if he gets game time this season.
DoncasterHotspur
31/07/2017 15:16:00
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DA - yes I have noticed that the stadium is half built. I just wish Levy would acknowledge that the stadium is impacting on our transfer business. Then at least we w0uld know where we stand.
DoncasterHotspur
31/07/2017 16:03:00
0
Strange that Poch says ' they are ahead of us because they have signed and kept the players that they want. ...

Does that mean that Poch / Spurs have not ?

We have only let one player go, perhaps seeing Walker outperform Trippier he sees a mistake.

ro6ertj
31/07/2017 16:20:00
0
Sissoko for right back? After all Antonio Valencia was shifted to right back by Alec Ferguson maybe its an option for Pochettino. Our previous £30000000 signings have not improved the team a lot. So I see no need to blow our money and wage structure to match Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea spending. They have deeper pockets anyway, until our new stadium is creating a sustainable income. I support Spurs, Pochettino and Levy come what may next season
camper
31/07/2017 16:25:00
0
At this time we have Wanyama not featuring because of his summer minor op. Son had a fracture in his arm whilst Rose has been a long term absentee and still hasn't featured in pre-season. Then we have Lamela who is apparently training but nowhere near a return. We have lost Walker and also have confirmation that Pao Lopez will not be joining us and are therefore down to 2 senior keepers. Rather than worry about fitness and form, I think he'll be more worried about keeping the ones he has available fit right now as the squad is looking threadbare.

