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Cruising, complacency and collapse.

Cruising, complacency and collapse.

Poch said he was struggling to figure out how Tottenham squandered a two-goal lead in a 3-2 defeat against West Ham.

Early on, 2-0 up after well taken goals from Sissoko and Alli, we looked like we were cruising, and I worried that we`d taken our foot off the accelerator and already thinking we had won this.

Before we went ahead we looked exactly what we were; a team of players who looked like strangers to each other., passes were going astray and I felt it was only Son`s energy and guile that was showing as a threat to them, but we settled and llorente`s presence and little flicks started finding team mates.

But soon after the halftime break just as happened at their ground, they fought back and in fairness I thought they did it in style, we simply could not handle Andre Ayew as he grabbed a quick brace that made it two all. We then seemed in shock and it wasn`t long before Angelo Ogbonna headed the winner for the Spam, which seemed to me and those around me almost inevitable. We were stunned into silence, we then finally seemed to wake up again as Poch rang the changes.

But to no avail, we were in the end comprehensively beaten.

After the game Poch told Sky Sports :

'We scored two goals and it looked like the game was over but the second half was completely different, in 15 minutes we conceded three goals.

'When you are not on the same mental level, it's difficult because you can concede one goal, the opponent has nothing to lose and they believe.

'After Real Madrid and Liverpool, it is difficult to keep the motivation and the energy. It's not good, it's a bad feeling.'

If it really is that difficult, then they have failed to grasp what losing at home to West Ham can do to Spurs fans.

I`d venture to add that our defence and even our midfield simply switched off, and to me it looked like Foyth couldn`t handle their physicality when it mattered.

As apparently this wasn`t a target for Poch you`d have to say that he really didn`t seem too bothered about the loss, but maybe I`m being a tad harsh as I still feel bitterly disappointed this morning.

Click here to join in the debate on the club forum.

Date:Thursday October 26 2017
Time: 8:02AM


"they have failed to grasp what losing at home to West Ham can do to Spurs fans", really ? I can't say I'm going to lose any sleep. We play United Saturday then Madrid the following Wednesday, those are the games I'm thinking about. To me Spurs and West Ham is a bit like England and Scotland where the Scots desperately want to beat the English but the English are much more interested in beating Germany.
26/10/2017 08:21:00
As disappointing as it was to lose in that manner, we do have much bigger fish to fry in the next few days. Maybe this was on some of the players minds as well? It certainly was on mine..
26/10/2017 08:41:00
I really don't care that we lost to the Spammers in particular. I care more about the nature of the defeat, it's timing and that Poch doesn't think that certain competitions are worth fielding our strongest team, I care more that he seems to think that destroying Liverpool and earning a draw against Real Madrid would sap the energy from our players when champions are motivated by these things. I like Poch, he has worked wonders for the club (with Levys help) but I seriously question his ability to lead us to titles if he thinks that beating big teams is more important than beating the little teams, every game should be given equal importance. Aggression is key to any victory, we take our foot off time and time again against these smaller clubs and Poch evidently expects them to let us cruise to victory.... champions don't so this. Foyth looked like a boy in a man's world, this was far too early for him and if he is to be Alderwierelds replacement I fear for our league form. I think I'm angrier about this than I realised.
Martyn James
26/10/2017 08:45:00
Foyth did ok in the first half, he won quite a few headers. In the 2nd half we started too slowly and fair play to them for going at us. Crap goal keeping for the first and Foyth in poor position for 2nd. All confidence went then and you could only see one winner. If we had applied ourselves like 1st half we would have seen the game out easily and we'd all be happy with some of the big hitters getting a rest before Utd and Madrid.
Metal Spurs
26/10/2017 08:52:00
Martyn James -So you don't believe in sports science, don't believe in global warming either ? The last two premier league titles were won by teams not playing in Europe, that should tell you something. Proper rest and recovery will beat aggression over the course of a season as hard as ours every time.
26/10/2017 08:54:00
We took our eye off the game that's all. Yes I'm disappointed but I think this is a valuable lesson and I'm glad it happened in the league cup rather than the prem or CL. Players will learn from this, never take a lead for granted and kill off games. Some of the abuse at players on twitter etc is just laughable. It was a mistake, let's learn from it and move on.
26/10/2017 09:08:00
I agree that it is part of the learning curve for our younger players. It was a lesson that was well timed as they will all be more than usually motivated against United.
26/10/2017 09:34:00
hudderspur, the issue I have is as per yours "never take a lead for granted and kill off games"... How many times have we said it could become a cricket score and then drop down a couple of gears. There's a reason why City have a massive goal difference. They just keep going. Goals give every one confidence....Barca and RM are the same....and to an extent our local neighbours for that matter. Yes, a lesson learnt, but learning it against the Pikeys?...not for the 1st time either. Let's see how well prepared we turn up on Saturday. COYS!
26/10/2017 09:48:00
Redknapp, AVB and now Poch all seemed to think that the EFL Cup was a nuisance. I can see why they thought like that, and in Poch's case he's doing what Danny Blanchflower (it wasn't Bill Nich) said so eloquently; 'It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low. And we of Spurs have set our sights very high, so high in fact that even failure will have in it an echo of glory.' But I can't pretend that letting clubs like the Spam off the hook when we should have humiliated them is a huge weakness in our psyche and our mental approach to games like these. I cannot emphasis enough how losses like this pain me, not only do you feel that the trip to Wembley was a waste of time, but I can't help put feel that somewhere in the core of Spurs is still a little bit of 'Spursey' - that ability to shoot ourselves in both feet just when everything looks so positive....
26/10/2017 09:54:00
CS ... I agree that our GD would be far higher if we stopped cruising from winning positions. It also ensures we don't lose the initiative and end up like yesterday.
26/10/2017 10:03:00
Critical Spur - exactly what I was pointing out in another post. There is still a lack of ruthlessness, when the opposition are poor and you can score you get the job done, you go for goals and make it a cricket score, not drop down a gear or so. So many games I have seen us 2 or 3 goals up at half time and 2nd half nothing. Whereas winners go for the jugular, have no mercy, they keep going.

