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Mauricio - our great leader!

Mauricio - our great leader!


Well spoken Pochettino!

The hypocrisy about 'diving' among politically correct football fans is quite appalling, and I have for quite a long time held the views that our manager has now publicly expressed. It seems that some of us would sooner accept a leg-breaking tackle from an 'honest no-nonsense' defender than Dele Alli going over when tackled.

What about the sides who take forever over throw-ins and substitutions when they have a narrow lead? That is cheating as much as any other aspect of the game, but the focus is on 'diving' and woe betide any player who gains a reputation as a diver. Saint Gary has come out against our Mo, talking about how diving will eventually ruin the game. Well, it hasn't ruined football yet and it has certainly been happening for as long as the beautiful game has been played.

It was an Italian captain - I forget which one - who said some years ago that football is a game of deception, and as much as deceiving your opponents, it includes deceiving the referee, if possible.

Of course, I greatly enjoy moments of sportsmanship - Paolo di Canio refusing to score for West Ham past an injured goalkeeper, for instance - but tricking an opponent and even a referee certainly does not imply a lack of sportsmanship.

I also fully agree with Mauricio that VAR does not improve the game. In fact, my first experience of the system was that it could just be what ends my 50-year interest in the beloved game. What a loss that would be to me. Football allows me to escape all the crappy nonsense of the world, for something that really matters.

Some people have explained Mauricio's attitude to diving as, to paraphrase, typical of an Argentinian! That is simply uncalled for and out of order. So the jingoists are siding with the hypocrites!

Let's not ruin the great gift of football with an approach that is politically correct. I believe, Saint Gary, that that is what we are doing.

Shannon



Click here to join in the debate on the club forum.