As for transfers, we are so late now that it doesn't matter. No new signing would be available for the Juve game which means they won't be walking out at St James Park in 2 weeks time. They've missed pre-season and some time to learn Poch's philosophy so let's use the whole of August to get the right ones in.
muttley
31/07/2017 16:37:00
0
That's not as daft as it sounds camper.Moses was brilliant for the Chavs last season at right back.so why not give Sissoko a go there? We may have to anyway if Trippier gets injured.I'm also expecting N'koudou to deputise at left back & Jannsen to take over in goal if Loris loses the will to live watching the defence fall apart.
Greavesaboveall
31/07/2017 16:45:00
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Frank I genuinely don't take your opinion all that seriously but to claim the charity shield as a trophy is up there mate! Stay positive :)
spurticus87
31/07/2017 16:50:00
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Critical, I read Poch's comments as we are behind in football terms as we are focusing on conditioning and he absolutely hammered the squad the day before the City game.
spurticus87
31/07/2017 16:52:00
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I predict a riot. Start paying 'top 6' wages Daniel or there will be a mass exodus from Spurs of our best players. Barkley won't come here because he's been offered higher at Everton than anybody earns at Spurs.
Greavesaboveall
31/07/2017 16:55:00
0
Greaves & Camper I was contemplating that too! He has the power and strength to play there and works hard when he plays. He is good with the ball at his feet too! He just isn't quite good enough for an out and out attacking role when competing with Son, Eriksen and Ali. A very good shout!
spurticus87
31/07/2017 16:57:00
4
So, one of the favourites to win the Premier League, despite finishing below us for 2 straight seasons, beat us in a friendly after spending £200m and we should be able to directly compete with them, spend £100m (while increasing our wage bill with players that cost as much as starters) and expect that to solve everything, conveniently forgetting what happened in the transfer window last season. I'm sure we improved then. With regards to expectation, there's realistic, hopeful and ambitious. Realistically, we have the 6th highest turnover, although it's significantly less than our "rivals" so anything more than 6th is a bonus when you consider the history, finances and stature of Spurs compared to the rest. Hopefully, we have a team that appears to be able to punch above it's weight by some margin. Ambitious expectation would be to win the league, but you have to be mindful that it may not be able to be achieved other than by drastic means. Simply put, before Poch arrived we as fans knew we weren't part of the historical Big 4, which has now added City to its ranks as they have surpassed us, Liverpool and Arsenal, yet it sounds like some fans expect us to outperform them, which seems unrealistic (you can check the odds) let alone Utd or Chelsea. Many fans want to point out that we didn't win anything, in an attempt to put us down, but if you ask them "did you expect Spurs to win anything?" their answer is no. Bit contradictory methinks. Other than Walker, not many players that were bought would go into our starting xi, if any. Simply put, do we think that we should, as a club, expect to be on the same level as City, Utd, Chelsea, Goons or Liverpool, given that they all have received £100m+ over the past years in CL money, billionaire throwaway money, historical club stature or trophies, yet I'm struggling to see which of that criteria we have met. I've yet to see which players we could buy, on our budget stucture, that would be happy to be on a bench for 80% of the time or would expect to be a financial write off and simply released. Yes, I do want Spurs to improve, but not at the cost of the club itself (Leeds, Blackburn) and I know some have talked about other clubs winning trophies, but they're either relegated or outside of the top 10 and I don't want Tottenham to be a fluke team. Has there been anyone bought that could've realistically come to Spurs (transfer fee, wages and squad status) so far in the window? Please give some examples. Is there a point to our academy? Apperently not, according to some.
melloSPUR
31/07/2017 16:59:00
0
I thought he said we are a little behind, which I took to be a coded message that Levy is a tight-a***. On the THBN blog, which is the unofficial Levy PR site, there is a piece explaining how impossibly complex it is to sign a good player. It gives the turnovers vs salary spends of the top 6 clubs and we have the lowest turnover and the second lowest percentage spend of that turnover compared to the rest of the Group. If we spent the same percentage of our turnover on salaries as Chelsea it would give us another £40.7 million to spend on developing the team. I wonder where that money goes under our supreme business leader? To me it just adds weight to the debate about the priorities of the owners. Regarding the stadium, I think so far Levy's statement that the costs of the stadium will not affect transfer policy is correct in that he has always operated a sell before you buy policy. Of course as we lose saleable low-hanging fruit like Walker we quickly arrive back at the Bale situation and become a "We buy any player.com" after realising our best assets. I must admit that Dele-Arri's current squad analysis looks good on paper, but then it did on Saturday night as well. Just have to wait and see because Levy is never going to change when it comes to spending on the team. Just have to hope that he can pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Harry-Kari
31/07/2017 17:01:00
0
Well said Mello
spurticus87
31/07/2017 17:11:00
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MelloSpur, you start off by saying that we can't compete with teams who can spend £200 million on players and then say that spending money on players will not help us. So why does it help those who spend money?
Harry-Kari
31/07/2017 17:11:00
0
Sissoko for RB? Come on guys, really, after his displays last season. He chickened out of challenges, couldn't control the football and was knocked off the ball by puffs of wind. Valencia is a true hard case, with pace and skill. The only time Sissoko looked tough was when he elbowed the opposition on the touch line.
Harry-Kari
31/07/2017 17:16:00
0
I get the feeling that Danny moves quickly when Poch is convinced of a players worth e.g. Wanyama.Otherwise I think he picks names out of a hat on the last day of of the transfer window & ends up with 3 donkeys like last year.Eee haw!