For those saying they are not that bothered, well shame on you. Personally losing to WH is awful it's a Derby, but also this idea of concentrating on the PL, get real, this loss imo means we are likely to have a trophyless season again. I seriously cannot see us win the CL or PL this season, so that leaves us FA cup and that is harder to win imo because its valued more than the CC.

I am not one of those fans that think silverware is the be all end all, I have said before we are progressing and silverware will come, but after last night I am not convinced we are there yet, I still think there is a deep rooted 'spursy' thing, lack of winning mentality, lack of professionalism and lack of a leader on the pitch.

I still say and am upset about out first half performance, people go on about how we were in control, yes we were in regards of the football, but we were not mentally, I could see the body language, arrogance, and what happens with this 'pride before the fall' is what happens. They needed to be professional, and have a winning mentaity in that first half and if they had moved the ball proper and stopped showing off they would have got 6 goals against a poor WH side and then the game would probably been over, but even then a winning mentality wouldn't go down a notch, they would have cntinued in the second half and bagged another couple. That's a winningmentality. I seriously hope Poch has seen this and the players and they rectify it soon - it was ugly, I don't like disrespect or arrogance especially when you have won nothing
26/10/2017 10:13:00
It'sMe, I picked up on your comment about ruthlessness (lack of) in the last night's aftermath and I agree with you. I can understand conserving energy at times, but to lose control?......and v them ******ers?! Anyway, it is not quite water off the duck's proverbial...but am slowly moving towards the next helping on Saturday and trying my best to pretend it was a bad dream!