Writer:Shannon
Date:Wednesday February 7 2018
Time: 2:44PM

Comments

0
so you wouldn't complain if we lost to arsenal because one of their players dived and scored from the penalty resulting in us not making the top four and that would be fully acceptable to you.eh? You'd be perfectly happy to say it is all part and parcel of the game?
chrishove123
07/02/2018 15:17:00
0
Swings and roundabouts.
Geofspurs
07/02/2018 15:28:00
0
chrishove123, Like it or not it is part and parcel of the game. And, if all the opposition are indulging themselves in the 'dark arts' (and they do), then how do you as a player and as part of a team equalise your chances in a game where winning is considered to be the be all and end all. It's not by being the pure ones, never to foul or to simulate or to deceive or to manipulate the officials. Any Idealism of the so called purity of the beautiful game is but a fantasy and out and out honesty does not win games, let alone trophies... And it's us supporters that are part of all this as much as the players the media and all. We encourage it every time we jeer a player for a misplaced pass or failed effort on goal. Or dare I say, for being too honest.
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 15:39:00
0
On the other hand to your scenario chrishove, if on Saturday Kane wins a penalty in the last minute to win us that game but it was considered a clever but deceptive act to gain the free-kick, will you then complain that in fairness Arsenal should've walked away with a draw. Or, would you say thank you Harry, you clever little so and so?
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 15:43:00
0
How many fouls during a match are to be considered honest fouls? And yet we can't seriously expect them not to occur can we? Is it any less honest or more harmful to the game to dive, when unlike a physical foul it is most unlikely to cause any serious injury to anyone?
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 15:47:00
0
"but tricking an opponent and even a referee certainly does not imply a lack of sportsmanship." <.br>Of course it does imply a lack of sportsmanship. Go read what Danny Blanchflower said about winning through cheating.
David O'Brien
07/02/2018 15:48:00
1
"but tricking an opponent and even a referee certainly does not imply a lack of sportsmanship."
Of course it does imply a lack of sportsmanship. Go read what Danny Blanchflower said about winning through cheating.
David O'Brien
07/02/2018 15:50:00
1
one doesn't want to win through cheating or by boring the opponent to death. That's the traditional Spurs attitude. Got us the most honorable double in history in 1961. It's not enough to win, one needs to win the right way--playing honorably. How one lives has more importance than one's bank balance at the time of death. It's not how many cups you've gained, but what you did to gain them. Didn't you mum explain this to you when you were a wee lad?
David O'Brien
07/02/2018 15:56:00
0
So, no double winning Spurs player ever fouled or deceived a ref to gain an advantage David? It's an honourable attitude that Danny had but realistically, it just doesn't hold sway.
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 16:03:00
1
There is a great deal of hypocrisy in all this and from all quarters. Ex-player pundits are the worst for it when they come across holier than though for laying into current players' antics that could've so easily have been inspired or influenced by the very player that is now criticising them for something they all too readily did themselves on a football pitch... It was only recently (this very season) that I recall another of our young and talented players, gliding into the box, ball at his feet and making his way to the goal. He was kicked at a couple of times and although he lost his balance and control of the ball, he did his utmost to stay on his feet. I myself applauded him for it. Even so, a couple of the very same pundits that would've slated Dele for going down, explicitly stated that Harry should've indeed gone down, even though there was no blatant foul committed but there was some contact. The reason Dele has been so slated is because it was an obvious dive, without contact. So, it's wrong, more so because it was embarrassing from Dele as opposed to clever? Or so it would seem.
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 16:26:00
0
Harry Winks that is...
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 16:28:00
0
I'm not sure that you guys understand the premise of the article and what Poch was saying. It's about the hypocrisy of many of the reactions to Dele's 'dive'. Not that it's something to be encouraged or applauded.
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 16:34:00
0
David, you seem to have so much more to say when you are alone and not when I'm trying to actually have a conversation with you... LOL... I'll leave you to it and talk to myself, Offline.
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 16:43:00
0
So according to Poch and this article diving and conning the referee is fine. Maybe we should change our motto to "To cheat is to win"? Not as far as I'm concerned. This country is renowned for introducing the concept of fair play (even though we don't always live up to it) and Poch should be ashamed of himself for coming out against it in our name. Quite apart from anything else refs and opposition supporters will no doubt keep his words in mind when confronted with any dubious actions by our players. It could even be the difference between winning and losing vital games. Thank you Poch for giving us yet another hurdle to jump over in our race for success this season.
Stan Rosenthal
07/02/2018 16:53:00
0
Cheating is not fine, but to level the playing field, you have to do it, as everyone else is. HT brings up a good example about Winks staying on his feet. Last season in the FA Cup semi vs Chelsea, in a similar circumstance, Victor Moses went down and won a penalty when he easily could have stayed on his feet.
Guyver
07/02/2018 17:22:00
0
MP, said it was wrong that Dele dived and correct that the ref booked him for it. Pochettino's beef was about the over-analysing of every single controversy that is in a game and then the focussing in on Dele the way the media have. He showed his concern that such over-analysing may eventually ruin the game. He wasn't condoning cheating at all and he mentioned VAR as a potential vehicle for encouraging this over analysing of the game. Which really is more about the bigger picture of the sport and not so much to do with this one specific incident involving Dele and his unfortunate 'slip'. :-0
Hot Tottingham
07/02/2018 17:57:00
0
There are occasions where a dive is necessary to prevent a potential leg breaker of a tackle, there were several occasions when Gareth Bale had a choice between a booking or weeks off injured. The other thing that may emphasise the decisions that players make is the obvious incompetence of the current bunch of PL referees.
Frank
07/02/2018 19:17:00
0
I think Pochettino has taken unnecessary risks with the number of changes (10) that he has made for tonight. I hope he hasn't got it all wrong.
Frank
07/02/2018 19:20:00
0
So, no double winning Spurs player ever fouled or deceived a ref to gain an advantage David? It's an honourable attitude that Danny had but realistically, it just doesn't hold sway. Hot Tottingham
Sorry HT, I wasn't at the computer for the past hours, but in a dentist's chair. Wasn't able to converse from there. lol
obviously I was not saying that no Spurs player ever cheated, just that I dton't think this is the Spurs way, so far as I'm concerned. I'd rather not win something that to cheat to do it. I think the world is a better place when people think that way. In general I don't repect people who don't respect people, especially when they don't respect themselves. And liars and cheats are not respecting themselves. I think Danny Blanchflower was right in what he said. I hope Delli Alli isn't diving and, if he is, I hope he grows out of it as he grows up. I'm not suggesting we toss him aside, just help educate him so that he can be more self-repectful.
David O'Brien
07/02/2018 21:22:00
0
In the context of modern day football I think the word 'cheating' is a bit extreme. It’s more a case of bending the rules to breaking point and letting the officials decide what happens next. If we wanted to be really pedantic we could say that every foul that’s committed is cheating .... and it would be true! Every player who has committed a foul could have decided not to make the tackle but how would that work!
Geofspurs
08/02/2018 01:24:00
0
The point about diving is that it is a deliberate breaking of the rules. One dives and one knows it. Other fouls sometimes are similarly deliberate, but most are not. A tough tackle is just that, going up to the limit of what is allowed, and possible passing the limit. But a diver knows that he is diving, going to the ground for the sake of going to the ground and obtaining a penalty. The deliberation of it is different from a tough tackle that is not intended per se to cross the boundary.
David O'Brien
08/02/2018 01:47:00
0
David .... Hhen you 'take one for the team' it's no different than diving, and how many times do we see defenders taking one for the team.
Geofspurs
08/02/2018 02:41:00
0
The only difference is that they usually happen at opposite ends of the park.
Geofspurs
08/02/2018 02:43:00
0
'When' not Hhen (lol)
Geofspurs
08/02/2018 03:06:00
0