Greavesaboveall
31/07/2017 17:18:00
0
I'm so cynical today .Think I'll go & have a glass of wine & chill out.Glad to see Vitalspurs is back on form again.The best vital website by far.
Greavesaboveall
31/07/2017 17:23:00
1
The teams who spend £200 million buy players of Coutinho's quality, Of Hazards quality, of Aguero's quality etc. etc. Players who would instantly improve any team in the world. We cannot afford those players wages. It is that simple. Therefore, we often end up signing players who aren't really good enough because those are the only players we can afford. Our development and scouting policy have led us to the team we have now! Our starting 11 doesn't contain a single player that cost us over £20 million... I think that is the point he is trying to make!
spurticus87
31/07/2017 17:29:00
0
The way I see it is that Spurs have to keep their wage structure intact even if it results in losing a potential player. If a player coming in wants more than the current players, what will happen. Every player would feel they deserve a wage increase or they'd become very disgruntled. It would not seem fair to them .... because it wouldn't be fair. One player coming in could result in14 other players demanding new contracts, something I'm sure Levy wants to avoid, and should. The money side of football is now so out of control, it's obscene.
Geofspurs
31/07/2017 17:34:00
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Goef, it is obscene and unsustainable. The TV bubble will burst. In the U.K. the disposable income of 90% of households is shrinking year on year whilst the cost of Sky Sports rockets. Sky Sports is a luxury that people will not be able to afford if the current economic situation continues down the path it has been...
spurticus87
31/07/2017 17:45:00
0
Goef, it is obscene and unsustainable. The TV bubble will burst. In the U.K. the disposable income of 90% of households is shrinking year on year whilst the cost of Sky Sports rockets. Sky Sports is a luxury that people will not be able to afford if the current economic situation continues down the path it has been...
spurticus87
31/07/2017 17:45:00
0
Greaves, we already pay the 6th highest wages in the league. Have done so for years. The fact that other teams choose to pay wages to certain players beyond their means is their business. Yes, all of our key players should have their wages raised, just as they did last year. Dele, Kane, Erikssen, Alderweirald, Vertonghen, Davies, Wanyama, Dembele, Lloris and Son. I seem to recall that Barkley's agent said that the wage thing was BS. He will be well paid. Should he get more than Dele? Certainly not more than Kane, Loris, Erikssen. I would suggest the 50M transfer fee is more of an issue then the wages. He is still recovering from surgery. At least 2 weeks from being able to pass a medical. The players we have in the squad currently are those that will feature against Newcastle. Yes, additions need to be made. As with every year, until players become convinced that the teams that will pay double what we do are not interested in their services, they will not sign for us. Until teams realize that what we are offering is the best they are going to get, they will not sell. Overpaying on transfer and wages may well get you players but it will not get you players that are here for more than the money. In the case of Barkley, give Everton 50M and they have 50M to reinvest to make up the gap. Give Barkley the 110k/week, and after renegotiating all of the other player's salaries accordingly (because most of our team deserves more than Barkley), our budget is probably blown and then we pick up the pieces and start all over again. Needs to be the right players at the right price on the right wages. There cannot be exceptions.
peterballb
31/07/2017 18:08:00
0
Maybe the Toffeemen have already spent their Barkley money, just a thought.
Arky
31/07/2017 18:26:00
0
My biggest concern for next season is if Wanyama is unfit with his knee problem. A signing who was described as "not an upgrade" by a always look on the dark side pretend supporter. It is blatantly obvious to the most blinkered horse that we are not at the races financially with other owners. But still have a race to run with the handicap of a just a few spectators(supporters) on our back.
camper
31/07/2017 18:42:00
0
I think people are overreacting to one preseason game. Would have loved to have turned City over, but the fact is that Dier, Winks and Dembele had no effect whatsoever. When you are destroyed in MF, it's not going to be pretty. I thought we did well against PSG and deserved much better against Roma. The City game was just an awful game. Nkoudou has come to play and looks to be a real weapon. We needed his pace against City. Janssen looks to be meriting backing up Kane. I do not see Sissoko being an option at RB. He plays when he wishes and I believe the sooner he is gone, the better. Until that time, if he wants to have a chance of making the French WC team, I would suggest be put his back in to it. We have lots of injuries to start the season. Not sure if Son will be ready. Wanyama looks a doubt. Dembele and Winks are still trying to get fit and Dier has been woeful (head elsewhere?). That does not bode well for the spine which was so instrumental to our success the past two years. Players coming in will be in addition to Loris, Vorm, Davies, Rose, Vertonghen, Alderweirald, CCV, Trippier, KWP, Dier, Wanyama, Dembele, Winks, Onomah, Eriksen, Dele, Son, Knoudou, Kane, Janssen. That is 20 players. A third keeper, RB/RW, AMF who can score and a young competent, fast CB and we should be fine. Wimmer was so slow. How many of the chances against and goals against did he contribute to in the three games? He was terrible. Sell him. Get the 18M and, if Poch wants him, get in Foyth, who seems to want to come.
peterballb
31/07/2017 19:41:00
0
I seriously beginning to think there is something not ringing true at the moment. Or is it that we have identified our transfer targets and the price for them is too high and only likely to come on in the last week, day. Like barkley, Marhez, who knows. I would have thought Poch would have wanted reinforcements to get them up to scratch, everyone knows it hard to impress under Poch without pre season because he really pushes them physically and tactically getting his ideas across. Also any new player is going to be well behind as it is due to this squad now accustomed to Poch philosphy, so this makes it even more strange that we haven't got anyone in for pre season.