Can I just re-iterate, I was livid that Llorente was given ZERO service for his 2nd FULL appearance......where were those crosses. As guyver pointed out, taking off BOTH our strikers at the end ...and lo be hold, crosses suddenly materialised!
26/10/2017 10:21:00
CS ... I'm sure it was just a mystical game plan to confuse the opposition ... Oh, and the supporters, pundits, media, and Spurs players. It worked a treat!
26/10/2017 10:27:00
Guys, why I think about it - finding the winner of the post/poster of the month is tougher than I thought! There is some real quality here - can you ALL help me? If you can please 'like' a post of you do think it's worthy of it, as I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it's a way that you can partake in finding the winner and also for me to compile my short list - I know it's not a huge prize this month, but in future months they may well be better more expensive ones and I'm keen to capture your thoughts/views as much as I can before sending out the prize(s). `many thanks. 'Ex
26/10/2017 10:28:00
Spurs should always play to win and we need a trophy, but if you are going to lose then this game wasn't a bad one with the exception of it being West Ham. The quarter final is just before Christmas (we play Burnley, Southampton & West Ham in a week) The positives are that we gave Rose a few minutes, Lorente & Foyth got a start and Sissoko scored and played well. Top 4 is still our priority going into the new stadium and winning the Carabao Cup will only be a drain on the team/management unfortunately.
26/10/2017 10:32:00
It'sME, Buddy, don't lose hope about a trophy this season. With your personal health issues, I am sure hope and fight is what keeps you going. Your posts show huge passion and long may it continue. I am sure Poch will be firing up that rocket up their ****.

I just read the article (extract from the book) on Skysports about how Poch felt and dealt with the 5-1 loss to Newcastle. The man DOES care..... and I fully expect a positive reaction.
26/10/2017 10:32:00
Far too casual and cocky. Dele strolling around like a peacock. Llorente touched the ball three times(one nice flick but totally ineffective). Yes, he needs crosses but whats happened to his feet?Nkoudou touched the ball twice... kicked it out once and then fell over a few minutes later...he looks completely out of his depth.Has done nothing since signing. Surely we have some youngsters who could play up front and put in a shift. Kane might be out for Man U ...we have no one else to play his role. Can we park the bus (not our style) and sneak a 0-0? Yes, the EFL is a nuisance but fans pay good money to see us play not show off and then fall over. Very depressing and embarrassing.
26/10/2017 10:36:00
legend23, I'd have no qualms if we had approached last night's game with indifference from the OFF...and may be lost 1-0 treating it as a training/fitness exercise, giving ALL the kids a go. We started with half the senior team, we took a 2-0 lead.... For that reason, it becomes hard to swallow....
26/10/2017 10:37:00
One thing I'm not getting from some folks (over) reaction to this one loss is the complaint of us not being able of putting games to bed by going all out to score more goals etc. In the past 2 seasons Spurs have been the highest and the 2nd highest (by just 2 goals) PL goal scorers. It's a fallacy that we don't score enough goals. How many did we score in our final matches last season? The last 2 were 6-1 and 7-1 away wins to THFC. (preceded by a home win against Man U, by the by). Even so, we can't expect this every time we play a so called lesser team. This of course doesn't take away from the fact that we were rubbish last night. We were. But goal-scoring and seeing out games from a winning position has, overwhelmingly, not been a real problem for us. And neither has our general attitude and fighting/winning mentality. This really is a rarity with this Pochettino team. So, let's not be bad losers. Let's not be "arrogant" in our support.
Hot Tottingham
26/10/2017 11:50:00
We lost when it should have been 3 or 4 to us in 1st half... This show a lack of a wining mental attitude in players, and arrogance and complacency. Too many were guilty of this. The young boy Foyth was nervous at Start, settled a bit but needs a lot more PL experience, perhaps a short loan ?. Carroll is difficult to handle so he was in the deep end....Also he was on right CD side of the back line. This is where all west ham goals came from Right side, corners / cross. Toby is normally there with Trippier / Sanchez /a DMF available. Vorm messed up holding the ball 1st goal, and we fell behind in effort and passion. This display is NOT Acceptable, Fans around me were not happy witnessing this 2nd half, as i hope poch and Levy was as well.
Block D Spurs
26/10/2017 12:08:00
I’m rarely worried, or even very annoyed, when we lose .... as long as we’ve been competitive. In the second half we were not competitive, so that’s annoying, particularly after the first half performance. The Hammers are not a team I need us to beat. They never have been. They are just another average PL team, nothing special. The only teams I don’t want to lose against are Arsenal, Chelsea, and any club managed by Mourino. If we get something from the game on Saturday everything goes back on track and what went before is consigned to history and forgotten. If we’re competitive for ninety minutes, whatever the team selection is, a win is a distinct possibility. I think!
26/10/2017 12:11:00

Sorry to correct you Spursex but I'm certain that the "echo of glory" quote is from Bill Nicholson and not Danny Blanchflower.