I don't approve of diving. I don't like the so called professional foul, (taking one for the team). I don't like players gesticulating that an opposition player should be carded. Or, attempting to manipulate the officials into a decision, or, the deceiving of the ref in any way. I don't like all the tugging 'n' hugging in the box at corners and free-kicks. I don't like players feigning injury after the slightest of knocks. I don't like players kicking players, elbowing players, pushing players or spitting at players. The pulling of shirts or shorts is a no, no. Biting is well out of order! Time wasting gets my goat. And Fergie time? What was that all about? Even the managers from the sidelines 'cheat'! Supporters (from the stands) blow whistles and shout penalty, when it was no penalty. And, I bet even Harry Kane, on occasion, has dived to gain an unfair advantage. Fair play to the lad?

Supporters constantly moan about Spurs' recent lack of trophies. But, it wasn't so long ago that we used to walk away with fair play awards. Nice! Folks were also saying around that time, and for years before that... That Tottenham had no backbone, no fighting spirit. No Balls! How the hell do you play football without balls?!

Maybe we should just do the honourable thing, be gentleman, politely shake hands with the opposition and concede defeat before we've even kick-off.

"After you, sir". "No, my man, after you"!

Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 07:02:00
0

That's another thing that pundits are hypocritical about. They see "taking one for the team" as an often necessary evil and will often ask why a player didn't do so when they had the opportunity to. The phrase even suggests that it's almost an honourable action in itself. Otherwise known as the 'professional foul'. It's considered acceptable.

Life, living and the interaction with other humans, and even the flora and fauna on this beautiful (and ugly) planet of ours should always be about respect. Sadly and unfortunately this is far from the reality of it all. Football is no different. It's just not cricket you know. Anyone for tennis? ;-)

Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 07:14:00
0
I think the difference between diving and taking one for the team is the deceptive element. The player "taking one for the team" is not trying to deceive the referee and usually picks up a deserved yellow. While the player who dives is trying to con the referee, sometimes getting an opponent unfairly sent off. Theres also exaggerating the effect of a foul (as Lamela did vs Liverpool) which isn't diving, but making sure the referee spots that a foul was committed. Different levels to which some I am more lenient towards than others, but I don't think im necessarily being hypocritical.
Guyver
08/02/2018 07:37:00
0

No, that's true, Guyver. That's not hypocritical as such. But the hypocrisy in all this does exist.

When I played regularly and for many years, I can honestly say that I never knowingly cheated. And, I never complained to a ref when he got it wrong. I just got on with playing the game. Many of my team mates didn't necessarily approve! But, I don't think I was the only 'honest one'. I didn't change when one or two suggested I make the most of a foul or whatever. It just wasn't in me to cheat, or should I say deceive or to be clever. I didn't consider myself to be honourable or gentlemanly in this. But, maybe I was somewhat naive.

Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 08:02:00
0
**I don't think "it is" necessarily being hypocritical
Guyver
08/02/2018 08:02:00
0
Hot Tottingham, I was the same. In one game, a teammate criticised me for not going down when challenged in the box to win a pen. Moments later, the referee put his arm around me as I was adjusting my boots and thanked me for not going down unneccassarily. Its just in some players nature to do it.
Guyver
08/02/2018 08:06:00
0
One thing I will commend Pochettino for is that he never complains about any decision that may have gone against us. He has in fact been supportive of refs in as much as he has said they are human, prone to mistakes and have a tough job on their hands. This, I think is quite honourable given the Mourinho's, Wenger's and others constant complaining and criticising of officials and opposition players, in the cut-throat world of PL football.
Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 08:41:00
0
In the end, we can debate it forever and everyone will have a different degree of sensitivity to diving, but I believe the brunt of the blame lays with the PL. If you want to eradicate diving, make it so ridiculously punishable that no player will risk it. If a dive was equal to a 10-match suspension, nobody would dive. I don't think MP would defend it then. Until they do that (if they ever do), players will weigh the pros and cons and in some cases, decide that diving is worth the risk.
BelgianSpur
08/02/2018 10:44:00
0
I repeat, MP didn't defend diving. He never has. I wish folks would stop seeing and hearing what simply hasn't been said by our manager....... Not just you BS, Everyone! Chinese whispers spread nonsense and nonsense begets yet more nonsense....
Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 10:57:00
0
All misses the point. Dele dives. Dele gets caught diving, repeatedly. After a while no referee is going to award him a penalty even if it was a merited. So how exactly does that benefit Spurs ?
jod
08/02/2018 11:00:00
0
VAR will no doubt find the right solution in the future if the referee makes a bad call.
Geofspurs
08/02/2018 11:25:00
0
This is what Poch actually said on this question: “Football is about trying to trick your opponent - yes or no? Tactics – what does ‘tactic’ mean? When you do tactics, it is to try to trick the opponent. You play on the right, but you finish on the left. Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, we all congratulated a player when he tricks the referee like this. That is the football that I was in love with when I was a child. Yes, in Argentina, but in England too. You believe that in England you were honest and always perfect?” If that's not an endorsement of cheating I don't know what is. Nothing about doing it regretfully because others do it. To him it's a great part of the game. Yes, referees are right to punish it when they see it but he is happy to see players get away with it if they can. Rather like those who were delighted when the Great Train robber Ronnie Biggs slipped away to enjoy his spoils in Rio de Janeiro. If he had left it at tricking opponents I would have been more sympathetic. But conning referees is something else entirely, particularly when they will no doubt keep his words in mind when they have to make a difficult decision affecting our team. To me that's not great leadership, more so when you consider that many kids will be taking their lead from him on this matter.
Stan Rosenthal
08/02/2018 13:30:00
0
Reputation matters. Self esteem matters. Pride matters. I don't want to win and feel shame about how it happened.
David O'Brien
08/02/2018 14:54:00
0
I personally read it like Stan. It may not be an outright apology for diving, but he definitely seems very lenient on the matter, calling it trickery and saying it' the type of football he was in love with.
BelgianSpur
08/02/2018 15:48:00
0
Where the hell in that quote does MP condone cheating? He doesn't. He is simply referring to the English game of football he remembers and used to watch and the hypocrisy of calling the skullduggery in modern football a foreign affliction that was imported from abroad, as though any kind of trickery etc., never used to happen in British football. He's right. Hence the words in the article about the jingoism and hypocrisy that Shannon is referring to. British pundits (Lineker) talking about it as though none of this ever happened in his day..... There always has been the inference via the British media and particularly with English football supporters that it was them damned foreigners that introduced diving and such to these waters and whatever other forms of so called 'cheating'..... It's not true....... And anyone saying stuff like it was the British that introduced a sense of fair play to the world is just another load of jingoistic bull crap that is based on nothing but a superiority complex from the ruling classes of my country that has no basis in reality whatsoever. Fair play? Yeah man, tell that to the 8 year old lad cleaning all the poisonous crap from your big ol' ******** country mansion chimney old chap! Pass the cap! ..... No mate, It just ain't cricket, alright!
Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 19:46:00
0
Shannon. Please let me know if I'm talking crap or not. Or is everyone else right and I have stupidly got it all wrong. If I am wrong then I apologise. And what a complete waste of my words and time!
Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 19:49:00
0
Stan, if you think I've written what I've written before reading MP's words then you are mistaken my man. I do not write willy willy, off the top of my head!
Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 19:51:00
0

Why did you chose to leave out these parts of his quotes?