Is the stadium the real reason, uncertain costs that may occur and the club don't want to admit it? Or is it that Poch feels he rather save and reinforce next season when we are in new stadium and give the youngster a chance this season, if that is the case I doubt he will be so confident fater our last two games.

Something doesn't ring true at the moment and whilst it could be over reaction on my side, I am still feeling uncomfortable.

I cannot even believe we haven't even signed Pau, Poch really wanted him and we paid to have him on loan, we are not talking about huge amount of money here, yet that seems to have fallen through, doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe Poch and Levy want to see just how much of a improvement other clubs actually make for their investment? are they going to see what impact other clubs have this season to see if the amounts they paid for their players actually makes any difference to the outcome? We got 2nd last season and the three players we invested in didn't contribute much anyway. Maybe the club feels it will be the same for other clubs, seeing they have spent millions only to find they don't improve that much. I don't know what the thinking is or what is going on behind closed doors, but it is frustrating
It'sME
31/07/2017 20:39:00
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it'sME, talking about other clubs' signings, quite a few are off the mark already and there have been some good reviews on the others, e.g., Salah. Now Utd have signed Matic and I am sure Mou has his eye on one more to finish his jigsaw, all that despite winning 2 trophies. Chelsea sell Matic to a direct competitor, we do the same with Walker. Seems the Mancs are gonna have a big say in the final table and trophy haul whilst doing unsustainable deals!
critical_spur
31/07/2017 20:52:00
1
Stadium budget, as I understand it, is independent of the on field budget. I see nothing that has been done to suggest this is no longer the case. This year is no different than any other year in recent history. Teams that pay the top transfer fees and wages have far more ability to get stuff done immediately. If we are competing with Swansea to sign a player, we can probably make it happen easier than they can. When the competition is ManU, City, Chelsea, Barca, Juve, Madrid etc we cannot compete. The players these teams are signing would start with Spurs and are beyond our wage structure. Spurs aren't in the mix for Neymar. Arsenal and Liverpool, awe can compete with until the wage level does not fit within our structure. Every year we need to wait for dominoes to fall to see what the best available options are. This year is no different. If Demarai Gray is on the market, does that change our targets?, or was that a priority we were waiting to see whether there would be anything come of it. There are not a lot of players that can step in to this starting lineup that we can afford. There are also not many who will bide their time on the bench. Not easy when there are financial limitations within which we need to operate. The new stadium will bridge the gap with Arsenal and Liverpool but will, in reality, have no effect on the current situation regarding ManU, City or Chelsea, just to name PL teams. This is not a summer when there are a lot of really good young players on the market.
peterballb
31/07/2017 21:26:00
0
Totally agree Peter. We ALWAYS buy late. Why are folks believing otherwise? 50m Walker cash will be spent. We have a long term system. Alli was brought, and made impact the following season. Same with Son, Lamela, Dier. I truly believe that much of Trippier, Sissoko, N'Koudou, Janssen, Winks will be like new signings for us. Lamela returning may also be like a new signing. It is not imperative for us to sign players with immediate impact. But we do need PACE in attack. So I expect signings in the 30 days...
TonyRich
31/07/2017 23:07:00
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I agree Tony and Peter and I am very calm. However, I will be furious if we don't go for Mahrez at about £35-40m which seems like an absolute bargain in this window!
spurticus87
01/08/2017 06:58:00
0
Dele, don't forget that's all wasn't well with all of Liecster last year. He was also marked out of every game in the premier league (you simply cannot do that against a side of our quality) and he performed very well in the competition that we massively underperformed! He is exactly what we need.
spurticus87
01/08/2017 09:59:00
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You maybe right Dele and you raise very valid points but in a world where Siggy is worth £50 million then Mahrez at 35-40 is an absolute bargain and one of the few players who we can afford and has the potential improve our 11 and win us the league!
spurticus87
01/08/2017 12:22:00
0
Harry-Kari your comments at 17:01 re having some 40.7 million extra for wages if we spent the same percentage of turnover as Chelsea is both right and wrong. Right from a pure mathematics level but totally wrong from an actual financial level. Why? Because the quantum of money left over after wages are taken out of turnover for your other expenses is much lower for Spurs than Chelsea despite having similar costs. Example; if you have 300 million in turnover and have a 60% wage bill then you have 120 million to spend on other expenses. If I have a 200 million and spent 60% of turnover on wages I would only have 80 million to meet similar expenses as you have. Even having put myself in a dangerous financial place I would still have some 30%+ less money for wages to compete with you.
Whilst I understand the frustration of fans (being one myself) I do understand clearly the facts with regard to the accounting nightmare presently affecting the football world. Frank's constant (and some others) villifyimg of a chairman who is desperately trying to balance development of the club into a "big" club is so very shortsighted. I am not a Levy apologist because he doesn't have anything to apologize for. The facts are there for anyone who has an ounce of accounting knowledge. You cannot compete on wages with teams who are making 40%-100% more turnover than you. Sure you can BUY someone for 50 million but you cannot pay them 150K a week and survive. Think of the chain reaction that would cause with with current stars! I would also like everyone to understand that for every £20k per week paid in wages that adds £1million to the wage bill a year.
jvd
01/08/2017 14:48:00
0
I don't mind us playing the "waiting game" in the transfer market, but if the end result is another waste of time and money on someone like Sissoko, i will not be happy. I predict a very difficult season compared to the last 2 regardless.
Guyver
01/08/2017 15:04:00
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Why Guyver? We have statistically been the best team in the premier league for the past 2 seasons. Scoring the most goals, conceding the fewest and gaining the most points. We have had the youngest squad developing together and have the most stable team (management and coaching included) in the league. We should be better next season than the previous 2. I am very much looking forward to the new season!
spurticus87
01/08/2017 15:48:00
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spurticu87s, in theory, I couldn't argue with your rationale. But, Let's come in to the real world! There are far too many ever-changing variables that one can not account for. The sleeping giants are making a charge and let's see how our 'continuous improvement' pans out. I have my reservations unless we make some startling signings....unlikely imo.
Critical_Spur
01/08/2017 16:18:00
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To ivd's point, we cannot increase our wage to turnover to Chelsea's level because their last two reported years are, by all FFPR expectations, are unsustainable. We know that the last reported year for Spurs 2015-2016 we had a turnover of 212M and spent 100M on salary. This wage to turnover is lower than normal as we normally are in the 55-59% area. We also have no idea as to last year's wage to turnover ratio which is fairly important as we renegotiated almost all of the starters' salaries. WE probably will again this season. Even ignoring all of that and assuming we do not have a net spend (funds which would have to come from other areas - likely wages), we would have about 36M extra to spend on wages to stay at or about 65% which is on the cusp of unsustainable over the long haul (absent interest free loans and questionable incomes of some other clubs). Those funds do not go very far. I figure we will be spending 10-15M, if not significantly more to bring wages up for the current key players. Trippier just got a 30k/week increase which is 1.5M more for one player. Dele will be getting a huge wage hike as will Alderweirald. Most of the others (Kane. Lloris, Son, Rose, Dembele, Dier, Wanyama, Eriksen should also all see a bump in pay. This will easily eat up one third of the funds. We may have to subsidize Sissoko. Walker's wages are gone, but then if we sign a player like Barkley, those wages and more will be gone.