However, I think this Blanchflower quote is quite appropriate to last nights performance

"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom."

Hot Tottingham
26/10/2017 12:15:00
BDS .... I'm sure MP voiced his displeasure to the players in no uncertain terms after the game, I'm hoping we'll see the consequences and reaction against United. If the players needed a jolt back to reality after the Madrid and Pool games, this was it.
26/10/2017 12:16:00
HT ... I think that quote was read out to the Hammers players at H-T.
26/10/2017 12:20:00
Two consecutive games against Madrid and Pool .... and now two consecutive games against United and Madrid. Does it get any better?
26/10/2017 12:22:00
I would totally agree with Jod's first posting. Although it is nice to get the bragging rights over "the pikeys", this particular competition is just one too many when you are in our position. Unlike the Spammers who have precious little else to aim for, except a possible successful PL survival fight, or a decent FACup run, so last night's result is no reason to lose sleep. They are unlikely to win either the EFL Cup, or the FACup, but will treat every round in either competition as a mini final. We are currently 3rd in the PL only out of 2nd on GD, and likely to reach the KO stages of the CL, so our schedule will be busy enough without the EFL Cup. Having said all of that, the way we lost is concerning, you shouldn't relinquish a 2 goal HT lead against anybody in any competition. For us to concede 3 goals is a shock, bigger and better teams than WHU have tried and failed to achieve this.
26/10/2017 12:26:00
I completely agree with you Frank and therefore, also jod.
Hot Tottingham
26/10/2017 12:27:00
Frank ... That just about sums it all up, mate.
26/10/2017 12:42:00
As I continue to recover from the embarrassment of last night, I am now looking at the positives arising from the showing....

First of all, I agree with Frank, Jod and others that it's few less games on our calendar and hope the remaining top 4 contenders (City, United, Chelsea and Ars*) carry on slugging it out against each other to the final and impact their progress on other fronts.

Secondly, trying to see the disappointment in a positive light that Poch and the team has raised the bar so high that many of us are no longer expecting a 'bad day at the office', so we too have much raised expectations.

As for the Spammers, well, their bar had been lowered so much that it is no longer on the 1st notch and let's see if their 'cup final' win makes nay difference to their PL showing or Belic being able to remain employed.

I have no doubts that a few backsides will have been whipped by Poch and a good showing v United will keep that bar raised.
26/10/2017 12:43:00
I think it's blatantly obvious that I was as angry as any Spurs supporter last night, by my posts. I even harshly criticised our first half performance even though we were 2-0 up. Thing is, I'm not gonna let 1 match against a very poor WHU get in the way of everything else that's been good about our season so far. I now can't wait for the next two matches. I'm sure we will once again rise to the occasions, as we usually do.
Hot Tottingham
26/10/2017 12:50:00
The priority for Poch from Levy has to be a top 4 finish this season so that we have CL football in the shiny new stadium. To that end he has to protect his major players as much as possible to be ready for the major challenges and clearly ManU is one such challenge. The performance last night smacked of no preparation or tactics just a bunch of players thrown together. We didn’t dominate the first half as much as the Hammers decided not to play, a tactic that Bilic has used against us many times. They always come back strong in the second half at some point and last night they thoroughly deserved to win. It highlighted the lack of leadership on the field, our lack of creativity when Eriksen doesn’t or isn’t allowed to play and that Poch doesn’t have a system to optimise whatever talents Llorente has when Kane isn’t playing among a host of other things. On the positive side, Danny had a full 90 minutes, Dembele didn’t seem to pick up a new injury and that’s one less commitment to interfere with our major priority.
26/10/2017 16:06:00
CriticalSpur - This is something I just don't get about players. Are they really stupid when it comes to knowing what needs to be done to play to a players strength. Everyone in the world knows for Llorente at his age to be effective he needs crosses, yet we don't cross the ball in to the area. How can they not see it and do it. I am bloody furious about last night, forget its only CC it's the manner of it and I still stand by the fact that even though we were in control in the first half there was an arrogence, a lack of professionalism and certainily some showboating when there should not be and if that is their mindset then they have a lot to learn.