"‘The problem now is that we are so sensitive about the situation. And then we are so focused on Dele Alli. ‘If you try to run on the pitch, sometimes you go down and you say, “Oh, because I was focusing on the ball…”

‘But in the end, it was clear. It was a yellow card, the referee was right and perfect. It’s too much sometimes. There is such a focus on this type of situation that I think is a minimal issue. ‘Of course, he (Alli) is not perfect. Nobody is perfect. Of course, he is a clever boy, he is a little bit nasty.

‘Football is a creative sport, in which you need the talent that grows in a very intelligent person, a very smart brain. And now we are so focused on minimal details.’

‘The referees are humans too and sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not right. I like this type of football.

‘My worry is this: of course if you dive and the referee saw you, you are punished. Of course and he deserves it. But don’t go more crazy.’

In other words: Yes he dived, he was wrong to do so. The ref punished him and he was right to do so. That is that. Why make a mountain from a molehill? Leave it. It's done!

Hot Tottingham
08/02/2018 20:03:00
0
Pochettino is maybe speaking a little from experience as he was personally the victim of an English diver by the name of Michael Owen in the 2002 World Cup. I don't recall the uproar in England when it happened though. Arguably Owen also dived against Argentina in the 98 World Cup to win a penalty as well. Maybe he is only pointing out the hypocrisy..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyiMy5TJcMQ
Guyver
08/02/2018 22:50:00
0
Actually it clearly is related to the Owen incident, as here are MP's similar comments in 2016.

"It was 15 years ago when Owen dived," Pochettino said. "Don't believe that English football is fair play always because Owen jumped like he was in a swimming pool. Come on. I didn't touch him. I promise you. It's true. "I think today football is more global. England is more like European football. Now we have the influence of the Latin people that try to cheat always. "Maybe you were more pure 20, 25, 30 years ago. Now you are like us." Pochettino explained how when he came through the ranks at Newell's Old Boys in Argentina they even used to practice diving in training. "In Argentina, yes, the people sometimes practice that, it's true," Pochettino said. "But many years ago. Now I don't know. But when I was a player always it was part of training to try to cheat. At Newell's, many, many years ago it was part of practice."
Guyver
08/02/2018 22:55:00
0
For me, there are 2 separate subjects: MP's view on trickery/cheating/diving/whatever we want to call it, and the so-called moral high ground that the English football world have about it. On the first subject, when MP says that "Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, we all congratulated a player when he tricks the referee like this", the "we" clearly implies that he includes himself in that group, in my opinion. I personally have never congratulated a player for "tricking the referee", but maybe MP has/would. As for MP pointing out that there is a lot of hypocrisy about the subject in England, you'd have to agree. Liverpool fans defending Luis Suarez despite some of his actions being indefensible, for example. MP should have stopped at calling the press hypocrites. When he goes on to say the rest, it can be perceived as an apology for "tricking the referee", which I personally don't agree with. VAR couldn't come soon enough.
BelgianSpur
09/02/2018 08:10:00
0
BelgianSpur, yes, it sounds like he was talking in past tense there, stating a fact, ie that is the culture he grew up in, where diving was even practised on the training grounds. Nothing particularly revealing there, as it is common knowledge that it is/was more acceptable in Latin football. He did attempt to clarify his comments in the Arsenal press conference and state that he is against "cheating", although given his background, he probably is more tolerant than someone like Roy Hodgson or Sam Allardyce would be. On the flip side, due to cultural differences, Pochettino is possibly less tolerant of potentially leg breaking tackles. Something that historically, was maybe more acceptable in English football.
Guyver
09/02/2018 10:38:00
0
HT, my apologies, I have only now seen your request for me to comment on your posts. I must say I generally agree with you.
Shannon
09/02/2018 15:13:00
0
I think that MP should've retained his Saints' interpreter.
Hot Tottingham
10/02/2018 08:58:00
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