One thing I would say is that if there is a net profit from transfers, those funds should be reinvested in the salaries of the players we need to keep around. 20M of transfer profit could easily see our 10 top players get 1M each more in wages and we'd be covered for the next two years (as there would still be 10M remaining). CL for last year and this season should increase turnover. Wembley increase of bums in seats will increase turnover. New stadium next year increases turnover with bums in seats. Even if the Nike increase, , AiA increase and naming rights etc all go to the stadium costs, the on-field result should still see increases that see us, over the next 3-5 years bridging the gap completely with Arsenal and Liverpool on the wage side of things. The growth needs to continue

peterballb
01/08/2017 17:22:00
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Peterballb - Thanks for the breakdown, regarding how we may not simply have lots of money to throw around, especially as we're not totally sure of 2017 financial results and wage increases of last season. Really does show that we have to be mindful in our spending.
melloSPUR
01/08/2017 17:45:00
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As to income / expenditure... We need a good run to semi finals CL and finals of Cups and PL top 4, which will give us one silverware / keep players / fans happy this season . This prize money will give Levy some extra for bonuses and contracts increase. JVD is correct in his post IMO. As it is basic fact we do not have the turnover of the other top clubs in PL, so cannot pay the wages and transfer fees. Unless Joe Lewis, Alan Sugar etc. immediately put up 100m - 150m for the playing staff we can't do much ....until the new stadium is open one year. So to keep up with the top clubs / pay stadium loan down..means we will have to sell one of our players for mega millions (i expect one will want to leave to R Madrid / Barca / PSG) during the next 18 months..So that is near 2 years from now to get the financial figures up to speed on the other rival clubs..
Block D Spurs
01/08/2017 17:49:00
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Harry-Karl - I'm not sure where I wrote that £200m to spend for other clubs, but we don't need to spend to improve. I think you may be mistaken with that as there is nowhere that I have said we shouldn't. I am making a case that we are not in the Big 4 + City, and it's interesting that those who say we should simply spend (seemingly for the sake of it) don't seem to suggest any players that have been bought by other clubs would appear to fit into our wage structure or transfer fee guidelines. Simply put: which player/s in our starting xi should be replaced? How much would it cost to replace? Are they likely to come to sit on the bench if they're not a starter, and can we afford £80-120k per week for bench players? Who has been bought by other teams that we should've gone in for?
melloSPUR
01/08/2017 17:52:00
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We need to remember Levy built the \ Enfield training centre from the money we got from out CL run to 1/4 finals...(lost to R Madrid) Which shows what I said in my post just now.
Block D Spurs
01/08/2017 17:59:00
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Block D - I agree we need to have a good 2017/18, but CL semi finalists (ahead of Utd, Chelsea, City, Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern and PSG? Is that a realistic, optimistic or ambitious expectation seeing as we didn't get out of the group last season and it would appear that everyone else has improved except us, if you believe what most pundits are suggesting. I'm not saying that Spurs can't achieve that, but I'd be surprised if that's what you're realistically expecting, especially with the potential downside to playing at Wembley all season.
melloSPUR
01/08/2017 18:00:00
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Only just saw the poll and 37% want Levy to leave!? So the team has improved, the club has improved, all the while under Levy and people want him to leave? I'm a bit miffed by that one. Maybe we should get in Hicks and Gillette, you know the ones that made Liverpool (2nd biggest club in England for the most part) fall below Spurs and they're now just about getting their act together. Too much Fantasy football being played it would appear.
melloSPUR
01/08/2017 18:04:00
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Spurticus87, you may not take the Community Shield seriously, but do you take either or both of the competitions you have to win to get into the Community Shield seriously. Perhaps you share Levy,s view in not taking any trophy seriously, or appearing not to do, given our trophy winning record under his and Lewis's stewardship i.e. one League Cup under One Day Ramos in 2008, not bad for a 16 year term.
Frank
01/08/2017 18:09:00
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What is the comparison between the size of the gate at Stamford Bridge (41,000ish, and at WHL 36,000ish, and therefore the gate receipts, I would suggest there isn't a million miles between them . The reason that their income, and revenues are far greater than ours is due to relative success on the pitch, which is largely facilitated by the regular intervention either directly or indirectly by their owner Mr. Abramovich, because of his determination bordering on obsession in being successful, getting top players in, winning trophies and trying to be the best, beating the competition. This attitude compares with that displayed by our billionaire ownership, who appear not to share his enthusiasm or determination to be the best. Whether or not Chelsea's and other's expenditure is "unsustainable" is open to question, I suggest nobody should hold their breath waiting for the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, and Liverpool to go bust, it ain't going to happen and the much vaunted FFP regulations, Mr Plattini's hobby horse, appear not to work, as many said they wouldn't when they were introduced. Our ownership could push us further forward with fairly modest financial stimulus representing a very small percentage of their substantial personal wealth. I suppose there must be a variety of reasons to wish to own a football club.
Frank
01/08/2017 18:41:00