I am also mad because it takes a hell of a lot out of me to watch them and when they lose or behave that way it's energy wasted for me. I know they want undertand that and I am not the centre of their or anyones else universe, but it has got to me.

Ok I will get over it but I didn't like the way the players played, behaved and crumbled, may be the pain is partly because I allowed myself to beleive those days were over, and they are clearly not.

I remember some time ago I saw this arrogence when we were on top and the game was easy and the same thing happened, I think that time we got a point, so imo we have not learnt, and it concerns me as to whether Poch is actually seeing the problem, this particular problem of showboating and arrogance! is he interpreting it differently as he said 'lost focused' - No they were showboating and arrogent and they need to be told imo. Total lack of respect to the opposition the fans and club. The worse of it is that WH did it not long ago, came back so why they thought they could mess about when the opportunity was there to kill the game in the first half I don't know and neither do I know why they thought that 'job was done' at 2 nil. They played to the hype and emotion. The saw WH have been poor and fragile and they were poor in the first half and they got 2 goals and messed about showboating instead of getting the job done, they allowed the easiness of it go to their heads and lessons need to be learnt. Lets hope they see it for themselves and lets hope Poch gets into them and starts to make them realise they need to also adjust their play when Llorente plays, cross the bloody ball.

On another note, it is concerning me that we cannot attract a striker who can help Kane. Noone wants to compete and now we found one in Llorente the players can't give him the service, so how long will he stick around and how long will it be before his confidence is lost and wants to leave.

Kane is our brightness but also his rise to fame as also started to hinder us and we need to really think about how we are going to get a suitable back up for him if we can't get the players to adjust their play for a different kind of striker.

So positives, we have less games and can concentrate on the PL and Cl and still have FA cup to try again, but as I said I don't feel we will win any cup this year now. Having said that I did start the season saying if we get top four and back into CL next season for our new home I would be happy due to having to play at wembley, lets hope we achieve that.
26/10/2017 17:32:00
Not to take away from anything you feel about last night IM but I'm sure we did put quite a few crosses in. I just don't think many of them found their man wether it was Llorente or anyone else.
Hot Tottingham
26/10/2017 17:46:00
All in all, I personally think it was more to do with Llorente himself that our attack was not on fire last night. (Apart from his neat pass to Son for Sissokos goal). He barely got into the box and he was responsible for a lot of misplaced passing in and around the box. He had a bad night. I don't think he has had a bad season so far. He didn't seem to have any real understanding with his team mates when it came to lay offs, 1-2's etc. But that will come the more he plays with them.
Hot Tottingham
26/10/2017 17:57:00
This is what I meant by we let Huddersfield off the hook at 4 - 0 we got complacent and took our foot off the pedal and let them take the game over, the only reason it stayed 4 - 0 and not 4 - 4 is we got lucky that we played a team such as them. If it had been citeh they would have slaughtered us. We did exactly the same here, went two up, looked totally in charge, then took the foot off, got lazy sloppy and complacent thinking the game was won. Then it went all SPURSY and we lost. Poch really needs to wise up regarding the domestic cups, it's all very well shooting for the moon, but you need to be able to hit it. Until then you aim for more sensible targets to instil a winning mentality by winning anything that comes to hand, then you will shoot the moon. He needs to get us a domestic trophy and soon instead of seeing them as not good enough. L Hate to say it, but look at how Moaning Maureen did it.
26/10/2017 19:25:00
It'sMe, I think HT makes a good point in that there were attempted crosses (if you can call them that), but like everything else that was misplaced, the intended crosses were never threatening and were easily cleared. The other point I'd make is that when Kane starts, we don't just rely on crosses and we generally play through AM and create chances. With Llorente starting, one would've thought there would've been enough training ground drills to ensure that we played to Llorente's strengths. The issue here is that Llorente (apart from v RM) has hardly had many minutes, apart from 5 mins cameo's. It's an area that I have been vocally critical of Poch. How are our fringe players going to cope in a competitive environment when they get 5 to 10 minutes to make an impact. On that note, N'Koudou seems to have gone backwards. Another N'Jie springs to mind. Sissoko, apart from his goal didn't impress me either.