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Frank, United can legitimately pay double what we do. Their turnover, as you correctly suggest, is due to decades and decades and decades of success in England and in Europe. Fully merited. City, by contrast, is at best questionable in the fashion in which they balance the books. Look at the numbers and make your own assessment. In the end, they will not be saddled by debt. Chelsea's debt to Abramovich is in excess of !B GBP as at 2015/2016. He will get his when he sells. How is not my concern. He will get paid and that will come out of Chelsea in strips. Not sustainable. Liverpool had to drastically cut wages and teansfers as they were completely living outside of their means. Spurs have finished ahead of them 7 out of the past 8 seasons and their gap between them and us has been reduced and their gap between them and Arsenal has been bridged. All through a complete lack of sustainable planning and execution. So yes, the current difference between Chelsea and Spurs is on the owners side as to how much of his own wealth he is willing to kick in. Lewis is not willing to do this, and, as a business model, it is hardly sustainable. Wembley this year, CL last year and this and the new stadium will all bridge the gap with Liverpool and Arsenal, which are the only two I care about at this point. To catch up to United, it will take decades and decades of success. To your and other people's points, we need to start winning things. This season, we need the League Cup and to get beyond the group stages of the CL. It is not enough to just qualify for CL and then to go nowhere with that. This team, this manager, and, fairly enough, the chairman, need to learn to win. Time is nigh. Trophies matter. I am sick to death of all those talking about how this trophy or that trophy are irrelevant. Not so. Primordial now. Only 4 of 6 will make the CL next year. We cannot expect it any more than any of the other top 6 teams in terms of financial might. We need to be in Europe every year and need to take all competitions seriously. For this reason, we need strength on the bench, well meshed in to the first team before the League Cup and CL games start.
peterballb
01/08/2017 18:59:00
1
I choose not to rail against the fact that Lewis will not chip in his own funds because he has rarely done so. We still need to work within our means. I am not concerned about the stadium build because, just like the development complex, I do not expect us to be restrained on the pitch by anything beyond the turnover. So long as that keeps going up, our average wages will continue to rise. As at 2015-2016 we still lagged on turnover behind Liverpool by 90M (down from over 100M the previous year) and over 140M behind Arsenal (down from over 150M the previous year). This bridging of the gap has been going on for over a decade, basically since Spurs pulled away from Villa, Everton etc as being the next best teams. City and their oil money jumped the queue, but have not, in any way affected the gap decrease between us and Liverpool/Arsenal. It continues, slowly and steadily. Levy and co should, at very least, receive credit for that.
peterballb
01/08/2017 19:14:00
0
Spurs are happy with top4 even if spurs finish top6 and win nothing it will been seen as a good season by some supporters. Selling walker to a rival and replacing him with an inferior player reminds me of when Dembele was on the bench, behind Mason and bentaleb, luckily Dembele didn't leave.
Palmover
01/08/2017 19:38:00
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Palmover, minimal expectation is that we finish where our finances and ability to buy/pay salaries suggest we should. That is 6th. If we finished 6th but made the round of 16 in the CL and won a cup, I would have an issue saying there was not success in that. The fact we have players remaining and who seem to want to remain is a good thing. I would suggest that the sale of Walker was a specific situation. He wanted to go up North, was at odds with Poch and had a ready replacement already in the lineup. I do not see the sales of any of our "irreplaceable" players to our PL opposition unless the fee paid is ridiculous (i.e. more than 60 or 70M for Eric Dier as an example). If they wish to go, it will be outside of the PL. Chelsea wanted Modric, met illegally with Modric, and that deal was never going to go through. Spurs will hold firm.
peterballb
01/08/2017 20:11:00
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spurticus87, The main reason I think this season will be more difficult is the Wembley factor, but at this point in time, we are also weaker, with Walker gone and there is no guarantee that his replacement (assuming there is one) will be any good. Also as Critical points out, other teams are making massive efforts to progress and with an extra year under Mourinio/Guardiola/Klopp it's very possible their players will be more adjusted to the tactics/methods ect, on top of being able to buy players more suitable to the way they want to play. Stagnation can = going backwards in the EPL. Im not sure Poch can squeeze out too much more from this current squad of players, whereas other teams have a larger margin for improvement. We need more pace up top and a bit more strength in depth.
Guyver
01/08/2017 20:19:00
1
Giver, the starting XI, by and large, have not even hit their peak. Erikssen got better last year and has more to give. Same for Dele, Son, Janssen, Nkoudou, Davies, Dier, Wanyama, Kane, Trippier, all of the young players. I think Vertonghen and Alderweirald are at their peak. Dembele believes he has goals in him.. We have a very cohesive unit and they continue to grow together. No one plays unless they deserve it (see Sissoko and Walker) and this all feeds in to the cohesiveness. Yes, signings would be great and we do have some injury worries (Rose, Dembele, Wanyama, Winks, Lamela, Son) but by the same token, we have the players to field for the Newcastle game and, it would seem that Dembele, Winks, Wanyama, Son will all be ready for the start of the season or shortly thereafter. Players will come in before the end of the window and should all be up to speed after the international break. I would suggest, notwithstanding all of the movement, that Everton have more to worry about given that they must replace over 50% of their PL scoring from last year (assuming Barkley goes). How will Alexis' mindset be and how will that effect Arsenal. Will Liverpool be able to break down clubs that pack the final third? How will Chelsea do when having to play in four competitions and need to use more than 13 players? ManU still seem unhappy with what they have. They are still trying to figure it out. City have strengthened, to be sure. But they did last year too and they did not win. There are lots of questions. The sky is not falling. A couple of good signings, marked improvement in Nkoudou and Janssen, growth of the kids CCV, KWP, Onomah, Winks, a healthier Dembele, a healthy Kane and a returning Lamela could see Spurs vault even more forward. Yes, it could go pear-shaped, but that applies to every squad, every year.