Enough of dissecting last night's performance. I am moving in to 'look forward' mode. There's 3 vital points at stake on Saturday and I expect a fully alert and full throttle game. COYS!
26/10/2017 22:08:00
CriticalSpurs - I agree re fringe players not getting enough time. Poch doesn't like to use subs until 10mins from time even when we are in control, he is hesitant to take a player of and give more time for fringe players, somthing he may need to consider doing, if he sees it as a problem.

GK reminds me of another Njie and it begs to believe why we let Onamah go out on loan and keep GK? I actually was unsure about Onamah I thought he was going backwards but I don't think he would have done any worse than the cameos GK has had so far. I actually think some of our youngsters could come on and do better than GK.

This Sissoko issue was a huge one for me when we signed him I was so upset then and last season was a nightmare. Has he improved this season 'yes' but that wasn't hard to do after last season, but he is nowhere near good enough. He cannot control the ball quick enough and when he breaks free with his pace and has to make that final pass he hits his man and the move breaks down. That goal last night only just went in and while ok he scored and it could be deemed a good goal I saw nothing to suggest he is anywhere near what we need and the only good thing about keeping him is we have had injuries and he has filled in with experience but hugely ineffective by our usual standards. Could we not have got better?.

I also cannot understand why we did not get cover for the back line either. Playing 3 at the back who is cover? We have Foyth a kid. Mind I thought Davies did well enough in a back 3.

It's gone now and I have slightly settled down but not entirely let go of it, I just got really bugged this time but a good result against Utd will go a long way in last nught match becoming a distant memory.

I do think Poch needs to consider the smaller prizes like the CC and FA cup. It's great going for the PL and CL but players do want silverware and so do many fans. PL is tough to win and CL even tougher so may be its time to consider CC and FA to gain that winning mentality and gain the feeling of winning a trophy. Poch prides himself on keeping the feelings when we go on a good run, feeling wembley as our home, how can the players keep that feeling of winning mentality of a final, trophy if they don't ever win one. Win the CC and they have that experience that feeling, that is where it starts, keep that feeling and then take it into the next competition and work your way up. May be he is rushing trying to win the big comps too soon.
26/10/2017 22:37:00
It'sME, yours "but not entirely let go of it"... Yep... and you can bet your bottom dollar, Poch won't be forgetting about that game in a hurry, just like the drubbing we got at Newcastle a couple of seasons ago. These sort of games become reference points for future debates and let's hope there won't be a need to refer to them. Hope a win at United will go a long to to improving your health and mood. Stay strong. COYS!
26/10/2017 22:48:00
IM .... Those days will never be over .... Spurs and every other team will lose the odd games they should win. It's how football works. If we accept that simple fact our stress level will not suffer quite so much. The next win is always just around the corner.
27/10/2017 00:46:00
Found myself agreeing with Jod and, some good posts too HT. Not really sure there's anymore to talk about as it wont change a thing, and as it is, we are doing well, so time to move on, No Kane for tomorrow's game, makes it even tougher now.
27/10/2017 10:33:00
So I did as Critical suggested, and had a look at some highlights. For me, we conceded the first two goals on big defensive mistakes. The first goal, I don't think Vorm can do any more. However, the failure to close down the WHU player who shot is criminal. Nobody on the edge of the box. Not sure why, as this should be practiced over and over again at the training ground. The second goal we concede is down to Foyth not being aligned with the rest of the back 4, and playing 2 WHU players onside. A bad mistake from a young player. You have to take the bad with the good I suppose. I just hope he learns. The 3rd goal, Toby got beat but Ogbonna had a lot to do. It seems we took the foot off the pedal, and when we tried to get going again, the momentum had shifted. I thought that the criticism of Llorente was harsh. He actually tried to make his presence felt, and I actually saw several instances of Trippier, Alli or Rose trying to get balls in the box. However, those crosses never beat the first man. Not so much a tactical problem than a bad game from several players.
27/10/2017 13:39:00
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