peterballb
01/08/2017 21:14:00
0
peterballb, the players can improve, but I don't think by much. Footballers in their early-mid 20's are pretty much set technically and physically. Improvements are marginal there. Kane won't get any quicker, Son won't develop an excellent 1st touch. Players in this age range can improve the mental side of the game with experience, coping with pressure, consistency ect. fortunately, most of the players are already very consistent, hence so many club records falling last year.. As for my concerns about how we'll fare this season, we'll see. I was a lot more optimistic with the last 2 seasons, so this isn't an annual "doom & gloom" prediction made without any thought. I genuinely feel there are very good reasons to expect less this season than last.
Guyver
01/08/2017 21:44:00
0
Guyver, even with that, Kane missed a bunch of games, Lamela was crocked, Rose missed a lot, Nkoudou and Janssen needed the year under their belt. Erikssen could certainly hit the net more on free kicks. There is something to be said about familiarity. Walker is gone, but the back four are experienced together. Our MF is the same as last year. These guys know how to play together, and, it seems to me, as every game goes by, they get more and more familiar. I think it is fair to say that if we have been the best offence and defence and point getters over the past two seasons, it'll be hard to go up. I do think we will be in the mix as will the other 5 who have more resources. Lots of questions to be answered.
peterballb
01/08/2017 23:08:00
0
I think it's amazing that as Spurs fans we can all see that we have such belief due to what we've seen over the past 2 seasons, especially with Poch trimming the fat, so to speak. The personal bests we've set have been truly remarkable and the best I've seen, consistently, in near 30 years as a fan. Loved the challenge for CL footie before lasagnegate under Jol with good squad building. Ramos brought us a trophy to continue our "Major trophy in each decade for the past 7" record with Man U. Regarding the league, I've only thought we had a chance in 2010 as we had no Europe so should've been able to play Ledley for most of it. Bassong and Dawson filled in, Crouch secured it and we made it to the promised land of CL football. The expectation for regular 4th placed challenge was on! 1 more under AVB, but denied by Chelsea. A Modric, Berbatov and Bale later we managed to skip 4th and challenge for the title, despite our 100/1(?) odds (Aug '15). The magic of Leicester won the day, Spurs becoming the "pantomime villain" and our efforts shunned. 5th or 6th favourite at 10-1 for the league August 2016. Only team to challenge again, losing to league-winner-to-10th-no-europe Chelsea, setting records, cementing Kane's place in WHL history pub quiz, and then told "haha, you won nothing!" It didn't happen to Liverpool or City.
melloSPUR
01/08/2017 23:13:00
0
In wonder, would any fans here have taken the Goons' 5th place and FA Cup, Utd's haul and 6th or our 2nd? Personally, Utd's is just about worth the most due to combination of trophies and CL qualification due to the rules; they may have had play-off, and not guaranteed until very late in league season. 3rd to 5th with an FA Cup would be sweet bitter sweet as trophy, but highlights inconsistency and would've been fantastic for us in the years we were the 5th best team, although City relegated us to 6th, but I don't think we are that team anymore as indicated by our record over the last 2 years in the league.
melloSPUR
01/08/2017 23:27:00
0
I've always thought the teams that challenge for the league will win trophies, and we're on the cusp of doing that. I've highlighted to many a Goon that they haven't challenged for the league in 10+ years. Granted, 3 FA cups in past 4 years, although they're calling for Wenger in/out due to no consistent league challenge due to their Big4 memory and expect to win the league despite little evidence to suggest this in a decade. The Goon then says, with a smirk, "we won a cup and you didn't." Fair point, again. Does this then class them as a "Cup Team" then? Spurs are known as a "Cup Team" and our Club history would definitely suggest this with our haul and records, but we haven't been thought of as a "League challenging" team for 50+ years, maybe a few in the 80's. We missed out on competing at the top, getting some CL cash to build and have been part of a Big5 in the 90s. I'm proud as to where the club is now. We've built a fantastic platform to challenge from and seem to be the only team in the Prem that's punching above their weight within their means. 5th favourite again with the bookies methinks :-)
melloSPUR
01/08/2017 23:52:00
0
MP, has said according to reports, we need players, therefore if he thinks that then levy needs to back him ... simple.
E17YID
02/08/2017 01:07:00
0
Mello, lots of questions there. On Arsenal, I believe they are more successful in the past 4 years than in all the other seasons where their main accomplishment was being in the CL. They were never going to win it. They were not going to win the league. They were just better than 16 other PL teams. Trophies/titles matter. I think it is shameful that Arsenal fans treat Wenger as they do. Sure, they are better off financially that we are, but let's be real, any year that ManU, City and Chelsea have any team other than those three finish above them is a complete and utter failure. Average salaries at those three teams are double the other teams. It is a huge advantage.

On United, I have a deep respect for Mourinho. Hate how his teams play but fully understand that defence wins. If United had not won Europa, they would have lost huge sponsorship dollars from Chevrolet. What Mourinho accomplished by getting players who did not give a toss about Europa to care about Europa was nothing short of brilliant. If you are in it, you are in it to win it. There is no other way. Listening to fans, and, even worse, to the Harry Redknapps of the world poo-pooing on the League Cup and the Europa League is so embarrassing, and so counter to "winning" it is not even funny. But then his trophy case is filled with relegation. Oh, yeah, one FA Cup. What he did with Spurs against Pompey in the FA Cup Semis was disgraceful. Spurs need to take each and every game, each and every competition seriously. WE need to start winning. Levy, Poch, the lads all need to learn to win and that needs to start now

peterballb
02/08/2017 03:04:00
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Dele-Arri, while the argument matters before the advent of the PL where the funds were not the be all and end all, since its inception, money has been the thing in the PL. Probably lots of blame to go around. Tottenham missed out and were left as also rans with the likes of Newcastle, Villa and Everton. We have progressed immensely since then. Even if ENIC were responsible for missing the boat (argument to be made though lots less information back then) one cannot deny that we are no longer on par with Everton, Villa and Newcastle et al.

Blaming Levy before he was even involved in Spurs is perhaps a tad harsh. Further, he is not the final purse string puller, Lewis is. No other seconds since 1962. Some great cup wins which I watched with absolute joy on my father's lap. Spurs were always the underdogs. They aren't so much now. They are in the mix doing so with far fewer resources. As for whether Leicester or Spurs are better placed going forward, I'll suggest we are in the CL and have a shot at the title. Pretty sure that are not in the CL and that we are better placed. The season will run as it always does and we'll see where it all pans out.

TW is all well and good. Three teams have the resources to buy whomever they wish in the summer and in January. WE are not one of those teams. I fail to see how TW's change the dynamics that exist between finances and reality. You still can afford the fees and the wages that you can. TW is open. We cannot afford Neymar, Ronaldo and Bale, three players who would look great behind Kane. Finances were real 15 years ago and they remain so now.

peterballb
02/08/2017 03:30:00
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E17Yid, the comments of Pochettino as reported by ESPN would seem to dispute that. Seems Pochettino felt that Foyth and Pereira were overpriced. Further, Morata, who he tried to sign a year ago, did not want to come because Kane was number one and he did not want to compete with that. He wanted to play. Why Sissoko was signed, I know not. What is obvious is that Pochettino was not going to play him without him earning the place. I'm good with that. I liked AVB. Believe he would have brought trophies to Spurs. He was not backed by Levy. I would suggest that a player like Moutinho (who was available and who we all know AVB wanted) had a value assigned by AVB, the scouts and Levy and when push came to shove, that price went beyond the valuation and Levy would not sanction it. Willian was sanctioned, but the second that the price got beat by Chelsea on the wage side, he was gone. This is not new. My understanding is that Bale was offered 180k/week by Spurs. He got over 250k/week from RM along with a large share of his "personality" funds. It's just not doable. Harry Redknapp would have had us in huge financial distress (perhaps delaying or destroying the construction of the new stadium). Bale out on loan, Bellamy in etc. Honestly. It took years for AVB et al to clean out the mess that was hanging around Spurs, unmovable and unusable. All players have a value. The value is increased if the player is English and is going to a competitor. Thus Walker is worth 50-54M (BTW City either is ridiculous).
peterballb
02/08/2017 03:50:00
0
Another day, another dollar saved. 'Calm', 'behind' and now 'we must buy'....

"But the thing is Daniel is very keen to sign like me. These type of player we are talking about they are not easy to find."

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11675/10970409/mauricio-pochettino-insists-tottenham-must-spend-to-compete
Critical_Spur
02/08/2017 09:41:00
0
I get the distinct impression that many are trying to convince themselves that our inability, refusal, or unwillingness to spend to strengthen our team/squad, puts us at an advantage over our rivals for the PL title and other comps. Many assume that the recruitment policies at City, Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, and Chelsea are misguided and won't work, but that our determination to stick with what we have ( except for selling the only genuine pace in the team, in Walker) is destined to bring success. This is what is known as wishful thinking, and preempting events by making excuses in advance. It should be remembered that yes we finished 2nd in the PL, got to the semis in the FA Cup having got an effective bye to that stage, but in the CL and even the EL we failed to progress beyond the group stages. This indicates some success, but also points to a need for considerable improvement before we actually win anything, and to achieve this we need to recruit some additional talent. Many of us may be satisfied to stand still, but football is the same as any other business, standing still means effectively going backwards as others progress. Yes we may yet reluctantly sign one or two "left overs" in the arse end of the window, running the risk of signing another Sissoko in haste, but of course others have made their signings during pre season rather than 2weeks+ after the PL season has already started, which has to be the right approach.
Frank
02/08/2017 10:23:00
0
Mello.. What I mean about semi-final CL. Is that we have a fair chance to get to 1/4 final and hopefully last 4, and why not?? we did what seemed the impossible by beating italian teams to get to the 1/4 finals before, and with a squad a bit weaker than we have now.... Also a good run in 2 cups to a final gives additional funds and more importantly confidence and belief into the players and fans... As Poch has said players and management need to think about out own team and not, about how other clubs are doing. This will have the same effect as last 2 seasons, i.e. achieving success above our financial "weight".
Block D Spurs
02/08/2017 10:35:00
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